What makes a Flying School a good school?
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What makes a Flying School a good school?
We have all read the write ups all over PPRuNe and other 'fora' relating to bad flying schools - the ones to stay away from at all costs as a result of taking payments up front and disappearing over night, or a lack of Instructor availablilty or a poorly maintained fleet. But what makes a flying school a good flying school?
How do those of us in the business strive to ensure we are a cut above the rest? Obviously doing the opposite of the above is nice start, but how do we build on this? It is my view that given, as much as I hate to use this phrase, "the current economic climate", we all need to ensure we are offering students the very best to ensure they come back and hopefully bring a friend or two along the way. I strongly believe that a business's reputation should precede it and flying clubs/schools should be no different.
Apart from keeping prices as competitive as possible and in line with the competition, which is a struggle for some given the fact most schools are at the mercy of the airport in which they are based, how do we further promote growth and increase the likelihood we will see out another 12 months?
I think 'value added' is the key. How can I ensure I am giving my customers the very most for their £X an hour. Examples of steps taken would include building on social events, trying to get both PPLs - PPLs and PPLs - Students to 'buddy-up' and share their flying experiences. Advancing technology for example, in flight cameras to be used in the post flight debrief ("See, you flared far too high there Bloggs"), same again but sticking something on a DVD for that first solo etc. Tea & Coffee facilities of course (with perhaps the odd biscuit or two).
I would be interested to hear your thoughts?
How do those of us in the business strive to ensure we are a cut above the rest? Obviously doing the opposite of the above is nice start, but how do we build on this? It is my view that given, as much as I hate to use this phrase, "the current economic climate", we all need to ensure we are offering students the very best to ensure they come back and hopefully bring a friend or two along the way. I strongly believe that a business's reputation should precede it and flying clubs/schools should be no different.
Apart from keeping prices as competitive as possible and in line with the competition, which is a struggle for some given the fact most schools are at the mercy of the airport in which they are based, how do we further promote growth and increase the likelihood we will see out another 12 months?
I think 'value added' is the key. How can I ensure I am giving my customers the very most for their £X an hour. Examples of steps taken would include building on social events, trying to get both PPLs - PPLs and PPLs - Students to 'buddy-up' and share their flying experiences. Advancing technology for example, in flight cameras to be used in the post flight debrief ("See, you flared far too high there Bloggs"), same again but sticking something on a DVD for that first solo etc. Tea & Coffee facilities of course (with perhaps the odd biscuit or two).
I would be interested to hear your thoughts?
- Instructors who want to be instructors
- Club members who treat it as a club
- Enough similar aeroplanes that you can jump between then and always be able to fly and learn in something familiar regardless of unserviceabilies.
- Enough slack in the bookings that there's some flexibility.
- A user friendly airfield.
G
- Club members who treat it as a club
- Enough similar aeroplanes that you can jump between then and always be able to fly and learn in something familiar regardless of unserviceabilies.
- Enough slack in the bookings that there's some flexibility.
- A user friendly airfield.
G
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4 blues,
Great post, great questions, great thinking!
A few of my rambling thoughts.....
I was first a student pilot in the 1970's when I was a 16 year old, with 100 hours flying experience already. Probably a nightmare for many instructors, as I had lots to unlearn. They made it tough, and that was right. I did not need pilot training, as much as I need adult training, so I got a measure of both. The school went out of their way to recognize what I needed, and did a good job. My reward? First person to first solo in the much sought after C 152, in Canada, and it had 33 hours TTSN at the time. Happily, that school has been in steady business for all these years, and remains a leader. It is also the only flying school/club in Canada which owns it's own airport.
What changed there over the years, was the apparent [to me] caliber of instructor. I had occasion to have to test fly one of their 172's, so as to assess and approve a major repair, a few years back. I found that the maturity of the instructor who had to "check me out", and the instructors I met on the whole, seemed to have dipped somewhat. I understand that some new pilots would like to earn their way into more senior pilot positions by instructing, but it's more than just how you get a plane up and back down which is being taught, it's maturity, and decision making. It takes some real experience to teach that.
