GA Flying...is it safe ?!
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Flying must be safe compared to living.
Many of those who fly & then stop flying, survive the flying.
Everyone lives, but no-one who lives has yet survived.
Therefore there is a 100% death rate just by living, regardless of what one does.
That will do for me!!
Many of those who fly & then stop flying, survive the flying.
Everyone lives, but no-one who lives has yet survived.
Therefore there is a 100% death rate just by living, regardless of what one does.
I don't believe any statistics! I spend my time in the cockpit (and life in general) looking for holes in the swiss cheese, so I can do my darnedest to prevent them lining up.
For you more inexperienced guys...
Ask yourself...
How many people do I know who have been killed or injured on the road?
Then ask yourself...
How many people do I know who have been killed or injured flying?
Wait until you have a few years flying before asking yourself these questions.The answer will be very, very, revealing.
You will no longer believe any of that bull about the drive to the Airfield...
Ask yourself...
How many people do I know who have been killed or injured on the road?
Then ask yourself...
How many people do I know who have been killed or injured flying?
Wait until you have a few years flying before asking yourself these questions.The answer will be very, very, revealing.
You will no longer believe any of that bull about the drive to the Airfield...
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Shepherd's prayer, heard on intercom just before Alan Shepherd's first spaceflight:
"Dear Lord, please don't let me screw up".
"Dear Lord, please don't let me screw up".
The stats on the number of folk who die in bed are skewed by the fact than when people are very ill, they often go to bed.
And to the person who said 'don't breed and you'll help save the planet'; don't worry about the planet.... it will get on just fine without us.
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Better safe than brave!!!
It's lack of common sense that kills.
It's get-home-itis that kills.
It's busting personal minimums that kills.
It's not getting recurrent training that kills.
It's the heroism glamour macho culture that kills.
It's the "Oh, you FLY??? How BRAVE!" image that kills.
Steering an airplane is easy. Knowing when not to fly will save your life. Don't ever get coerced into flying outside your personal envelope without an instructor beside you.
Of the people I know that died or were seriously injured flying, only one had an accident in which pilot error was not a factor. And almost all of the deaths were weather related.
And yes, I know many more people who died flying that I know people who died driving (any kind of vehicle)... but to make that statistic a little less skewed, there are more people who can say the exact opposite. So what does that prove?
And how many people admit to having had very close shaves that could easily have killed them if they had been less lucky? Who hasn't had an ILAFFT moment...
Flying is dangerous if you don't impose a safety culture upon yourself. Better safe than brave!!!
It's get-home-itis that kills.
It's busting personal minimums that kills.
It's not getting recurrent training that kills.
It's the heroism glamour macho culture that kills.
It's the "Oh, you FLY??? How BRAVE!" image that kills.
Steering an airplane is easy. Knowing when not to fly will save your life. Don't ever get coerced into flying outside your personal envelope without an instructor beside you.
Of the people I know that died or were seriously injured flying, only one had an accident in which pilot error was not a factor. And almost all of the deaths were weather related.
And yes, I know many more people who died flying that I know people who died driving (any kind of vehicle)... but to make that statistic a little less skewed, there are more people who can say the exact opposite. So what does that prove?
And how many people admit to having had very close shaves that could easily have killed them if they had been less lucky? Who hasn't had an ILAFFT moment...
Flying is dangerous if you don't impose a safety culture upon yourself. Better safe than brave!!!
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I fly by the old adage mentioned on these forums before but I heard first from an experienced pilot,
"A superior pilot is one who uses their superior knowledge so they don't have to use their superior skills".
One of the best pieces of advice I have ever been given and one which I think about often as I am training. In other words, I believe that the more highly trained you are before you are awarded the privileges of the PPL, the more talented, and capable pilot you are in the end, the more aware you are of what could go wrong and why and therefore the more capable of dealing with it if it does happen.
Much the same could be said of driving - although there aren't the checks in place to check drivers (frankly I wish there were, who hasn't seen the dangerous/stupid driving particularly on motorways such as the M25?!!) The more goes it takes to past your driving test, the more likely you are to be a better driver...Theres more to bump into when driving, more idiots less aware of safety...things called lorries....and more speed cameras.....
