a debate about a debate
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a debate about a debate
It is time to discuss this matter in the open
The Twin fire on the ground at North Weald involves a PPRUNE poster who is much respected by much (if not all) of the community.
Another much respected PPRUNE poster has asked (see biz jet thread David Green and FSD) not to comment or speculate as it would be too harsh for the relatives.
Yet we do discuss accidents here, extensively, because we aim to learn from them. We speculate without accusing, with a clear purpose, namely to learn from the analysis more than from the accident itself. Yet the accident itself is the immediate trigger which provides the trigger for the discussion.
By now we know who was the pilot, we think we know that the fire was a fire on the ground outside opening hours of the airfield, when he went back to the airplane to collect something.
If we fail to use that trigger, the discussion is less likely to happen or at least to be less intense. It all has to do with human nature.
Of course there are always those who object to this speculation and those who advocate it.
This time the question is should we refrain more from speculation in this case because he is a valued member of our community? That seems illogical and unfair.
If something happened to me in GA, people would be free to speculate on this forum from my point of view, and I would urge my relatives who cannot stomach this, to not visit this forum. It would be something good coming out of something bad in my view.
The Twin fire on the ground at North Weald involves a PPRUNE poster who is much respected by much (if not all) of the community.
Another much respected PPRUNE poster has asked (see biz jet thread David Green and FSD) not to comment or speculate as it would be too harsh for the relatives.
Yet we do discuss accidents here, extensively, because we aim to learn from them. We speculate without accusing, with a clear purpose, namely to learn from the analysis more than from the accident itself. Yet the accident itself is the immediate trigger which provides the trigger for the discussion.
By now we know who was the pilot, we think we know that the fire was a fire on the ground outside opening hours of the airfield, when he went back to the airplane to collect something.
If we fail to use that trigger, the discussion is less likely to happen or at least to be less intense. It all has to do with human nature.
Of course there are always those who object to this speculation and those who advocate it.
This time the question is should we refrain more from speculation in this case because he is a valued member of our community? That seems illogical and unfair.
If something happened to me in GA, people would be free to speculate on this forum from my point of view, and I would urge my relatives who cannot stomach this, to not visit this forum. It would be something good coming out of something bad in my view.
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Or maybe that despite the fact that Dave is a pilot and the fire occurred onboard on aircraft it actually is not really a flying accident?
Dave was collecting something from the aircraft, not flying, taxiing, ground running engines or in fact doing anything aviation related.
The accident could just as easily have happened in his car or garage. In fact I thought about it this morning when my garage stank of thinners because a container had leaked. I ventilated the garage very quickly.
What is the morbid curiosity with forum posters for wanting to know every intimate detail about every incident?
Dave was collecting something from the aircraft, not flying, taxiing, ground running engines or in fact doing anything aviation related.
The accident could just as easily have happened in his car or garage. In fact I thought about it this morning when my garage stank of thinners because a container had leaked. I ventilated the garage very quickly.
What is the morbid curiosity with forum posters for wanting to know every intimate detail about every incident?
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No morbid curiosity Bose-X
Planes don't light by themselves. Or should not.
Anyway it's not the question. The question is why treat this fire in a plane any different from a fire in a plane from some anonymous person?
If you get hurt in a plane can we speculate on it here?
Planes don't light by themselves. Or should not.
Anyway it's not the question. The question is why treat this fire in a plane any different from a fire in a plane from some anonymous person?
If you get hurt in a plane can we speculate on it here?
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If you get hurt in a plane can we speculate on it here?
However just because I don't care does not mean that I am prepared to disrespect others wishes.
As far as this incident is concerned as I understand it, it was a very unfortunate non flying related accident. So apart from a reminder to people to ensure they cap volatile substances there is nothing to speculate or discuss that will benefit our flying skills.
edit: spelling
Last edited by S-Works; 5th Jan 2012 at 18:05.