When I took Helicopter training a few years back, two instructors shared the role of training me. They were both grey haired (well, I added to that a bit), and very experienced. That meant that when they taught me something, they also taught me why it was, and when to apply it. It was way more than "this is what the book says". I learned an amazing amount, and highly respected the experience which enveloped my training.
When I fly with newer pilots, I am alarmed with what they don't seem to have been taught. Worse, they don't have much sense of what they are missing. I understand that the "curriculum" does not require it be taught, but that does not mean that there should not be an awareness in the new pilot. I think that schools could do more to teach a student that there is a lot more out there, and they will earn a PPL, which is only a license to learn.
A "good" flying school would assure that all students have a variation of aircraft to fly. This will assure fewer threads here like: "I've been flying the PA-28, do you think I should try the 172?". YES! go fly the 172, and the Tomahawk, and the Citabria, and the Cardinal RG, and get taken for a hour's flying in the Tiger Moth or Chipmunk. The student will learn that they can do it, but that they must broaden their sense of how a plane flies too. It does not mean that they will finish their training competent on these other types, but they will be aware, and have greater confidence. The student does not want to pay for the extra hours to transition between types? Convince them it is important.
The student is trying to fly "the minimum"? Sit them down, and explain that flying costs money, and if they want to do it in the minimum, that's the kind of pilot they'll be: Minimum Mitty. There are some hard realities to flying, unexpected contact with the ground being one of the worst. It's part of the maturity training to learn to make the intellectual and financial investment to overcome these pitfalls of inexperience.
Student pilots are not prissy clean honourees with epaulettes. They are people at the entry point to understanding how to fly a plane. As such, a part of their training should certainly include getting on the overalls, and changing a tire, or a battery, and looking around inside the cowls. They should pump some gas, and wash the plane a few times.
And, homework: A "good" school does not hide or minimize accidents. The relevant, deidentified information should be presented to students by reading a couple of AAIB type reports, and write a "what I learned from that" report back.
I guess I should not try to run a school, I'd probably put myself out of business. Points to those schools who sustain themselves. This is done by really competent instruction, and imparting the true value of a broad understanding of flight.
Great post, great questions, great thinking!
A few of my rambling thoughts.....
I was first a student pilot in the 1970's when I was a 16 year old, with 100 hours flying experience already. Probably a nightmare for many instructors, as I had lots to unlearn. They made it tough, and that was right. I did not need pilot training, as much as I need adult training, so I got a measure of both. The school went out of their way to recognize what I needed, and did a good job. My reward? First person to first solo in the much sought after C 152, in Canada, and it had 33 hours TTSN at the time. Happily, that school has been in steady business for all these years, and remains a leader. It is also the only flying school/club in Canada which owns it's own airport.
What changed there over the years, was the apparent [to me] caliber of instructor. I had occasion to have to test fly one of their 172's, so as to assess and approve a major repair, a few years back. I found that the maturity of the instructor who had to "check me out", and the instructors I met on the whole, seemed to have dipped somewhat. I understand that some new pilots would like to earn their way into more senior pilot positions by instructing, but it's more than just how you get a plane up and back down which is being taught, it's maturity, and decision making. It takes some real experience to teach that.
When I took Helicopter training a few years back, two instructors shared the role of training me. They were both grey haired (well, I added to that a bit), and very experienced. That meant that when they taught me something, they also taught me why it was, and when to apply it. It was way more than "this is what the book says". I learned an amazing amount, and highly respected the experience which enveloped my training.
When I fly with newer pilots, I am alarmed with what they don't seem to have been taught. Worse, they don't have much sense of what they are missing. I understand that the "curriculum" does not require it be taught, but that does not mean that there should not be an awareness in the new pilot. I think that schools could do more to teach a student that there is a lot more out there, and they will earn a PPL, which is only a license to learn.
A "good" flying school would assure that all students have a variation of aircraft to fly. This will assure fewer threads here like: "I've been flying the PA-28, do you think I should try the 172?". YES! go fly the 172, and the Tomahawk, and the Citabria, and the Cardinal RG, and get taken for a hour's flying in the Tiger Moth or Chipmunk. The student will learn that they can do it, but that they must broaden their sense of how a plane flies too. It does not mean that they will finish their training competent on these other types, but they will be aware, and have greater confidence. The student does not want to pay for the extra hours to transition between types? Convince them it is important.
