Club Styles
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Club Styles
Not sure this deserves a thread to itself but....
I enjoy flying with a different instructor now and again, each with his/her own different experiences to share. Something new may crop up, or an adjustment/improvement to my current technique is revised. However reading many posts here it seems clear that not only do instructors differ in their techniques, but different types of club teach the PPL syllabus in very different ways.
For example there are posts that suggest big FTOs teach us to fly small aeroplanes as if they were airliners applying a commercial slant to everything; RAF clubs teach to fly them like fast jets with oval circuits and a PFL 'pattern'; and smaller schools teach a more recreational style of flying.
Obvious as it seems, these are innate to the school of thought, and most can probably be expected: FTOs perhaps focus on passenger comfort and fuel economy (procedures and cost?), RAF clubs on pilot comfort and concise circuitry (flying suit and ovals?), and recreational flying being focussed on simple fun and adventure. There no 'right' or 'wrong' here nor is this to instigate class wars!
But it came to me that all of these clubs essentially teach toward the same thing (PPL skills test is a defined standard after all), and their students once qualified may progress up the pilotage ladder or even enjoy a PPL forever.
My curiosity is whether these club styles have a significant impact on our effectiveness as private pilots, or even as future professional pilots? If changing clubs does it matter which style we use? I like to think I have a flying style of my own, do you? Do you know what you do differently from others?
I think this is interesting, any thoughts?
I enjoy flying with a different instructor now and again, each with his/her own different experiences to share. Something new may crop up, or an adjustment/improvement to my current technique is revised. However reading many posts here it seems clear that not only do instructors differ in their techniques, but different types of club teach the PPL syllabus in very different ways.
For example there are posts that suggest big FTOs teach us to fly small aeroplanes as if they were airliners applying a commercial slant to everything; RAF clubs teach to fly them like fast jets with oval circuits and a PFL 'pattern'; and smaller schools teach a more recreational style of flying.
Obvious as it seems, these are innate to the school of thought, and most can probably be expected: FTOs perhaps focus on passenger comfort and fuel economy (procedures and cost?), RAF clubs on pilot comfort and concise circuitry (flying suit and ovals?), and recreational flying being focussed on simple fun and adventure. There no 'right' or 'wrong' here nor is this to instigate class wars!
But it came to me that all of these clubs essentially teach toward the same thing (PPL skills test is a defined standard after all), and their students once qualified may progress up the pilotage ladder or even enjoy a PPL forever.
My curiosity is whether these club styles have a significant impact on our effectiveness as private pilots, or even as future professional pilots? If changing clubs does it matter which style we use? I like to think I have a flying style of my own, do you? Do you know what you do differently from others?
I think this is interesting, any thoughts?
But it came to me that all of these clubs essentially teach toward the same thing (PPL skills test is a defined standard after all)
Most clubs have an examiner in-house, or a couple of nearby examiners they usually use. So, in many ways, I find that clubs are teaching to the known foibles of the examiner.
Frankly, this is little different at CPL either. At-least where I did mine, there was a great deal of "habit spotting" because they knew who the examiners were, what their favourite routes were and how they tend to construct a skills test.
Not healthy, to be frank, but it's what happens.
G
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Agreeing with the above - you know you're going to get one of possibly 3 examiners, so you teach to their standards, then brief the student beforehand on anything specific you know they will look for.
I moved from teaching at a club to an FTO. At the club we were left to do what we wanted - to a degree - which was great. We all taught to the same standard, but often taught different methods to achieve the same goal. Now at a larger FTO everything has to be standardised, and I'm in trouble if I teach the wrong method (E.g point and power rather than attitude for speed and power for glide on approach).
I've also met instructors and examiners who see anything other than their method as completely wrong. Often the hot topics are use of carb heat, cct size and shape, approach method, and getting back on track on navigation.
The standards document is there, so all exams should be to the same standard, it's just different examiners will pick up on very small things.