Know which form of transport i'd choose
"A superior pilot is one who uses their superior knowledge so they don't have to use their superior skills".
One of the best pieces of advice I have ever been given and one which I think about often as I am training. In other words, I believe that the more highly trained you are before you are awarded the privileges of the PPL, the more talented, and capable pilot you are in the end, the more aware you are of what could go wrong and why and therefore the more capable of dealing with it if it does happen.
Much the same could be said of driving - although there aren't the checks in place to check drivers (frankly I wish there were, who hasn't seen the dangerous/stupid driving particularly on motorways such as the M25?!!) The more goes it takes to past your driving test, the more likely you are to be a better driver...Theres more to bump into when driving, more idiots less aware of safety...things called lorries....and more speed cameras.....
Know which form of transport i'd choose
Moderator
flying outside your personal envelope without an instructor beside you.
You're not going outside your personal envelope because there's an instructor beside you, but because you've briefed another competent pilot, and the two of you agree on the resulting envelope. Perhaps it's your envelope, perhaps that of the other pilot. I've had a couple of instructors sit beside me wide eyed, as I flew a required flight test maneuver. One later asked me to do a roll for him in the 172, I declined. He knew it was not within his envelope (very wise), Those circumstances were not within mine either.
No one plans to have an accident, so obviously for an accident to occur, something had to change, or otherwise not go according to plan. The better, and more broad thinking the plan is, the easier it is to follow, and thus less likely to result in an accident.
Do you plan for your flight to be safe? Do people plan for their drive to be safe? As a volunteer firefighter, I drive my car, and sometimes a fire truck, to car accidents. As I drive, I think to myself, "The person who jut did this before me crashed, what will I do differently?". Similarly, I used to fly into northern lakes to help recover wrecked floatplanes. That pilot just crashed while landing here, what will I do differently so I don't?".
Sometimes a few seconds of thought and planning, or at least enhanced awareness, makes a big difference in safety.
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Originally Posted by Pilot DAR
Well... I think I know the spirit of what you mean by instructor, but they have accidents too!
Going outside your personal envelope should actually be encouraged, under the proper conditions.
The problem is that many pilots lose sight of what their envelope is in reality, as opposed to what they believe their envelope is. Add marginal weather/pressures/ego/complacency/whatever and the risk increases. The best thing you can do is to be completely honest with yourself and not be afraid of looking "uncool" when you decide to stay on the ground.
I've had a couple of instructors sit beside me wide eyed, as I flew a required flight test maneuver.
Here's the obligatory reference for this discussion. Though since I last read it, I heard that the authors made some mistakes with their statistics so I guess one may choose not to believe it:
Journal of Personality and Social Psychology
1999, Vol. 77, No. 6. ] 121-1134
Copyright 1999 by the American Psychological Association, Inc.
0022-3514/99/S3.00
Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own
Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments
Justin Kruger and David Dunning
Cornell Univer
http://blog.bruceabernethy.com/mirror/unskilled.pdf
Journal of Personality and Social Psychology
1999, Vol. 77, No. 6. ] 121-1134
Copyright 1999 by the American Psychological Association, Inc.
0022-3514/99/S3.00
Unskilled and Unaware of It: How Difficulties in Recognizing One's Own
Incompetence Lead to Inflated Self-Assessments
Justin Kruger and David Dunning
Cornell Univer
http://blog.bruceabernethy.com/mirror/unskilled.pdf
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@abgd, thanks for the link. An interesting read.
Perhaps it is thanks to flying being perceived as "difficult" that gross overestimation of competence does not occur more often in low-time pilots, as they are more aware of the need to build their skills. But there is definitely a "danger zone" at which such overestimation occurs, and situations in which it might become life-threatening.
Especially when you are an aircraft owner, never train emergency procedures, and are blissfully unaware of the true state that your airplane is in (you may have paid for just the paperwork and the bare necessities)...
Not that one should lie awake worrying about what might go wrong, but a little caution is healthy.
Note: the studies are American, and the American education system having suffered two generations of dumbing down and positive thinking may have influenced the results)
Perhaps it is thanks to flying being perceived as "difficult" that gross overestimation of competence does not occur more often in low-time pilots, as they are more aware of the need to build their skills. But there is definitely a "danger zone" at which such overestimation occurs, and situations in which it might become life-threatening.