The student is trying to fly "the minimum"? Sit them down, and explain that flying costs money, and if they want to do it in the minimum, that's the kind of pilot they'll be: Minimum Mitty. There are some hard realities to flying, unexpected contact with the ground being one of the worst. It's part of the maturity training to learn to make the intellectual and financial investment to overcome these pitfalls of inexperience.
Student pilots are not prissy clean honourees with epaulettes. They are people at the entry point to understanding how to fly a plane. As such, a part of their training should certainly include getting on the overalls, and changing a tire, or a battery, and looking around inside the cowls. They should pump some gas, and wash the plane a few times.
And, homework: A "good" school does not hide or minimize accidents. The relevant, deidentified information should be presented to students by reading a couple of AAIB type reports, and write a "what I learned from that" report back.
I guess I should not try to run a school, I'd probably put myself out of business. Points to those schools who sustain themselves. This is done by really competent instruction, and imparting the true value of a broad understanding of flight.
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I think Genghis is pretty much spot on, especially with his very first point- 'career' instructors who love instructing and aren't just waiting for the elusive airline job. Having a variety of aircraft within the fleet is useful, so there can be a higher chance of 'something' being available that you can fly. Organised club events are good too, a summer BBQ, fly-outs to interesting places etc, perhaps a social secretary could be appointed to keep the focus on the 'club' aspect of the club. There's probably lots more, I'll have a think and post back later. Rich
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A club with an honest and clear price structure...... not one that quotes £xx for an hours flying and then ads charges for home base landings, fuel surcharges, instuctor briefings & VAT.
I find that the people who are upfromt about costs are usualy the best people to fly with.
I find that the people who are upfromt about costs are usualy the best people to fly with.
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As Rich points out, the world doesn't end when you've got that PPL.
Of course, as a freshly minted PPL you spend your first year taking up all your family members and friends (hopefully with a bit of cost sharing going on) but at some point in time, the interest in your flying diminishes and you find yourself without a challenge or reason to fly.
That's where the club comes in. A place to meet other pilots and share a flight with them, do charity flights, get further training (aerobatics, tailwheel, complex, multi, or maybe even onto the IMC/IR/CPL/ATPL path), join in a fly-out or fly-in, or even a multi-day tour of Europe. Heck, even a social evening where no flying is done can be a good night out.
Of course, as a freshly minted PPL you spend your first year taking up all your family members and friends (hopefully with a bit of cost sharing going on) but at some point in time, the interest in your flying diminishes and you find yourself without a challenge or reason to fly.
That's where the club comes in. A place to meet other pilots and share a flight with them, do charity flights, get further training (aerobatics, tailwheel, complex, multi, or maybe even onto the IMC/IR/CPL/ATPL path), join in a fly-out or fly-in, or even a multi-day tour of Europe. Heck, even a social evening where no flying is done can be a good night out.
A school that realises that you are the client and are giving them a lot of your hard earned cash. Some schools treat you almost like an inconvenience.
This is usually by the people behind the desk rather than the instructors, but I have also seen instructors shouting at students and generally treating them like s@#t.
I think this atttitude is seen more in the commercial FTO's where there seems to be a never ending supply of wannbees coming through the door. However these people might be paying tens of thousands into the schools coffers.
Whilst looking around for schools to do my CPL/IR I have been staggered at the lack of basic customer service shown. Sometimes it felt like I had to almost beg them to show me their sim/aircraft etc. A couple of schools just made me walk out without even inquiring.
If I ran my business like that I would be very poor indeed.
This is usually by the people behind the desk rather than the instructors, but I have also seen instructors shouting at students and generally treating them like s@#t.
I think this atttitude is seen more in the commercial FTO's where there seems to be a never ending supply of wannbees coming through the door. However these people might be paying tens of thousands into the schools coffers.
Whilst looking around for schools to do my CPL/IR I have been staggered at the lack of basic customer service shown. Sometimes it felt like I had to almost beg them to show me their sim/aircraft etc. A couple of schools just made me walk out without even inquiring.