There is a big difference because the student (or customer) is usually very different. An aspirational 18 year old hoping to go commercial should be taught differently than a 40 something who is likely to buy his own tail dragger as soon as he's got his licence. Their flying after the licence will be very different.
I moved from teaching at a club to an FTO. At the club we were left to do what we wanted - to a degree - which was great. We all taught to the same standard, but often taught different methods to achieve the same goal. Now at a larger FTO everything has to be standardised, and I'm in trouble if I teach the wrong method (E.g point and power rather than attitude for speed and power for glide on approach).
I've also met instructors and examiners who see anything other than their method as completely wrong. Often the hot topics are use of carb heat, cct size and shape, approach method, and getting back on track on navigation.
The standards document is there, so all exams should be to the same standard, it's just different examiners will pick up on very small things.
There is a big difference because the student (or customer) is usually very different. An aspirational 18 year old hoping to go commercial should be taught differently than a 40 something who is likely to buy his own tail dragger as soon as he's got his licence. Their flying after the licence will be very different.
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Most PPL schools in the UK have no idea of standardisation, FTOs should be standardising their instructors and SOPs etc.. though.
When RFs have to move to ATOs under EASA there will have to be a lot more work by PPL schools to standardise lesson content, documentation, checklists, SOPs and so on.
When RFs have to move to ATOs under EASA there will have to be a lot more work by PPL schools to standardise lesson content, documentation, checklists, SOPs and so on.
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All interesting responses above. But Big G, RTN11, blagger, do you have any idiosyncrasies in flying or things that you'd call your flying style?
Edit: for example on local trips I'm a little bull in a big china shop: if it can be done at max rate, max rate it is! (although the aeroplane always remains within its limits). On A to B routes it's more fluency and comfort during departure and arrival I.e a quicker speed in the climb rather than at Vx (lesser ROC), then a straight-in/down wind/x wind as opposed to overhead joins etc)
Edit: for example on local trips I'm a little bull in a big china shop: if it can be done at max rate, max rate it is! (although the aeroplane always remains within its limits). On A to B routes it's more fluency and comfort during departure and arrival I.e a quicker speed in the climb rather than at Vx (lesser ROC), then a straight-in/down wind/x wind as opposed to overhead joins etc)
Last edited by GeeWhizz; 30th Nov 2011 at 19:37.
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I learned at a military airfield (although I'm a civvy) and found it very useful flying from a fully controlled and busy with big jets airfield. I'm more bothered about flying into a small GA airfield with the sometimes less than great circuit discipline than I would be flying into somewhere like Stanstead.
My instructors were all ex CFS instructors, now involved in various civilian flying jobs from airline pilot to warbird pilot, I obviously haven't anything to compare them to but I guess that I had top class instruction, they managed to get me through in the minimum hours without me feeling in the slightest rushed or under pressure. They also have a wealth of flying experience of all types and can pass on those little tips that are so important.
So I had quite a disciplined ride through the PPL, this has most definitely wormed it's way into my flying style. I always try to fly accurately and it's a matter of personal pride to stick within 50 ft of cruising level (I've flown with guys who wander up and down by 2-300 ft and think nothing of it) and within a couple of degrees of chosen heading.
I guess it doesn't make any difference at all if you don't do any of the above as long as you're safe and get to your destination in a more or less straight line, it's just the way I was taught I suppose.
My instructors were all ex CFS instructors, now involved in various civilian flying jobs from airline pilot to warbird pilot, I obviously haven't anything to compare them to but I guess that I had top class instruction, they managed to get me through in the minimum hours without me feeling in the slightest rushed or under pressure. They also have a wealth of flying experience of all types and can pass on those little tips that are so important.
So I had quite a disciplined ride through the PPL, this has most definitely wormed it's way into my flying style. I always try to fly accurately and it's a matter of personal pride to stick within 50 ft of cruising level (I've flown with guys who wander up and down by 2-300 ft and think nothing of it) and within a couple of degrees of chosen heading.
