C152 Landing
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MJ, are you sersiously telleing me you have never followed through with a student!!?
Some French C150s had it [no nosewheel steering], too - I learned in one.
I 150 I was took care of was released from inspection. I test flew it. It would not track straight while taxiing, or on the runway. With some difficulty in directional control, I got it airborne. One the nosewheel extended, and the centering cam centered it, one rudder pedal went completely limp, and the plane yawed. The mechanic who had fixed to plane had reassembled the two steering pushrods left for right. One is about two inches longer than the other (to account for the two rudder pedal torque tubes being one behind the other). Thus the spring from one overpowered the other, and completely fouled the rudder control system. He was quite a while making it right, but when he did, it flew fine.
I wouldn't advocate bull****ting them. Just tell the truth... Student pilot unsure of position. No "practice" in there. If you were an instructor where I worked as CFI and FIC instructor, I'd have to have a word in your shell about this advice G! Agreed, however that, as BT used to say, "it's good to talk".
But certainly using navaids or talking to D&D if lost during a QXC (or any other flight), whatever navaid or whatever wording is used, is a lot better than flying around getting more lost, more worried, and potentially getting into a nasty mess. So, I'm only apologising for the specific wording I used - not the principle.
I'll add in, tell your instructor what you did afterwards so that it can be properly debriefed.
Happy chaps?
G
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First time I ever taxied an a/c was after landing from my ex. 14. Seriously. I never had the courage to ask my slightly un-hinged instructor if I could taxi the brick (aka G-CGHM). It's not rocket science though, and I taxied back to the parking area after landing on the slightly downhill 08 at Elstree no prob.
Who can guess my Instructors name ?
Who can guess my Instructors name ?
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I can't begin to guess his real name, but I think one who doesn't let students taxi an aircraft until ex. 14 would tend to call himself "God".
Whether his perception matches reality though...
Whether his perception matches reality though...
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wow... this is quite a thread drift!
I agree that we shouldn't condem this poor instructor without hearing his side. If you asked each of my students how many more flights until they go solo, I'm sure they would give a very different answer to me. Some would say many less than I would, others would say more. This is simply because they do not know the syllabus inside out like I do, and they have no scale to judge their own ability by.
So when the OP says he is close to solo, he may well mean that his instructor intends to send him solo after the next flight. On the other hand, he could have quite a few flights left to do, fully covering flapless, glide and other circuit emergencies. On the other hand, he may simply have 11 hours and think that everyone goes solo at 12?
I agree that the instructing standards are generally quite poor. I know quite a few people who see it purely as a stepping stone to bigger things, and I hate to see them doing any more than trial lessons.
I agree that we shouldn't condem this poor instructor without hearing his side. If you asked each of my students how many more flights until they go solo, I'm sure they would give a very different answer to me. Some would say many less than I would, others would say more. This is simply because they do not know the syllabus inside out like I do, and they have no scale to judge their own ability by.
So when the OP says he is close to solo, he may well mean that his instructor intends to send him solo after the next flight. On the other hand, he could have quite a few flights left to do, fully covering flapless, glide and other circuit emergencies. On the other hand, he may simply have 11 hours and think that everyone goes solo at 12?
I agree that the instructing standards are generally quite poor. I know quite a few people who see it purely as a stepping stone to bigger things, and I hate to see them doing any more than trial lessons.
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Why is it considered bad form to criticise an Instructor?
During my training for NPPL I was not given stall training till well after ex14 & then I had to ask for it.
I was never gotten lost by any Instructor to find my pos, & never got lost during Nav training. Did 29hrs of correctly planned & executed nav trips including diversions. (I enjoy maths). Never called D&D for exercise, only mention of D&D was to tell me their frequency.
As a result of the latter I worry about finding where I am if I ever do get lost, 200 hrs later. But I keep meaning to call them for exercise one day, all by myself.
As for this "Follow me through" business I never learnt a thing from that, how do you "feel" what someone else is doing with the thing?
Early on I asked if I could sit in the a/c for half an hr to SEE where the brake pedals were, find all the knobs & switches BY MYSELF. I had arrived early enough to do this. Five mins into it my Instructor arrived with "Right let's go!". Continued fumbling around with feet trying to figure how the bloody brakes worked!