If I ran my business like that I would be very poor indeed.
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a small amount of idiosyncrasy
Looking back twenty years to when I started to learn to fly, a small amount of idiosyncrasy in a flight school might not be a bad thing.
As a total ‘walk in off the street’ novice I went in to the first place with the big friendly Learn To Fly Here sign outside. I walked in. Everyone there stopped what they were doing and stared at me, then resumed their conversations, drinks at the bar etc. After a couple of minutes I walked out, taking £6K’s worth of flight training spending with me. I don’t think that school is still in business. Can’t think why…
Other places were marginally better, but tended to give one the envelope with their bumf and an invitation to ‘Call them if you have any questions’.
I finally ended up doing my PPL and some further training with Air South. Some folks with long memories may recall the idiosyncratic outfit and the cast of surreal characters in their adverts in the flying magazines. I’d decided that they were either Brilliant or Barking, turned out they were a bit of both.
The point of this rambling is that in a flying club or school you have a large sales and marketing workforce. All enthusiastic (assuming a good club), all unpaid. Even a pre-solo student can answer a lot of punter type questions. They might not be totally on-message, but will be enthusiastic. As long as they pre-fix their comments with their experience level, their contribution will be worth more than any glossy brochure.
It doesn’t need the CFI to meet and greet every punter that comes through the door. Possibly having handed over the usual bumf, the person could be pointed at one of the students with the suggestion that they ‘Have a word with Jill, she’s coming up to solo and can tell you what it’s like to get started’. This will get the buddy system going from the start.
As a total ‘walk in off the street’ novice I went in to the first place with the big friendly Learn To Fly Here sign outside. I walked in. Everyone there stopped what they were doing and stared at me, then resumed their conversations, drinks at the bar etc. After a couple of minutes I walked out, taking £6K’s worth of flight training spending with me. I don’t think that school is still in business. Can’t think why…
Other places were marginally better, but tended to give one the envelope with their bumf and an invitation to ‘Call them if you have any questions’.
I finally ended up doing my PPL and some further training with Air South. Some folks with long memories may recall the idiosyncratic outfit and the cast of surreal characters in their adverts in the flying magazines. I’d decided that they were either Brilliant or Barking, turned out they were a bit of both.
The point of this rambling is that in a flying club or school you have a large sales and marketing workforce. All enthusiastic (assuming a good club), all unpaid. Even a pre-solo student can answer a lot of punter type questions. They might not be totally on-message, but will be enthusiastic. As long as they pre-fix their comments with their experience level, their contribution will be worth more than any glossy brochure.
It doesn’t need the CFI to meet and greet every punter that comes through the door. Possibly having handed over the usual bumf, the person could be pointed at one of the students with the suggestion that they ‘Have a word with Jill, she’s coming up to solo and can tell you what it’s like to get started’. This will get the buddy system going from the start.
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Good point WKW. A month or so ago I was just propping up the bar after an aerobatics flight, chatting with some other pilots, when somebody wandered in off the street. He was thinking about getting a PPL, and was checking out the different schools at the airport.
We invited him to join us, offered him a drink and spent a good hour talking about the workings of the club, the PPL, what to do after, the club atmosphere, post-PPL activities and so forth. I also took him airside and showed him a few of the clubs aircraft, let him sit in the P1 chair, explained a few things to him about the panel and so forth.
When we got back in and after having chatted some more, he went to the desk and bought a trial lesson package right there and then.
Such a treatment is probably more important than the usual CFI spiel about what a PPL is going to cost.
We invited him to join us, offered him a drink and spent a good hour talking about the workings of the club, the PPL, what to do after, the club atmosphere, post-PPL activities and so forth. I also took him airside and showed him a few of the clubs aircraft, let him sit in the P1 chair, explained a few things to him about the panel and so forth.
When we got back in and after having chatted some more, he went to the desk and bought a trial lesson package right there and then.
Such a treatment is probably more important than the usual CFI spiel about what a PPL is going to cost.
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The first contact personally I think is given not enough attention.
It has to cut that fine line of being the first line of sales and also the ongoing ops role.