I guess it doesn't make any difference at all if you don't do any of the above as long as you're safe and get to your destination in a more or less straight line, it's just the way I was taught I suppose.
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RAF clubs teach to fly them like fast jets with oval circuits and a PFL 'pattern';
Like Thing, I too am a civvy learning at a busy RAF airfield with fast jets, medium twins and fellow Grobs - even the BBMF pop over occasionally (although I haven't yet flown in teh circuit with them). To be honest, I wouldn't have it any other way.
Our QFIs are all either vastly experienced RAF Pilots or civvy pilots who have spent their entire career teaching RAF student pilots. Our RT has to be crisp and our oval circuits tight, we mostly fly in gro-bags and boots for practicality and comfort. PFL circuit patterns, Emergency Breaks, MRTs. Although i am being taught Nav using a Plog, I know that when I have my licence i'll scribble all over the chart military style - it makes so much more sense! I am also taught to fly accurately to within 50ft of my desired altitude and accurately on my heading. All the club paperwork is tip top and all flying orders have to be read...
My first air experience flight was at Coningsby in a Chippy, so I started this disciplined way and love it; and daresay when I get the freedom of my PPL will continue to fly as disciplined as I have been taught. I have now flown with four instructors, three are serving officers and my main QFI a civilian instructor who has instructed RAF students all his career. They all have their different teaching styles nad yes, they pick up different things. Our CFI is a CFS examiner, the club is small, everyone is relaxed, has fun and looks out for each other. Personally I would hate going to a large, more commercial and maybe less personal FTO. But I guess it comes down to what we are used to, and that there is no right or wrong.
Although I have nothing to compare it with and am not even in possession of that coveted licence (yet) I am sure that with military instructors i'm getting a first class training which will ultimately impact on my future abilities as a pilot
(light the blue touch paper, retire immediately and wait for the flak...
.....)
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GeeWhizz
The main things I teach but have had conflict with other instructors about are:
SCA for VFR nav off track corrections
Specific checks for each aircraft not generic BUMFFPICHH stuff in aircraft with fixed u/c
Point and power for approach control
Fly the POH approach speeds not made up urban myth rubbish, same goes for flap settings, leaning and other handling issues
Although as an examiner if the candidate safely demonstrates the aim/requirement of the test item, then we have to be open minded and flexible about the method.
The main things I teach but have had conflict with other instructors about are:
SCA for VFR nav off track corrections
Specific checks for each aircraft not generic BUMFFPICHH stuff in aircraft with fixed u/c
Point and power for approach control
Fly the POH approach speeds not made up urban myth rubbish, same goes for flap settings, leaning and other handling issues
Although as an examiner if the candidate safely demonstrates the aim/requirement of the test item, then we have to be open minded and flexible about the method.
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There's no flak coming from my direction! Curiosity killed the cat and all that I suppose.
I know the Lincolnshire triangle rather well as it goes, and as a result have flown with both military and civilian instructors. I was simply musing over the differences in flying style that the different types of club instil, and what your own flying style is. You can have a flying style as a student too you know, please share
I know the Lincolnshire triangle rather well as it goes, and as a result have flown with both military and civilian instructors. I was simply musing over the differences in flying style that the different types of club instil, and what your own flying style is. You can have a flying style as a student too you know, please share
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Ah I forgot the other advantage of flying from a mil base, PAR and ILS on tap and free. I took up one of the talkdown guys the other day and flew a real IMC PAR to minimums which he found most illuminating.
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Sorry Geewhizz, its only that I have had flak from other ppruners when I mentioned oval circuits and my love of the military way of flying!
