What makes a Flying School a good school?

[abgd]

Oh, what I would give for a bit of modern technology that, whilst arguably less robust, can be fixed quickly.

I'm not sure that it can always be. At least with a Tomahawk or Cessna you can probably find parts on a scrapheap somewhere, or buy a new aircraft for £10,000-£15,000. But if Grob take 6 months to supply a spare structural part, you're in trouble.

Also, big name older aircraft tend to be at least supported by somebody. There are so many newer less established types that many of the manufacturers will inevitably go bust, and a dinged wing will mean a trip to the scrapheap whereas with a spamcan or type still in production it would just mean ordering a few new parts.

I don't like it, but I can see why the situation is as it is.

[Grob Queen]

But if Grob take 6 months to supply a spare structural part, you're in trouble.

To clarify, GrobWerke took about 5 months...the rest was due to said aircraft going in for her annual and their taking a long time over it.....

I've flown her a few times since and shes as good as new now, taxis like a dream with the new nosewheel

[abgd]

I've just looked at where you're training, and worked out that there must be at least two Grobs that have had dinged nosegear that took an unreasonable amount of months to replace.

As I recall, the story I heard was that a Grob at another UK airfield broke the nose leg and had a prop strike leading to the engine having to be taken apart. It took the best part of a year to get it back into the air.

Once seems unfortunate. Twice seems to make a trend.

[Grob Queen]

Not guilty for the other one, wherever it was!!! ...and luckily the prop on ours was not damaged.

Well, whatever is going on at Grob to take so long, they're still OK to train in, and to get back to the OP, I wouldn't dismiss a school/club just because they operated Grobs...but then I maybe just a tad biased....

[abgd]

No, I wouldn't dismiss a school either for operating Grobs. But I am persuaded that if I owned a school, I wouldn't buy 'em. Especially after realising that yours was a different accident.

[niceday2700classic]

Being treated like a customer who's spending the thick end of £200 an hour??!!

That'd be nice. Of course, things change in the briefing room/aeroplane and at that point the 'customer' becomes a student and shuts up and listens.

But beforehand? Jesus Christ. I'm paying almost £200 an hour for this, and then I move heaven and earth at work to arrive for my lesson at the appointed time, only to find my instructor is still in the air. Then at 15 minutes past the appointed time the instructor walks in. Then has to do some paperwork for another student before we can start our lesson. Then has to run out and fuel the aircraft before we brief. Then the lesson ends up being shorter than we'd planned because it's getting dark.

And then I'm made to feel like the most unreasonable person in the world just because I expect to start on time.

[Say Cheese]

Well, I am in the process of looking at somewhere to learn and I have this Saturday just gone found the place I will learn with. Why them? Well because.....

- The CFI was friendly and approachable and confirmed our appointment by text that morning even though I'd only spoken to him the day before to arrange.

- The CFI/Owner was willing to spend an hour talking about the school and club. The way that they work and what I would need to do to get the license. Others I have spoken to have shoved a brochure in my hand and told me to "call if you've got questions".

- Very open about prices. What was included and what wasn't. Told me the minimum number of hours that would be needed to pass and then told me realistically how long it would take. Stated that I would at some point want to buy my own headset and told me to factor that in too. Also, I went for a trial flight after the hour chat and was given a price for the hour. When we got back I was told that we'd only been up for 50 mins (wind was getting bad) and was only charged for the 50 mins I'd been up, not as I was expecting, to be charged a full hour.

- Was added as a temporary member to the online booking system so I could see from comfort of home how it works for myself.

- Showed me on the trial flight a lot of what the plane could do including a stall and how to recover as well as getting it to hover in a strong wind.

All in all I felt welcomed and that they wanted me on board as a member of the club not just another punter to spend some cash.

[madlandrover]

In the UK there has to be a Club with the RTF attached to it.

Just to make it clear, that's for clubs who also offer flying courses, RTFs don't need a club attached - the last 2 I've worked in (both also FTOs) aren't/weren't clubs. In balance keeps things easier when there are several businesses on the same airfield.

[mad_jock]

Go and have a look at that mate.

You might find there is an automatic membership which gets them on the books.

I had to join the FTO's club when I did my CPL/IR.