I once asked an Instructor what's the formula to calculate lift? "Half Ro V squared". He then walked away. Fine, my car at 60mph squared X 7.5psi = 27000. If that is pounds of lift my car should fly quite well!
Having ranted that, I must admit I did have a few very good instructors who could teach rather than just wear the sunglasses, who waited till I screwed up & then asked me what I thought I'd done wrong etc.
I often wished Instructors would consider that we may be rookie pilots but a lot of us are not rookie people & can actually understand english so please don't think we are all, as one Instructor put it "Solid bone from the neck up". I will admit I allowed myself to be pushed through the mill without questioning rather than stir the ****e & be considered a troublemaker.
My own observations.
During my training for NPPL I was not given stall training till well after ex14 & then I had to ask for it.
I was never gotten lost by any Instructor to find my pos, & never got lost during Nav training. Did 29hrs of correctly planned & executed nav trips including diversions. (I enjoy maths). Never called D&D for exercise, only mention of D&D was to tell me their frequency.
As a result of the latter I worry about finding where I am if I ever do get lost, 200 hrs later. But I keep meaning to call them for exercise one day, all by myself.
As for this "Follow me through" business I never learnt a thing from that, how do you "feel" what someone else is doing with the thing?
Early on I asked if I could sit in the a/c for half an hr to SEE where the brake pedals were, find all the knobs & switches BY MYSELF. I had arrived early enough to do this. Five mins into it my Instructor arrived with "Right let's go!". Continued fumbling around with feet trying to figure how the bloody brakes worked!
I once asked an Instructor what's the formula to calculate lift? "Half Ro V squared". He then walked away. Fine, my car at 60mph squared X 7.5psi = 27000. If that is pounds of lift my car should fly quite well!
Having ranted that, I must admit I did have a few very good instructors who could teach rather than just wear the sunglasses, who waited till I screwed up & then asked me what I thought I'd done wrong etc.
I often wished Instructors would consider that we may be rookie pilots but a lot of us are not rookie people & can actually understand english so please don't think we are all, as one Instructor put it "Solid bone from the neck up". I will admit I allowed myself to be pushed through the mill without questioning rather than stir the ****e & be considered a troublemaker.
My own observations.
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Sounds like you had some of the worst instructors available. If the OP instructor's is as unapproachable as that, I would certainly recommend changing schools.
I always try to be as open to questions as possible. Usually after ex4, or possibly after ex6, I just sit in the aircraft with the student and ask them if there's anything they're not sure of and want me to explain, be it the suction gauge, the alternate static source, anything that I may not have already explained in full. I try to keep this going throughout the course, and any specific questions I would then refer them to the relevant section of the POH to build their familiarity with this document. It also builds in the student the attitude that there are no stupid questions, so they won't be too shy to clarify something that they think might be deemed obvious.
Perhaps I assume this is how all instructors go about their trade, but if the OP is getting less than this for his money he should certainly be talking to the school about it.
I always try to be as open to questions as possible. Usually after ex4, or possibly after ex6, I just sit in the aircraft with the student and ask them if there's anything they're not sure of and want me to explain, be it the suction gauge, the alternate static source, anything that I may not have already explained in full. I try to keep this going throughout the course, and any specific questions I would then refer them to the relevant section of the POH to build their familiarity with this document. It also builds in the student the attitude that there are no stupid questions, so they won't be too shy to clarify something that they think might be deemed obvious.
Perhaps I assume this is how all instructors go about their trade, but if the OP is getting less than this for his money he should certainly be talking to the school about it.
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I did gliding many moons ago before the power, so stalling was not an issue to me. I had several gliding instructors who were far more on the ball. One in particular, had only one eye, once we were flying his Jodel, first time I had been in a powered a/c (GA), on downwind he couldn't see too well, & said "Sod it, you do it". Not one to miss a chance I certainly did. Closed the throttle, considered it a glider. Today, perhaps not the best of ideas, but the a/c was & still is perfecly serviceable. I have no doubt that had I been about to screw up he was capable of putting things right. The only time he ever grabbed the a/c from me was during short final once at 400ft, he rolled the thing losing 200ft in a couple of seconds, said "You have" just as two Tornados screamed over us at 4/500ft!
