Icao Language Proficiency Check
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Can you point out a reference for this?
I can understand why it would make sense, but I've never seen any regulation with required it.
I can understand why it would make sense, but I've never seen any regulation with required it.
Indeed it would make French airfields in accessable to many foreign pilots even if they were fluent French speakers, simply because there is no facility to add French languange proficiency to their licence.
Imagine a Norweign pilot asking the Norweign CAA for a French Languange Proficiency test so that they could add it to their licence. It's very unlikely that they would have developed such a test, or have such an examiner.
Imagine a Norweign pilot asking the Norweign CAA for a French Languange Proficiency test so that they could add it to their licence. It's very unlikely that they would have developed such a test, or have such an examiner.
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The same applies to German which isn't an ICAO language either (mainly because ICAO was founded in 1944 without Germany) so all aerodromes are indicated as de/en in the AIP.
If you want to use the radio in Norwegian or French, then you must have Norwegian or French in your license, same with any other language. It does not matter if it's an ICAO language or not. Going to a French only field without a French endorsement is poor flight planing.
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The German law says "need to be proficient in the language or English". I don't know the equivalent French bill but I bet it does not contain the "or English" part.
There is no reference whatsoever to it in the French AIP (where pilots visiting the country would be expected to look).
If nobody can find the law, and it's not mentioned in the AIP, it's in all likelyhood no such law exists, and you are simply confused with what might be a good idea and what is law.
Indeed it would make French airfields in accessable to many foreign pilots even if they were fluent French speakers, simply because there is no facility to add French languange proficiency to their licence.
Imagine a Norweign pilot asking the Norweign CAA for a French Languange Proficiency test so that they could add it to their licence. It's very unlikely that they would have developed such a test, or have such an examiner.
Imagine a Norweign pilot asking the Norweign CAA for a French Languange Proficiency test so that they could add it to their licence. It's very unlikely that they would have developed such a test, or have such an examiner.
Norwegian is not an ICAO language and while theoretically possible, the AIP would probably not declare an aerodrome as Norwegian speaking only. The same applies to German which isn't an ICAO language either (mainly because ICAO was founded in 1944 without Germany) so all aerodromes are indicated as de/en in the AIP. In France, most smaller aerodromes are indicated as fr/en during official opening hours and fr only outside business hours. Some fields are only indicated as fr.
I never mentioned the Norwegian language, but rather a Norweigan licence holder wanting to use a French only airfield.
As for
The same applies to German [...]so all aerodromes are indicated as de/en in the AIP
If you want to use the radio in Norwegian or French, then you must have Norwegian or French in your license, same with any other language.
Going to a French only field without a French endorsement is poor flight planing.
I don't believe that there is any legal requirement for it, as nobody seems to be able to find such a law. If there isn't such a low then all the pilot needs is a working knowledge of the language. And in any case, for many of these fields it is acceptable to arrive non-radio, so what does language matter?
And how is one supposed to plane or obtain such an endorsement?
How for example am I supposed to get a French languange cert for my Irish licence? It's simply not possible.
If nobody can produce the law that says this is a requirement, and it doesn't say anything in the AIP, then I think it's just misinformed hearsay.
This ICAO language stuff makes me want to cry.
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The German law says "need to be proficient in the language or English". I don't know the equivalent French bill but I bet it does not contain the "or English" part. The Canadians mention that for French in Québec, one needs to pass the test, found it here.
Reading the link you posted it says
Because pilots from other countries fly in Canada, particularly international airliners, Canada is required to ensure that every pilot who flies in Canada meets the standard, even if they never fly internationally. Because of this, to fly inside Canada a pilot will need a language proficiency endorsement on their pilot's licence for an ICAO Level 4 (Operational) in English to fly everywhere in Canada, except Quebec and the national Capital Area where a language proficiency endorsement on their pilot's licence for an ICAO Level 4 (Operational) in French or English will be acceptable.
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dublin Westwind knows whart she is talking about in germany. I suspect she is correct.
The French stuff is definately correct and it doesn't matter what your interpretation is they will nick you and fine the backside off you and keep you in jail until you pay it if you do go into a french only airflield and get caught.
The French stuff is definately correct and it doesn't matter what your interpretation is they will nick you and fine the backside off you and keep you in jail until you pay it if you do go into a french only airflield and get caught.
Last edited by mad_jock; 3rd Jan 2012 at 18:59.
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I've asked you for a reference for this, and obvioulsy you can't give one, but you say it again as if it's fact. This has come up before on the forums, but nobody has ever been able to find a law or regulation saying it is so.
There is no reference whatsoever to it in the French AIP (where pilots visiting the country would be expected to look).
There is no reference whatsoever to it in the French AIP (where pilots visiting the country would be expected to look).
En France, l’évaluation des compétences linguistiques ne portera que sur la langue française et sur la langue anglaise, qui sont les 2 langues utilisées par le contrôle aérien français. Les pilotes désirant obtenir une compétence linguistique dans une autre langue (espagnol, allemand, russe, etc.…) devront s’adresser à l’autorité d’un Etat organisant les compétences linguistiques en cette autre langue.
The AIP (only have Jeppesen here at the moment) clearly marks certain aerodromes as French only. So I think the situation is pretty clear. Unless you have ICAO level 4 or higher for French, you cannot legally land at an aerodrome in France that is not marked for English radio communication.
If they put a Scotsman in jail for not being English proficient, what would they do with an Irishman that is supposed to do radio communication in French?
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dublin Westwind has something to do with the German CAA in an inspection role. I suspect she is correct.
How are you btw? Still have contact with the "Pinkster"? So, achimha, you have literally confirmed what we have been saying. It's logical that a French authority can only evaluate French and/or English even as the Germans can only evaluate German and/or French (there are German examiners for German level 6 listed on the LBA homepage). Any other language probably can't be added to the licence but proven with some kind of document.