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Talk about it as much as you like VH
I'll offer this - I've been around my garage today and checked the labelling and cap/fastener security of everything that will produce flammable vapours. That's fuels, solvents, cleaners, thinners and paints in my case and it was a chastening experience to see how much there was for someone into aircraft and elderly vehicles
Rob
I'll offer this - I've been around my garage today and checked the labelling and cap/fastener security of everything that will produce flammable vapours. That's fuels, solvents, cleaners, thinners and paints in my case and it was a chastening experience to see how much there was for someone into aircraft and elderly vehicles
Rob
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I am glad you reply as you do Bose-X
Again this is not about the accident itself. More of us, I believe, should express how we feel about PPRUNE in case something happens to us within GA.
The way aviation discusses mishaps and accidents is second nature to us, but not to the rest of the world.
I have found this openness one of the great values of being part of the flying community, as I found the methodological approach to flying (though extreme checklist routines) most useful in my non flying life.
Rob, I am not talking about the accident. I am talking about the talking about accidents. Respect for the family and friends of the victim.
Again this is not about the accident itself. More of us, I believe, should express how we feel about PPRUNE in case something happens to us within GA.
The way aviation discusses mishaps and accidents is second nature to us, but not to the rest of the world.
I have found this openness one of the great values of being part of the flying community, as I found the methodological approach to flying (though extreme checklist routines) most useful in my non flying life.
Rob, I am not talking about the accident. I am talking about the talking about accidents. Respect for the family and friends of the victim.
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I think that respect to the injured person should be given, especially as none of us yet know the potential outcome. Dave remains listed as critical.
If Dave had cut his finger then no problem, feel free to speculate, however his injuries are life threatening. Now is not the time to debate rumour or inaccurate reports.
I would hate for any matters debated in public here at this early stage to be refered to in other things such as an inquest. It has happened in the past when an inquest has been told the facts and then a statement has been read when the facts are not conclusive to say it was "widely discussed" and in the opinion of xyz this was a contributory factor.
I have no doubt that given the fullness of time a full report will be made of the circumstances. That report will be based on fact rather than speculation.
It should be noted that the AAIB in regards to this matter have decided that they have no interest or need to conduct an investigation. Just as they would if it was in your garage or shed.
If Dave had cut his finger then no problem, feel free to speculate, however his injuries are life threatening. Now is not the time to debate rumour or inaccurate reports.
I would hate for any matters debated in public here at this early stage to be refered to in other things such as an inquest. It has happened in the past when an inquest has been told the facts and then a statement has been read when the facts are not conclusive to say it was "widely discussed" and in the opinion of xyz this was a contributory factor.
I have no doubt that given the fullness of time a full report will be made of the circumstances. That report will be based on fact rather than speculation.
It should be noted that the AAIB in regards to this matter have decided that they have no interest or need to conduct an investigation. Just as they would if it was in your garage or shed.
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The "debate" question itself is fair. There are too many differing circumstances and emotions for any one answer to be the better answer. In my opinion, no matter what, "the dust has to settle" before the chatter and speculation has a place. I wonder if the "dust has settled" on this event yet? I think perhaps not.
Once chatter and speculation approaches being appropriate, what is it's purpose? If people can learn, and prevent a reoccurance, it has merit, as long as it does not perpetuate the torment of the victims, which certainly includes the family and friends. Could torment be perpetuated in this situation? Could be.
Does the event have flying element? Believing:
Perhaps not.
I have no need to speculate, or drum up chatter in this case, other than to express genuine compassion to a member of our group, who's in a tough place in life.
In other cases which come to mind (aircraft landing in the Derwent river), I agree with VanHork. The debate should rage on! What makes the difference for me between this, and that? I'm not completely sure. A reasonable person, now suffering through bad burns, factors heavily on my mind, and gives me pause. A pilot with an apparent history of flying beyond the edge, splashing an assumed serviceable land plane, gives me something to openly speculate and chatter about!
The debates should rage on, though I hope that simple compassion causes them to sidestep certain events, and JetBlu's would be one for me.
Once chatter and speculation approaches being appropriate, what is it's purpose? If people can learn, and prevent a reoccurance, it has merit, as long as it does not perpetuate the torment of the victims, which certainly includes the family and friends. Could torment be perpetuated in this situation? Could be.
Does the event have flying element? Believing:
Dave was collecting something from the aircraft, not flying, taxiing, ground running engines or in fact doing anything aviation related
I have no need to speculate, or drum up chatter in this case, other than to express genuine compassion to a member of our group, who's in a tough place in life.