The chat with the CFI isn't required or does any good unless they are a TF god themsleves which usually they are not.
I am in two minds about if the person should know the training info inside out. I have worked with both and to be honest the personality traits of the none pilot meant she was far better than any of the pilot ones.
It really needs some one that can relate to the punters, can be the confident of some of them, be able to deal with the occassional bout of tears, be able to bully instructors into getting there finger out and have a cracking sense of humour which livens the whole place up.
flyingschoolsec who I worked with while the pink headset was on going was by far the best I have ever worked with. The paperwork was always done and you left the club with laughter about some personal abuse which had just been thrown your way and you came back in to laughter as well.
Folk in through the door were always made welcome and apart from the occasional appearance of a couple of the committee members that were a pain there was always an air of fun about the place.
It has to cut that fine line of being the first line of sales and also the ongoing ops role.
The chat with the CFI isn't required or does any good unless they are a TF god themsleves which usually they are not.
I am in two minds about if the person should know the training info inside out. I have worked with both and to be honest the personality traits of the none pilot meant she was far better than any of the pilot ones.
It really needs some one that can relate to the punters, can be the confident of some of them, be able to deal with the occassional bout of tears, be able to bully instructors into getting there finger out and have a cracking sense of humour which livens the whole place up.
flyingschoolsec who I worked with while the pink headset was on going was by far the best I have ever worked with. The paperwork was always done and you left the club with laughter about some personal abuse which had just been thrown your way and you came back in to laughter as well.
Folk in through the door were always made welcome and apart from the occasional appearance of a couple of the committee members that were a pain there was always an air of fun about the place.
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Some fantastic ideas and points made here, I've taken a few things away from this thread myself already!
A few things which make me want to give people money:
1. Clean and tidy office/ briefing rooms/ aircraft. Whilst most of use are aware that a bit of duct tape here and there with a bit of oil on the cowling is no big deal, the average first time punter does not.
2. Professional but fun people. Nobody wants to be taught by a useless halfwit, likewise a personality descendant of Atilla the Hun bearing down on you for not getting the flare quite right doesn't make for a good learning experience. Flying is inherently dangerous, but also needs to be fun.
3. Honesty. If someone isn't honest or tries to hide things, I will not be giving them my cash.
Every other point I would make has already been covered really, as I said above there are some blinders! Brilliant thread!
4015
A few things which make me want to give people money:
1. Clean and tidy office/ briefing rooms/ aircraft. Whilst most of use are aware that a bit of duct tape here and there with a bit of oil on the cowling is no big deal, the average first time punter does not.
2. Professional but fun people. Nobody wants to be taught by a useless halfwit, likewise a personality descendant of Atilla the Hun bearing down on you for not getting the flare quite right doesn't make for a good learning experience. Flying is inherently dangerous, but also needs to be fun.
3. Honesty. If someone isn't honest or tries to hide things, I will not be giving them my cash.
Every other point I would make has already been covered really, as I said above there are some blinders! Brilliant thread!
4015
1. Clean and tidy office/ briefing rooms/ aircraft. Whilst most of use are aware that a bit of duct tape here and there with a bit of oil on the cowling is no big deal, the average first time punter does not.
G
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And for gawds sake have decent clean toilets that arn't freezing cold.
Changing the towel more than once a year would be a bonus as well.
O and the skinning the student for checklist hiviz etc every time they forget them is a no no and really pisses them off. Pound in the RNLI box and lend them a set.
Changing the towel more than once a year would be a bonus as well.
O and the skinning the student for checklist hiviz etc every time they forget them is a no no and really pisses them off. Pound in the RNLI box and lend them a set.
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I walked in. Everyone there stopped what they were doing and stared at me, then resumed their conversations, drinks at the bar etc. After a couple of minutes I walked out, taking £6K’s worth of flight training spending with me.
You don't have to waste an hour with every person who walks in the door, but you do have to great them with a smile, and present the enthusiasm for aviation that attracted you there in the first place!