A week later two Yanks came & apologised & bought us all a pint. Happy days.
A week later two Yanks came & apologised & bought us all a pint. Happy days.
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I don't know if we are ever going to hear again from the Original Poster, I can't help thinking it may have been a windup.....however, plenty of points for discussion have arisen!
I can still remember, when I first started to learn to fly a glider at Booker I was anything but apt. Experienced instructors - almost never had the same one twice, probably thought me a hopeless case. Judging a landing was the worst trial, for me and the instructor. So on a family visit back to the US, I went to a strip in Maryland, and flew in a Cessna 152 with Instructor John Cumberpatch. On this particular airfield, prevailing wind was 90 degrees cross. John never let me actually touch down, but let me get quite close before he chickened out and took over.....
Eventually, back at Booker, dear old Dudley Steynor, who used to teach there in Tiger Months back in WWII, managed to teach me to land. After 65 airtow launches, I KNEW I WAS READY FOR SOLO, and sure enough, my instructor, Dave Oddy, climbed out the back seat, did up the straps, said "Now go by yourself, and I want to see you do a couple of practice stalls and recovery." What a moment! I said to myself "I will do exactly what I like without that B in the back seat telling me what to do!" Joy!
Since then, with PPL, and a few other ratings, I have done a fair bit of instructing in gliders, and find that when a student is ready to send safely solo, there is no doubt in my mind, he is probably flying better than me by now! But he doesn't necessarily have to know how everything works.
Couple of questions : DAR, you were pretty brave to take off with wonky steering in that 150 - tradition has it the most dangerous aircraft is just released from maintenance! And Mad Jock, how on earth do you teach a bear to **** in the woods?
I can still remember, when I first started to learn to fly a glider at Booker I was anything but apt. Experienced instructors - almost never had the same one twice, probably thought me a hopeless case. Judging a landing was the worst trial, for me and the instructor. So on a family visit back to the US, I went to a strip in Maryland, and flew in a Cessna 152 with Instructor John Cumberpatch. On this particular airfield, prevailing wind was 90 degrees cross. John never let me actually touch down, but let me get quite close before he chickened out and took over.....
Eventually, back at Booker, dear old Dudley Steynor, who used to teach there in Tiger Months back in WWII, managed to teach me to land. After 65 airtow launches, I KNEW I WAS READY FOR SOLO, and sure enough, my instructor, Dave Oddy, climbed out the back seat, did up the straps, said "Now go by yourself, and I want to see you do a couple of practice stalls and recovery." What a moment! I said to myself "I will do exactly what I like without that B in the back seat telling me what to do!" Joy!
Since then, with PPL, and a few other ratings, I have done a fair bit of instructing in gliders, and find that when a student is ready to send safely solo, there is no doubt in my mind, he is probably flying better than me by now! But he doesn't necessarily have to know how everything works.
Couple of questions : DAR, you were pretty brave to take off with wonky steering in that 150 - tradition has it the most dangerous aircraft is just released from maintenance! And Mad Jock, how on earth do you teach a bear to **** in the woods?
Last edited by mary meagher; 10th Jan 2012 at 21:53.
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very carefully.
And the quickest way is by doing nothing what so ever.
Instructors that couldn't teach one, cause the student to take longer to learn than if they had been left to work it out for themselves.
You can inherit students from this type with 20-40 hours in the circuit with 4-5 hours for the previous exercises. When you dig a bit deeper a circuit lesson was comprised of 1-2 circuits which were "dual" controlled in the flare and much of the approach. Then a demonstration usually a low level bad wx circuit with steep turns at every corner just to get the plane back to finals. The brief is "thats how you do it" then the rest of the hour is spent with the instructor getting more and more fustrated while the student gets more and more dispondant.
A spell out side the circuit going through the previous exercise and making sure they can trim properly usually cures everything.