My style, mmmm I tend to do what my instructor tells me! But seriously, I do now automatically get in close to the runway when I fly a circuit (which I believe is a military trait). I will be learning the technical PFL "circuit" pattern. Oh yes, I know another different thing I do, I am learning "Initials" as a way of joining the cct rather than always joining in the overhead. I use military acronyms like POB, pax, some times use "Land" rather than "Full stop" when making a full landing. We have to do right hand ccts when using runway 19 to avoid the gliders on Northern. I know I do tend to grip the stick too firmly - in fact my first instructor (and a good friend of mine) when flying the Chippy said that I ahd an "Iron Grip" on teh stick and that I needed to relax more! Now, it depends on whether I am doing something i am comfortable with or not..for instance, now when I taxi I can chat away to my instructor about non-aviation stuff just as I would if driving...
...and always carry my ID card around my neck when flying. We have to wear them all teh time at Cranwell, but also, I make sure I ahev it on me when flying, after I flew to Benson on the BBMF Dakota and on landing realised my ID was at Cgy!
Am I correct in thinking FTOs and civvy clubs do not teach the Emergency Break or MRTs?
My style, mmmm I tend to do what my instructor tells me! But seriously, I do now automatically get in close to the runway when I fly a circuit (which I believe is a military trait). I will be learning the technical PFL "circuit" pattern. Oh yes, I know another different thing I do, I am learning "Initials" as a way of joining the cct rather than always joining in the overhead. I use military acronyms like POB, pax, some times use "Land" rather than "Full stop" when making a full landing. We have to do right hand ccts when using runway 19 to avoid the gliders on Northern. I know I do tend to grip the stick too firmly - in fact my first instructor (and a good friend of mine) when flying the Chippy said that I ahd an "Iron Grip" on teh stick and that I needed to relax more! Now, it depends on whether I am doing something i am comfortable with or not..for instance, now when I taxi I can chat away to my instructor about non-aviation stuff just as I would if driving...
...and always carry my ID card around my neck when flying. We have to wear them all teh time at Cranwell, but also, I make sure I ahev it on me when flying, after I flew to Benson on the BBMF Dakota and on landing realised my ID was at Cgy!
Am I correct in thinking FTOs and civvy clubs do not teach the Emergency Break or MRTs?
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OK first of all there's nowt wrong with learning the military way. I prefer the 'initial' join, and firmly believe that it should be taught everywhere (although an overhead join is similar, just at a higher alt and descending deadside), and its possibly safer. Now I'll wait for the incoming....!
I dont know about FTOs, but civvy clubs do teach 'steep turns', bearing in mind a C150/152 wont get much more than 60 deg AoB whilst level. C172/PA28 can easily make 60 deg level turn, any further and it's comparable to the 150s. With a controlled semi spiral dive it's possible to hit the 90 deg mark in both, ane a brave man might try. G115s can do it and do it reasonably well; I've seen the operational chaps do their stuff very well indeed.
Not sure what you mean by an 'emergency break'? An unanticipated steep turn to avoid traffic would be taken from the steep turn lesson.
I dont know about FTOs, but civvy clubs do teach 'steep turns', bearing in mind a C150/152 wont get much more than 60 deg AoB whilst level. C172/PA28 can easily make 60 deg level turn, any further and it's comparable to the 150s. With a controlled semi spiral dive it's possible to hit the 90 deg mark in both, ane a brave man might try. G115s can do it and do it reasonably well; I've seen the operational chaps do their stuff very well indeed.
Not sure what you mean by an 'emergency break'? An unanticipated steep turn to avoid traffic would be taken from the steep turn lesson.
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I've thought of another two possible differences. My flying training "Bible" is the Tutor training manual rather than Jeremy Pratt or Peter Thom - in fact my instructor positively discourages me to use the Flying Training Jeremy Pratt book! The other is any "Ground School" and pre flight briefing is very informal and free on the goodwill of the instructor, as our instructors all have day jobs.
It would make sense that MRTs and Emergency Breaks come under the steep turn sessions. I have indeed banked a 115 to 60 deg and continue to practice steep turns, still have trouble getting the attitude and back pressure).