After some lousy experiences flying in France (I don't speak French at all, so radio work was English), I vowed to never fly there again!
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Sorry westie edited.
Doing fine haven't heard from pinky in years. She can be still heard on some teuchter local radio station.
And like you westie I avoid the bloody place if I can do below area Fl's
Doing fine haven't heard from pinky in years. She can be still heard on some teuchter local radio station.
And like you westie I avoid the bloody place if I can do below area Fl's
After some lousy experiences flying in France (I don't speak French at all, so radio work was English), I vowed to never fly there again!
Ever imagined how lousy the experience would be for a French-only speaker venturing into merry old England? Not to mention MJ country, of course.
Of course there are exceptions everywhere, but generally no European country has less welcome for non-local-speakers than the UK. (Or you should consider Russia to be European.) So don't be hard on the French, they are learning fast. Even if I must admit they had a long way to go, they have by now made better progress than the Brits. Again, this is speaking on a general note, and there will be exceptions everywhere.
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dublin Westwind knows whart she is talking about in germany. I suspect she is correct.
She said that if you want to use French, then you need French in your licence.
If you want to use the radio in Norwegian or French, then you must have Norwegian or French in your license, same with any other language. It does not matter if it's an ICAO language or not.
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En France, l’évaluation des compétences linguistiques ne portera que sur la langue française et sur la langue anglaise, qui sont les 2 langues utilisées par le contrôle aérien français. Les pilotes désirant obtenir une compétence linguistique dans une autre langue (espagnol, allemand, russe, etc.…) devront s’adresser à l’autorité d’un Etat organisant les compétences linguistiques en cette autre langue.
Is says that the DGAC can test one of their pilots for English or French. If a pilot wants a languange proficency in another language then the DGAC is directing them to another CAA.
The actual law text is here.
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@JO... my "lousy" experiences were only in part because of the language barrier. I did say "good day" in French, just to be nice, but that's about all I know (ok, about 4-5 other words perhaps). But it gets frustrating to give FIS an initial call on the proper frequency and not get a reply! Nothing! and it wasn't just once, it was a number of times. And then at one field, we almost got hit by a jet trainer because of the poor accent of the guy in the tower and the jet pilot "showing off" (overtaking us while we were on short final and scaring the living daylights out of us ... we didn't know his intentions). Long story which I won't go into now.....
If anyone would like a copy of the original ICAO doc, send me your email address in a pm.
If anyone would like a copy of the original ICAO doc, send me your email address in a pm.
to give FIS an initial call on the proper frequency and not get a reply! Nothing!
OTOH pilots showing off are a danger everywhere, and we should all be on permanent alert for them - and for many other dangers - wherever we fly.
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Perhaps rather than asking me to translate nine pages of French law, you could direct me to which part of it you are stating is the law requiring a French languange endorsement to use a French only airfield?
Quand les privilèges de la licence sont exercés dans les espaces aériens où l’usage de la langue française est requis, le titulaire d’une licence doit avoir apporté la preuve d’un niveau 4 ou plus en cette langue. Lorsque
cette preuve ne résulte pas du dossier du navigant, le titulaire de la licence doit avoir satisfait à une épreuve complémentaire.
cette preuve ne résulte pas du dossier du navigant, le titulaire de la licence doit avoir satisfait à une épreuve complémentaire.
The above in combination with the AIP marking certain aerodromes as French only at certain times should be quite clear.
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Strictly speaking, I think that if you fly into an FR-only airfield without a French language proficiency endorsement on your licence you could run into trouble if the authorities wanted to make life difficult for you. Whether that would ever actually happen is another matter entirely. It's unlikely, I'd have thought, unless you were involved in an accident. However....
From the text quoted by achimha above:
Epreuves de compétence linguistique
Quand les privilèges de la licence sont exercés dans les espaces aériens où l'usage de la langue française est requis, le titulaire d'une licence doit avoir apporté la preuve d'un niveau 4 ou plus dans cette langue.
If licence privileges are exercised in airspace requiring use of the French language, the licence holder must be able to demonstrate Level 4 or higher in this language
The text continues:
Lorsque cette preuve ne résulte pas du dossier du navigant, le titulaire de la licence doit avoir satisfait à une épreuve complémentaire.
All holders of a French PPL are automatically attributed Level 6 French language proficiency and the endorsement is mentioned on the licence. If you don't hold a French-issued licence I infer from the above that you are required to take a separate French language test ..le titulaire de la licence doit avoir satisfait à une épreuve complémentaire.
Accordingly, the "Compétences linguistiques" section of my DGAC licence mentions
Anglais VFR
Français VFR
Posted at the same time as achimha
From the text quoted by achimha above:
Epreuves de compétence linguistique
Quand les privilèges de la licence sont exercés dans les espaces aériens où l'usage de la langue française est requis, le titulaire d'une licence doit avoir apporté la preuve d'un niveau 4 ou plus dans cette langue.
If licence privileges are exercised in airspace requiring use of the French language, the licence holder must be able to demonstrate Level 4 or higher in this language
The text continues:
Lorsque cette preuve ne résulte pas du dossier du navigant, le titulaire de la licence doit avoir satisfait à une épreuve complémentaire.
All holders of a French PPL are automatically attributed Level 6 French language proficiency and the endorsement is mentioned on the licence. If you don't hold a French-issued licence I infer from the above that you are required to take a separate French language test ..le titulaire de la licence doit avoir satisfait à une épreuve complémentaire.
Accordingly, the "Compétences linguistiques" section of my DGAC licence mentions
Anglais VFR
Français VFR
Posted at the same time as achimha