There are students though that are quite happy with this method, the more talented ones, but most arn't. And then you have the issue that they then think its the normal way to teach someone to fly when the wheel turns and they are then in the RHS.
Note:
Not all students that are in the circuit that long because of instructor issues. There are a selection of students which have other issues usually to do with brain farts and consistency. They are denoted by not managing to link up all the phases of the circuit without making a mistake. Very often its a different mistake every time. Which is a far harder problem to solve.
And the quickest way is by doing nothing what so ever.
Instructors that couldn't teach one, cause the student to take longer to learn than if they had been left to work it out for themselves.
You can inherit students from this type with 20-40 hours in the circuit with 4-5 hours for the previous exercises. When you dig a bit deeper a circuit lesson was comprised of 1-2 circuits which were "dual" controlled in the flare and much of the approach. Then a demonstration usually a low level bad wx circuit with steep turns at every corner just to get the plane back to finals. The brief is "thats how you do it" then the rest of the hour is spent with the instructor getting more and more fustrated while the student gets more and more dispondant.
A spell out side the circuit going through the previous exercise and making sure they can trim properly usually cures everything.
There are students though that are quite happy with this method, the more talented ones, but most arn't. And then you have the issue that they then think its the normal way to teach someone to fly when the wheel turns and they are then in the RHS.
Note:
Not all students that are in the circuit that long because of instructor issues. There are a selection of students which have other issues usually to do with brain farts and consistency. They are denoted by not managing to link up all the phases of the circuit without making a mistake. Very often its a different mistake every time. Which is a far harder problem to solve.
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BOSE-X
Quote- When you are flaring and about 3' from the runway, just about to land, when the nose wheel touches down, does it castor and if so do you have to control it .
Why do you just read the bits of a post that supports your thinking on the issue?, clearly the guy has failed to understand if the NLG is Centers, Castors or has to be steered as it touches down. this looks like poor understanding of the system and hence poor instruction because the instructor has failed to check if the guy knows the system.
It's all about quality control, teach, practice and then check.
Why do you just read the bits of a post that supports your thinking on the issue?, clearly the guy has failed to understand if the NLG is Centers, Castors or has to be steered as it touches down. this looks like poor understanding of the system and hence poor instruction because the instructor has failed to check if the guy knows the system.
It's all about quality control, teach, practice and then check.
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MJ
I remember finding it difficult to get the thing trimmed while downwind, then having to do it all again on base leg. "Trim for 90knots/60 etc". I now have my own bug smasher which I can trim to 60 downwind which gives me more time to think/look. Also a bit of thread drift, you mention low level sharp turns & such. Why is it that flying schools (civilian) teach this square circuit thing? I operate out of a farm strip & am teaching myself to do the continuous radius turn from downwind to final & it feels safer, no sharp "dead mans corner" stuff. Opinion??
I remember finding it difficult to get the thing trimmed while downwind, then having to do it all again on base leg. "Trim for 90knots/60 etc". I now have my own bug smasher which I can trim to 60 downwind which gives me more time to think/look. Also a bit of thread drift, you mention low level sharp turns & such. Why is it that flying schools (civilian) teach this square circuit thing? I operate out of a farm strip & am teaching myself to do the continuous radius turn from downwind to final & it feels safer, no sharp "dead mans corner" stuff. Opinion??
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I believe and might be wrong buts its to do with high wing aircraft. And lack of good look out with the wing dipped all the way round. Where as square work for both high and low winged aircraft.
There is something wrong though with the instructor throwing it around at 500ft doing 60 deg banked turns in order to expedite the circuit ending with the student brain dead as you wang it round on finals while haulling all the flap in and suddenly ending up configured, on speed and on profile at 200ft.
Yes piece of piss to do when you know what your doing and current on the machine but it doesn't exactly create a good learning enviroment or for that matter teach good habits.
There is something wrong though with the instructor throwing it around at 500ft doing 60 deg banked turns in order to expedite the circuit ending with the student brain dead as you wang it round on finals while haulling all the flap in and suddenly ending up configured, on speed and on profile at 200ft.
Yes piece of piss to do when you know what your doing and current on the machine but it doesn't exactly create a good learning enviroment or for that matter teach good habits.