In other cases which come to mind (aircraft landing in the Derwent river), I agree with VanHork. The debate should rage on! What makes the difference for me between this, and that? I'm not completely sure. A reasonable person, now suffering through bad burns, factors heavily on my mind, and gives me pause. A pilot with an apparent history of flying beyond the edge, splashing an assumed serviceable land plane, gives me something to openly speculate and chatter about!
The debates should rage on, though I hope that simple compassion causes them to sidestep certain events, and JetBlu's would be one for me.
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vanHorck, you voice what I and no doubt others have been thinking for some time.
I have concluded that it is merely human nature in that it is more difficult to speculate, or even discuss events when those involved are known and or respected. As a species we tend to feel less comfortable discussing events when we are closer to them. Consequently I believe that by applying my theory we would find that different forumites mishaps would be treated differently. Anything from certain individuals requesting accidents are not discussed, where those involved are known to them, to taking the p1ss if they are not known.
Just human nature!
BB
I have concluded that it is merely human nature in that it is more difficult to speculate, or even discuss events when those involved are known and or respected. As a species we tend to feel less comfortable discussing events when we are closer to them. Consequently I believe that by applying my theory we would find that different forumites mishaps would be treated differently. Anything from certain individuals requesting accidents are not discussed, where those involved are known to them, to taking the p1ss if they are not known.
Just human nature!
BB
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According to the website, the purpose of the AAIB is:
To improve aviation safety by determining the causes of air accidents and serious incidents and making safety recommendations intended to prevent recurrence
That that the aircraft wasn't being flown doesn't change the fact that it was a serious incident involving an aircraft (and a pilot) at an airfield.
If this doesn't come under their remit, you have to wonder what does?!
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I think it is useful to discuss any accident, so that we can learn from it and hopefully not have to deal with the same situation ourselves.
I'd like to know what was the likely cause of this fire, whether it was due to gas on a hot engine or turbo, smoking around avgas, electrical faults or whatever, not to judge someone, but to learn from it so I don't make the same mistakes.
If someone avoids being in the same situation due to learning on somewhere like Pprune then at least one good thing might come out of what is clearly a horrible and tragic accident. If someone knows the actual cause of the accident, then withholding that information is not actually doing any good and merely fuels speculation.
I'd like to know what was the likely cause of this fire, whether it was due to gas on a hot engine or turbo, smoking around avgas, electrical faults or whatever, not to judge someone, but to learn from it so I don't make the same mistakes.
If someone avoids being in the same situation due to learning on somewhere like Pprune then at least one good thing might come out of what is clearly a horrible and tragic accident. If someone knows the actual cause of the accident, then withholding that information is not actually doing any good and merely fuels speculation.
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I find that quite surprising.
I have known the AAIB report on aircraft that have suffered fire damage whilst no one was in attendance.
I am not goimg to speculate but on the basis of that statement this is not an aviation event.
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englishal, we don't need to be told an accident was due to smoking around avgas to learn not to smoke around avgas! Indeed there are probably very few, if any, accidents that would be prevented by immediately going public with all known details of all accidents.
I agree it is useful to discuss, or even read others comments on accidents to help prevent falling foul of the same, however I think the content of your post is in danger of weakening your argument!
BB
I agree it is useful to discuss, or even read others comments on accidents to help prevent falling foul of the same, however I think the content of your post is in danger of weakening your argument!
BB
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I think people are too sensitive.
Discussions, whether in person or on ananonymous forum, should always be positive if contributors are allowed to express their views/opinions and are able in return to recieve criticism/feedback/education (however you want to describe it).
The problem is that a sensitive social culture breeds defensiveness and therefore emotional reactions are commonplace.
You can call me "Big nose".
I can reply "How do you define big and is that a complement or an insult?"
or "thanks very much!" or "You're not so bad yourself conkface!"
Or I can do like most people do and react emotionally and fuel the animosity..........
Discuss!
Discussions, whether in person or on ananonymous forum, should always be positive if contributors are allowed to express their views/opinions and are able in return to recieve criticism/feedback/education (however you want to describe it).