Its a legacy thing they say everyone has to be members then don't define what a club is. Which for some places is just a list of names that everyone gets added to and others its a revenue generator.

I don't have a clue if this changes with EASA

[madlandrover]

I had a look while I was writing the Ops manual . It's used by some places as a perfectly legal protection for liability insurance in a building, by others as a revenue builder. We've found it's better for us to operate as a FTO & RTF with public liability insurance in place and no questions about how/when/where/who. It's not a CAA requirement that RTFs have clubs - rather it's a requirement that clubs have a RTF to be able to conduct training for licenses/ratings themselves, eg Sleap, or have an attached RTF that does the flying training, eg HFS/HAC. A few clubs have given up on the expense and have become purely social clubs, with small discounts available at the local non-club RTF for members.

[4_blues]

I imagine things will be further shaken up when it will be incumbent on any organisation be they 'clubs' or 'schools' offering flight training courses to become an ATO. However, I think it is prudent to collect the details of anyone flying in a 'club aircraft' (be they students on a course or trial lesson/gift voucher flights) and a membership procedure is an efficient way of collecting these details. Although yes, some organisations charge extra for the privilege of writing down your contact details!

4B

[MikeTangoEcho]

- Instructors who want to instruct rather than build hours to get a commercial job

Instructing IS a commercial job thank you very much..

[4_blues]

Instructing IS a commercial job thank you very much..

Im sure that the poster meant rather than an Airliner job as many UK FIs instruct only until they get their first RHS job.

However, to be really anal, it's only a 'commercial job' if the FI holds a CPL and is being paid to instruct.

4B

[Aphrican]

Instructing IS a commercial job thank you very much.

As 4_blues points out, my language wasn't accurate enough.

I prefer instructors who have chosen teaching as their vocation to those who are simply building hours for the sole purpose of getting into their first RHS job and never want to see a student again.

The former teach, the latter demonstrate.

[Swerve550]

I'm the same as Berger. I moved schools after some pretty bad experiences all named above, including a very aggressive instructor .

I've moved schools to a 'club' where i feel totally at home. The biggest diffence aside from the club atmosphere, and this is the clincher, is that the instructor made it fun. He loves flying, he wants to see me do well and his enjoyment of flying is infectious.

At an early stage, it should be scary and extremely good fun. Otherwise your circa £180 per hour should be spent elsewhere.

Swerve

[bouncibong]

It seems Im not the only one to have changed schools. My old school constantly messed me around- I never got briefings before hand and never had a clue what I was trying to learn. Groundschool consisted of "buy the books from transair, read them and you will be ok" The old school was always trying to get money out of me upfront.

My new school briefs me properly, the instructors are far friendlier, the rates per hour although advertised the same are actually cheaper cos I just pay for tacho time and not hobbs time, the new school dont charge me extra for landing fees (watch this one as it can really add up)

Whilst their aircraft dont look the best they are reliable and so;

IF YOU AINT HAPPY where you are- MOVE

[Flying_Anorak]

It's interesting reading all the comments on here, never realised it was such a minefield trying to find a suitable club.

I'm probably a bit of an anomaly (others have used different words to describe me previously!) as I'm currently a gliding instructor looking to get an NPPL TMG / SEP while I can still get a credit for my circa 1,000 gliding hours.

It's quite amazing the number of clubs that don't seem to offer NPPL courses or recognise that there are glider pilots who want to take advantage of the 10hrs instruction needed (yes I know that's a minimum) to get the chance to fly things with fans on the front too.

If I later want to upgrade my NPPL SEP (or LAPL I guess) to a JAR (EASA?) PPL, are there any particular pitfalls as regards the club I learned with that I need to be aware of? For example I have heard that hours spent learning with BGA clubs that offer NPPL SLMG / TMG training cant be counted towards the JAR (EASA?) PPL.

It seems so much easier without a fan!

[B4aeros]

For example I have heard that hours spent learning with BGA clubs that offer NPPL SLMG / TMG training cant be counted towards the JAR (EASA?) PPL.