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I'll go for that, my Emeraude does have a low wing which I agree helps.
I did once do it at Perth (152) from a bit too close & was convinced I had missed the runway (right turn onto 27) I was extremely surprised when I rolled out bang on centre 150ft, pure luck because I couldn't see a thing. My daughter was impressed!!!
Edit: What bad/good habits?
I did once do it at Perth (152) from a bit too close & was convinced I had missed the runway (right turn onto 27) I was extremely surprised when I rolled out bang on centre 150ft, pure luck because I couldn't see a thing. My daughter was impressed!!!
Edit: What bad/good habits?
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Quote- When you are flaring and about 3' from the runway, just about to land, when the nose wheel touches down, does it castor and if so do you have to control it .
Why do you just read the bits of a post that supports your thinking on the issue?, clearly the guy has failed to understand if the NLG is Centers, Castors or has to be steered as it touches down. this looks like poor understanding of the system and hence poor instruction because the instructor has failed to check if the guy knows the system.
It's all about quality control, teach, practice and then check.
Why do you just read the bits of a post that supports your thinking on the issue?, clearly the guy has failed to understand if the NLG is Centers, Castors or has to be steered as it touches down. this looks like poor understanding of the system and hence poor instruction because the instructor has failed to check if the guy knows the system.
It's all about quality control, teach, practice and then check.
How much time do you have as an Instructor?
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Bose-x
The first part of the post as you say looks like the instructor is hovering on the controls, the second part is clearly a technical question that shows a lack of student knowlage about the nose wheel steering system.
As I am new on these forums I am assuming that you are working with a EASA level 3 English and have not fully grasped that the second part of the post was a question.
As I am new on these forums I am assuming that you are working with a EASA level 3 English and have not fully grasped that the second part of the post was a question.
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As I am new on these forums I am assuming that you are working with a EASA level 3 English and have not fully grasped that the second part of the post was a question.
If you bothered to read any of my posts on this subject, I have merely pointed out that we should not be quick to judge the Instructor without both sides of the story. At the moment it is all very one sided and looking at the lack of response from the original poster seems likely to be a troll.
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Even if it is a troll.
Its a good reminder to the 200 odd FI(R) issued in 2009-2010 to keep there sodding hands and feet off the controls when the student is flying.
Luddite give it a rest Bose X knows his ****e we might not agree on some minor style points but that doesn't detract from the fact that the victim/student is either given a fair test or quality training.
Its a good reminder to the 200 odd FI(R) issued in 2009-2010 to keep there sodding hands and feet off the controls when the student is flying.
Luddite give it a rest Bose X knows his ****e we might not agree on some minor style points but that doesn't detract from the fact that the victim/student is either given a fair test or quality training.
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Before I did my first solo (only about five months ago) I remember wondering how much of the work I was doing during approach and landing, and how much my instructor was doing. So I asked him how much control input he was making with his feet and he said "none".
I didn't have the time or mental capacity to concentrate on landing the plane while simultaneously looking at what my instructor was doing. I'm guessing the OP just had a similar question to me and may not have had the sense or confidence to ask his/her instructor.
Either that or the post is a troll...
I didn't have the time or mental capacity to concentrate on landing the plane while simultaneously looking at what my instructor was doing. I'm guessing the OP just had a similar question to me and may not have had the sense or confidence to ask his/her instructor.
Either that or the post is a troll...
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As a mere FI/FE(A), I certainly have my feet near the pedals at all times during the flare/landing. Call it habit, sense of self preservation or what you will. However, there is a big difference between shadowing control inputs (together with the occasional inadvertent application of resistance as I have failed to anticipate the actions of the student) and making a positive input on the controls.
There is one other thing to consider in a 152. Anyone over about 5'8" has little option but to have his feet near the pedals save his knees getting in the way of the yoke. That is unless the seat is fully back on the rails but then how does the instructor manage to take control when necessary?
There is one other thing to consider in a 152. Anyone over about 5'8" has little option but to have his feet near the pedals save his knees getting in the way of the yoke. That is unless the seat is fully back on the rails but then how does the instructor manage to take control when necessary?