"Emergency break" is yes, an unanticipated steep turn to avoid an aircraft on a collision course, flown with rather less accuracy than a textbook steep turn, its more roll, power, pull and get out of the way....and great fun!!!
Oh, and by the way, this thread is fun - so much so that its taken up the evening which I was indeed going to study PFLs and steep turns!!!
It would make sense that MRTs and Emergency Breaks come under the steep turn sessions. I have indeed banked a 115 to 60 deg and continue to practice steep turns, still have trouble getting the attitude and back pressure).
"Emergency break" is yes, an unanticipated steep turn to avoid an aircraft on a collision course, flown with rather less accuracy than a textbook steep turn, its more roll, power, pull and get out of the way....and great fun!!!
Oh, and by the way, this thread is fun - so much so that its taken up the evening which I was indeed going to study PFLs and steep turns!!!
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Odd that, I haven't a clue what an initial join is. Don't teach them here, possibly because this airfield isn't a training one and all of our instructors are civs. (now)
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"Emergency break" is yes, an unanticipated steep turn to avoid an aircraft on a collision course, flown with rather less accuracy than a textbook steep turn, its more roll, power, pull and get out of the way....and great fun!!!
Odd that, I haven't a clue what an initial join is. Don't teach them here, possibly because this airfield isn't a training one and all of our instructors are civs. (now)
Edit:
Oh, and by the way, this thread is fun - so much so that its taken up the evening which I was indeed going to study PFLs and steep turns!!!
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Initials
Tutor training manual, Initials:
"The standard join allows joining traffic to fit into the pattern from a standard position known as the initial point. The IP is situated 2 miles back from the runway just on the deadside of the runway extended centre line. From teh IP, aircraft fly into the cct on the dead side at the intended cct height along a track parallel to the landing runway. Teh aircraft should be far enough on teh deadside to allow the occupants to see the whole of the cct area, including the runway"
So I agree, Initials are safer than an overhead join! Thats another thing, cct height is 800ft rather than the civvy 1000ft.
"The standard join allows joining traffic to fit into the pattern from a standard position known as the initial point. The IP is situated 2 miles back from the runway just on the deadside of the runway extended centre line. From teh IP, aircraft fly into the cct on the dead side at the intended cct height along a track parallel to the landing runway. Teh aircraft should be far enough on teh deadside to allow the occupants to see the whole of the cct area, including the runway"
So I agree, Initials are safer than an overhead join! Thats another thing, cct height is 800ft rather than the civvy 1000ft.
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So I agree, Initials are safer than an overhead join!!
Sweeping statement!!!!
That's probably a Tutor training manual for Cranwell too, as the IP changes from station to station with regard to the aircraft type
They are safer if the aircraft joining is quick and the pilot is on top of her game. An Initial join is very quick in itself. For the slower aircraft and (I'm going say it without offence I hope) older pilot, an overhead join in easier and allows more time to spot other circuit users.
Horses for courses?
Thats another thing, cct height is 800ft rather than the civvy 1000ft.
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Nope, as far as I'm aware Waddo doesn't have an IP. We only have big beasties here, their version of a run and break is to join extended centerline about 5 light years out and then spend 4 days on a straight in approach.
Usually while I'm waiting at the hold...
Also our deadside is always to the north, so not quite sure how having an IP would work there.
Usually while I'm waiting at the hold...
Also our deadside is always to the north, so not quite sure how having an IP would work there.
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True, but doesn't an Initial join also allow the pilot to see all of the cct? Haven't really flown overhead joins; more straight in or Initials.
If you think doing it in a Grobs good, you ought to try steep turns in our Firefly..truly BRILLIANT! I wouldn't want to fly high wing aircraft now. Give me a low wing any day.
Me too, i'm intrigued!
lMore jealousy that you're doing it in a Grob, than our Cessna spammies!
I wouldn't want to fly high wing aircraft now. Give me a low wing any day.
I'd still like to hear of others' flying styles though