A good system. When I did my PPL in 1964 at Thruxton, part way through the course my landings got worse, and the assistant instructor couldn't fix them. Instead of continuing to bash on, he chopped the lesson. I was in the air soon with an experienced instructor who sorted me out in about 20 minutes. I then continued with the assistant instructor. (30hour PPL on Jackeroos)
I let my licence lapse, and had to do most of it again in 1986-7. One of the instructors would keep on when we both knew I was not getting anywhere, but he couldn't spot why.
I let my licence lapse, and had to do most of it again in 1986-7. One of the instructors would keep on when we both knew I was not getting anywhere, but he couldn't spot why.
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As a very new PPL, I have a few observations (some of which have already been made) :
- A school that teaches people how to be pilots rather than how to pass exams / flight checks
- Instructors who want to instruct rather than build hours to get a commercial job
- Airspace that is uncrowded enough that the primary focus is on flying rather than ATC and crash avoidance
- Relatively modern equipment (this is based on my personal risk perception rather than logic : I know that a well maintained older airframe and engine is better than a poorly maintained newer airframe and engine but for any given level of maintenance, a newer airframe is less risky than an older airframe : since maintenance is an unknown for most of us, age is the only observable variable)
- Flight schools that have reconciled the teacher / student and service provider / customer conundrum
- Instructors who insist that students leave their socio-economic backgrounds behind when they enter the aerodrome. Aeroplanes truly don't care who we are
- Instructors who are able to recognise that the learning process is not at all linear and encourage students to fly with someone else for a while when we reach plateaus / regress
- Instructors who are punctual and insist on the same from their students
- Instructors who treat every flight as though it were a transatlantic flight with 300 pax on board as a measure of their professionalism
- A school that teaches people how to be pilots rather than how to pass exams / flight checks
- Instructors who want to instruct rather than build hours to get a commercial job
- Airspace that is uncrowded enough that the primary focus is on flying rather than ATC and crash avoidance
- Relatively modern equipment (this is based on my personal risk perception rather than logic : I know that a well maintained older airframe and engine is better than a poorly maintained newer airframe and engine but for any given level of maintenance, a newer airframe is less risky than an older airframe : since maintenance is an unknown for most of us, age is the only observable variable)
- Flight schools that have reconciled the teacher / student and service provider / customer conundrum
- Instructors who insist that students leave their socio-economic backgrounds behind when they enter the aerodrome. Aeroplanes truly don't care who we are
- Instructors who are able to recognise that the learning process is not at all linear and encourage students to fly with someone else for a while when we reach plateaus / regress
- Instructors who are punctual and insist on the same from their students
- Instructors who treat every flight as though it were a transatlantic flight with 300 pax on board as a measure of their professionalism
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The Savvy Flight Instructor
Might I recommend the book “The Savvy Flight Instructor – Secrets of the Successful CFI” by Greg Brown to the assembled company? I’ve just re-read it and a lot of the advice is relevant to the above discussion. It’s not a ‘how to cure student’s bounced landings’ type of book, but covers a lot of the business side of things from the perspective of the small / Mom & Pop type flight school.
It is an American book, so some things will be different. The CFI in this case is a Certificated Flight Instructor. As many people here will know, they don’t have AFI’s over there, so once you’ve got your instructor’s rating you are on your own. This book has lots of useful suggestions about motivating students (and instructors) as well as keeping the punters coming through the door. There’s even a piece in one chapter where a new student (albeit a successful business man type) walks away because he feels the instructor hasn’t charged enough for the tuition, so he can’t be any good!
It’s available via the Web, as well as an e-book. The link below has a description as well as a suitably glowing testimonial.
The Savvy Flight Instructor on the ASA Website
Safe Flying,
Richard W.
It is an American book, so some things will be different. The CFI in this case is a Certificated Flight Instructor. As many people here will know, they don’t have AFI’s over there, so once you’ve got your instructor’s rating you are on your own. This book has lots of useful suggestions about motivating students (and instructors) as well as keeping the punters coming through the door. There’s even a piece in one chapter where a new student (albeit a successful business man type) walks away because he feels the instructor hasn’t charged enough for the tuition, so he can’t be any good!
It’s available via the Web, as well as an e-book. The link below has a description as well as a suitably glowing testimonial.
The Savvy Flight Instructor on the ASA Website
Safe Flying,
Richard W.