The problem is that a sensitive social culture breeds defensiveness and therefore emotional reactions are commonplace.
You can call me "Big nose".
I can reply "How do you define big and is that a complement or an insult?"
or "thanks very much!" or "You're not so bad yourself conkface!"
Or I can do like most people do and react emotionally and fuel the animosity..........
Discuss!
In the last two years our small group, (about four hundred owners but less on line,) has lost a couple of stalwarts. As they were both outgoing and big contributors to both our technical and social sites their loss hit particularly hard.
After the first event, B's wife asked another of our number to post that she expected us to discuss the accident and not to hold back from discussion for those reasons we speculate on Pprune.
After G's accident his wife posted to tell us how she felt and it allowed us to express our support, though there has been less discussion.
Personally it won't matter a whole lot to me, whether dead or injured, if you discuss an accident I am involved in. It would matter if something similar happened to someone else who could have known better by discussing it. That would be too PC, and I hate PC.
After the first event, B's wife asked another of our number to post that she expected us to discuss the accident and not to hold back from discussion for those reasons we speculate on Pprune.
After G's accident his wife posted to tell us how she felt and it allowed us to express our support, though there has been less discussion.
Personally it won't matter a whole lot to me, whether dead or injured, if you discuss an accident I am involved in. It would matter if something similar happened to someone else who could have known better by discussing it. That would be too PC, and I hate PC.
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I'd like to know what was the likely cause of this fire, whether it was due to gas on a hot engine or turbo, smoking around avgas, electrical faults or whatever, not to judge someone, but to learn from it so I don't make the same mistakes.
Nor would it be likely to be volatile liquids stored in an aircraft otherwise the AAIB would advise against such practice in their subsequent recomendations. If it was a liquid used in the operation or maintenance of aircraft it would definitely come within their remit and demand investigation.
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I have to admit I go with GoldenEaglePilot on this. Many of us are shocked that one minute David who was owed 7K and discussed his debt openly in the Weaver thread offered to give it to charity which shows the character of the man!!!!
The next minute a new post stated that he had been so badly burnt! 90% !That his survival is in question.
The poor guy has a family and young children and I find it distasteful and pointless at this stage to discuss why?
pprune can hold shocks. My best friend and a second father to me who was a huge support through my own difficult times and was also an elderly ferry pilot crashed a 172 on such a ferry. I spoke with him on the Sunday when he was in Canada opened up pprune at the start of the week to find out about his death in these threads.
It is a matter of respect for the suffering of others that we should allow a small shock time before disecting the reason why.
Pace
The next minute a new post stated that he had been so badly burnt! 90% !That his survival is in question.
The poor guy has a family and young children and I find it distasteful and pointless at this stage to discuss why?
pprune can hold shocks. My best friend and a second father to me who was a huge support through my own difficult times and was also an elderly ferry pilot crashed a 172 on such a ferry. I spoke with him on the Sunday when he was in Canada opened up pprune at the start of the week to find out about his death in these threads.
It is a matter of respect for the suffering of others that we should allow a small shock time before disecting the reason why.
Pace
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There is no doubt everyone feels the hurt and shows the respect due when this happens.... Even more so when you know the person through a forum or better still personally.
When a Dutchman crashed a Malibu in Austria on a flight from the UK a few years ago we intensely discussed the matter here. No one knew if the pilot was a pprune poster. His relatives and friends followed the thread here as well. Harsh words were said, relatives and friends suffered because of that, but in the end (and this is my evaluation) that thread helped some of those involved to come to terms with what happened. I know because I was personally in touch with some.
We are not to decide if some people are more deserving of silence out of respect than others. All human life is precious.
(and please don't come back about this being a ground fire, this thread is not about the accident)
When a Dutchman crashed a Malibu in Austria on a flight from the UK a few years ago we intensely discussed the matter here. No one knew if the pilot was a pprune poster. His relatives and friends followed the thread here as well. Harsh words were said, relatives and friends suffered because of that, but in the end (and this is my evaluation) that thread helped some of those involved to come to terms with what happened. I know because I was personally in touch with some.
We are not to decide if some people are more deserving of silence out of respect than others. All human life is precious.
(and please don't come back about this being a ground fire, this thread is not about the accident)