JAA licences require JAA syllabus instruction with CAA/JAA instructors. The Motor Glider Club at Hinton is one of the very few places in the country that can give combined SLMG/CAA instruction; you can find SLMG instructors at gliding clubs who are also CAA instructors but most are BGA motorglider instructors who have done an NPPL SLMG instructor's course.

SLMG training at BGA clubs will count towards an EASA licence. An NPPL SLMG will become an LAPL(A), TMGs only. You can add an SSEA to your NPPL pre EASA conversion, or add SEP privileges to your EASA LAPL(A) post conversion. You will be able to turn an LAPL into a PPL.

It's quite amazing the number of clubs that don't seem to offer NPPL courses or recognise that there are glider pilots who want to take advantage of the 10hrs instruction needed (yes I know that's a minimum) to get the chance to fly things with fans on the front too.

Most BGA clubs don't have a TMG & only the biggest & busiest have enough customers to keep an SLMG instructor current. Lasham, Dunstable & Bicester all offer SLMG instruction in your area, possibly RAFGSA Chilterns at Halton as well.

[billiboing]

I stand to be corrected, but I believe you are wrong sir re your hours training at a BGA club counting towards a EASA PPL. I had a long chat with the CAA with regards to the changes in the rules which come into effect on 8th April 2012.

As I understand it many of the BGA instructors have Motorglider Instructor Ratings (Restricted). This means that they can teach only for GLIDING exercises- ie cross country nav before someone does their first XC, field landing checks etc. These guys, good as they are cannot teach towards a PPL of any sort and your hours WILL NOT count.

The next type of instructor is those than can teach for the NPPL TMG. These guys again are restricted to this, and speaking to CAA flight Crew Licencing the hour done will NOT count towards a EASA PPL

To do an EASA PPL you need to train through either a REGISTERED TRAINING FACILITY or an APPROVED TRAINING FACILITY. This is an approval given by the CAA to carry out PPL training for the EASA PPLs.

You are right in saying that Hinton is one of the few places that has BOTH approvals to do PPL EASA training, NPPL training, SLMG renewals and is a registered training organisation and has FULLY RATED motorglider instructors and examiners that are BOTH BGA and CAA. They also do IMC, tailwheel and IR (SEP) training.

People need to be careful to ensure that if they undertake training that where they fly has the correct rated instructors and approvals to undertake the training for the licence that they want.

WHAT DO YOU WANT TO GET AT THE END OF IT ALL?

EASA PPL (TMG) OR EASA PPL SEP- Must be carried out at a RTO (CAA Registered Training Organisation) with a CAA approval with a CAA rated instructor.

NPPL- Can be by either a RTO as above with a CAA instructor or with a BGA Instructor who has a FULL MOTORGLIDER rating. These hours will NOT count towards a EASA PPL and you would have to redo them.

GLIDING RELATED EXCERCISES- Can be by any of the above OR a BGA instrucotr with a restricted motorglider rating.

[Dan the weegie]

No club is required for an RTF to operate, that was done away with quite some years ago (5+) but club committees continue to cling on to it so that they can exert some amount of influence on the RTF. I know this because it's no longer on the application form to become an RTF, you just need permission from the owner of the airfield.

Career instructors are as common as rocking horse dung. Customers will not pay extra to have a full brief/debrief from an instructor of any kind, they will only pay for flying time or well written groundschool. New career instructors i.e. ones that have only ever been are normally unable to get a job flying in an airline/bizjet and that's the only reason they're still there anyone else is teaching ME/IR/FIC and therefor will not be available to PPL students except for exams.

It's more than a little insulting to say that you don't care about your students if you're on your way to an airline job. I've met plenty of sub standard career guys. All you need is someone who takes a personal interest in you.

Not enough customers will pay for immaculate aircraft, I often hear people whinging about the state of a plane as if they had any concept of how much they cost to run and how tight the margins are. If you want amazing aircraft, you need to pay £250/hr so that the school makes their 5% and the plane stays equipped and clean. Noone, not a single person thinks that price is realistic so we have to keep flying tommies and 152s.

The best flight school, has an owner who is doing it for fun and enjoys it, has instructors who enjoy it, a CFI who understands how to manage customers and staff and aircraft that will do the job well enough and a comfortable lounge/kitchen and provides free tea and coffee. Most importantly a good flight school does *not* go bust.