Especially when you are an aircraft owner, never train emergency procedures, and are blissfully unaware of the true state that your airplane is in (you may have paid for just the paperwork and the bare necessities)...
Not that one should lie awake worrying about what might go wrong, but a little caution is healthy.
Note: the studies are American, and the American education system having suffered two generations of dumbing down and positive thinking may have influenced the results)
Especially when you are an aircraft owner, never train emergency procedures, and are blissfully unaware of the true state that your airplane is in (you may have paid for just the paperwork and the bare necessities)...
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None of the above is necessarily correct. Many private owners do their own maintenance, and practise for emergencies. If you aren't renting you can take the time to train, the insurance and hangarage are paid, so it's just the petrol. And if the weather goes sour nobody is yelling at you to get the aircraft back.
It won't be just the petrol, there's the wear and maintenance on timed components, oil changes, etc. Otherwise you are perfectly right.
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If flying was perfectly safe would you still enjoy it the same as you do now? Surely part of the exhilaration of flying is down to the fact that it is dangerous. I'm not suggesting we are all adrenaline junkies but there is some part of us all that gets a kick from defying gravity. Is GA flying safe? No it isn't; how could it be? We didn't evolve to fly so we need a lot of gear to get us up into the sky and to keep us up in the sky. Is it safe enough to fly as much as you would like? Pretty much. When looking at statistics a 1/100,000 chance or whatever of dieing doesn't mean you won't die on your first trial flight within 20 minutes.
It's the danger involved and the fear it generates that keeps most pilots safe. If flying was safe pilots would be more dangerous. Just look at how some people drive on the road; perfectly awful. Not because driving is safe, but because those drivers perceive it to be. So I think if you are a pilot and you accept flying is dangerous, and you listen to your own fear when flying, you are probably as safe as you could possibly be. If that isn't safe enough for you than you probably should not be a pilot... just being alive, isn't enough for some of us though.
It's the danger involved and the fear it generates that keeps most pilots safe. If flying was safe pilots would be more dangerous. Just look at how some people drive on the road; perfectly awful. Not because driving is safe, but because those drivers perceive it to be. So I think if you are a pilot and you accept flying is dangerous, and you listen to your own fear when flying, you are probably as safe as you could possibly be. If that isn't safe enough for you than you probably should not be a pilot... just being alive, isn't enough for some of us though.
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Being an aircraft owner gives you considerable freedom, and like in most walks of life it is up to you whether you take that and use it to your best advantage, or use it as a rope to hang yourself with.
Aviation regulation around the world has never managed to get its head around this concept
Being an owner is just about the only way that you can fly a plane that's maintained to a high standard, with a zero tolerance to defects. It is not economical for a rental plane to be thus maintained, unless it is an extremely simple type.
Ownership gives you total access (subject only to hangarage arrangements and airport opening hours) and gives you the lowest marginal operating cost. These factors deliver maximum incentive to currency on type, and most of aviation safety hangs on currency on type.
Most owners also know their plane intimately. I am not saying I won't kill myself one day (and if I do you all have my permission to dissect it indefinitely ) but if I do it won't be through not knowing which knob does what.
But ownership also makes it easier to conceal dodgy maintenance, especially if you can find a maintenance company who is willing to collude in dodgy practices. Of course this never happens... What is worse however is renting a plane which you naturally expect to be 100% but it is full of bodges, and yes I have flown a few of those. Today, I wouldn't rent if you paid me for it.
There are some exceptions of outfits which have high quality hardware available for rental. More so now than say 10 years ago, but still scarce. And very expensive, per hour.
It is true that the accident stats are overweight in sole-owner prangs, but that is probably because owners fly the most hours - for the reasons above. Few people fly a lot of hours on rental because the hourly cost is so high, you can't take it away for long, etc, etc. Most prangs (fixed wing) are not maintenance related anyway.
A bit of a contradiction there, don't you think?
Replacing bits which are worn is OK.
Replacing bits on a pure time basis is in most cases in fixed wing GA totally pointless.
Aviation regulation around the world has never managed to get its head around this concept
Being an owner is just about the only way that you can fly a plane that's maintained to a high standard, with a zero tolerance to defects. It is not economical for a rental plane to be thus maintained, unless it is an extremely simple type.
Ownership gives you total access (subject only to hangarage arrangements and airport opening hours) and gives you the lowest marginal operating cost. These factors deliver maximum incentive to currency on type, and most of aviation safety hangs on currency on type.
Most owners also know their plane intimately. I am not saying I won't kill myself one day (and if I do you all have my permission to dissect it indefinitely
) but if I do it won't be through not knowing which knob does what.But ownership also makes it easier to conceal dodgy maintenance, especially if you can find a maintenance company who is willing to collude in dodgy practices. Of course this never happens... What is worse however is renting a plane which you naturally expect to be 100% but it is full of bodges, and yes I have flown a few of those. Today, I wouldn't rent if you paid me for it.
There are some exceptions of outfits which have high quality hardware available for rental. More so now than say 10 years ago, but still scarce. And very expensive, per hour.
It is true that the accident stats are overweight in sole-owner prangs, but that is probably because owners fly the most hours - for the reasons above. Few people fly a lot of hours on rental because the hourly cost is so high, you can't take it away for long, etc, etc. Most prangs (fixed wing) are not maintenance related anyway.
wear and maintenance on timed components
Replacing bits which are worn is OK.
Replacing bits on a pure time basis is in most cases in fixed wing GA totally pointless.
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Tell me that when your alternator and vacuum goes awry on a solid IFR day Peter.
A bit of a contradiction there, dont you think?
Replacing bits on a pure time basis is in most cases in fixed wing GA totally pointless.
Being an owner is just about the only way that you can fly a plane that's maintained to a high standard, with a zero tolerance to defects. It is not economical for a rental plane to be thus maintained, unless it is an extremely simple type.
Last edited by M-ONGO; 11th Jan 2012 at 10:29.
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I started flying in 1996, bought my own plane, and hired an instructor to teach me in it. From the outset, the 'dangers' inherent were obvious, and in my view, maintenance-or lack of, could be a prime danger. So, entrusting maintenance organisations to look after my baby, particularly when these organisations were officially 'approved', by the regulating authority, I assumed, that all would be correct. How wrong was I.
I worked my way through ratings, added instructor hours, and attempted to understand the workings of flight, what would happen, or what one would expect to happen, with pilot induced input. Therefore I was giving myself as much chance of lessening any dangers, that I could. This is still the case,and a lot of that is knowing when to sit on the ground.
I now have gotten involved far more in maintenance, and check/double check everything the chosen shop now does. And believe me they still f*** up. That is the one aspect of owner operated flying that still bothers me from a safety perspective, and it should be the least
I worked my way through ratings, added instructor hours, and attempted to understand the workings of flight, what would happen, or what one would expect to happen, with pilot induced input. Therefore I was giving myself as much chance of lessening any dangers, that I could. This is still the case,and a lot of that is knowing when to sit on the ground.
I now have gotten involved far more in maintenance, and check/double check everything the chosen shop now does. And believe me they still f*** up. That is the one aspect of owner operated flying that still bothers me from a safety perspective, and it should be the least
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Firstly I would change the word taking on dangerous flights for challenging flights.
Some of us like to use our skills and knowledge to successfully complete flights which are difficult or challenging that doesn't make them dangerous for all but maybe for some.
I go back to the statement of flying within your and the aircrafts limits!
Amongst the PPL fraternity your limits may well be low.
Single engine pistons may also have low limits on what they can safely fly in.
Go out of those limits with either yourself or the aircraft and the flight becomes dangerous !
The secret of the above is knowing and respecting both your own and the aircrafts limits and there lies the problem!
Pace
Some of us like to use our skills and knowledge to successfully complete flights which are difficult or challenging that doesn't make them dangerous for all but maybe for some.
I go back to the statement of flying within your and the aircrafts limits!
Amongst the PPL fraternity your limits may well be low.
Single engine pistons may also have low limits on what they can safely fly in.
Go out of those limits with either yourself or the aircraft and the flight becomes dangerous !
The secret of the above is knowing and respecting both your own and the aircrafts limits and there lies the problem!
Pace