PPL in a Twin
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VJ
The Diamond Twinstar which I tested is a far better aircraft than its underpowered brother it replaced with the new AG300 diesels.
See Below
If your looking for a low running cost twin aircraft ???
The Diamond Twinstar which I tested is a far better aircraft than its underpowered brother it replaced with the new AG300 diesels.
See Below
VJThe 336hp make for impressive acceleration, which unsurprisingly is noticeably increased in comparison with the basic DA42. With the engines delivering 100 %Take Off power, the nose is raised to 12° and it climbs at 90 KCAS burning 9.4 US gal per hour per engine with the variometer oscillating between 1,100 and 1,300 fpm. That is truly impressive. Five minutes after Take Off we are retarding to max continious power of 92% and still get a climb rate of approximately 1,100fpm. The fuel flow meter is indicating 8.5 USgal/h now.
Levelling off at 12,000 ft and the power indication still at 92% we are accelerating to 145 KCAS which leads to a true airspeed of 183 kts. The service ceiling is 18,000 ft and it can maintain 14,000 ft with one engine out. We are engaging the autopilot and enjoying the luxury of the GFC 700 with its yaw damping system. Bringing the power back to a more normal 75 % power, the engines are burning 6.8 US gal per engine and delivering 175 KTAS, which is magnificient for just 51 l of Jet A1 per hour
Levelling off at 12,000 ft and the power indication still at 92% we are accelerating to 145 KCAS which leads to a true airspeed of 183 kts. The service ceiling is 18,000 ft and it can maintain 14,000 ft with one engine out. We are engaging the autopilot and enjoying the luxury of the GFC 700 with its yaw damping system. Bringing the power back to a more normal 75 % power, the engines are burning 6.8 US gal per engine and delivering 175 KTAS, which is magnificient for just 51 l of Jet A1 per hour
Dealing with a engine failure when you know one is coming, like what will happen in training is a whole different animal than dealing with the sudden unexpected lurch to one side. I do not think most twin training does a very good job of preparing twin owners for real world emergencies.
Also my personal observation is most privately operated twins are flown by pilot who do not seem willing to do regular recurrent training and more importantly do not have the personal discipline to follow the important SOP's that this equipment needs to actually benefit from the second engine.
For example I teach (and do myself !) a run through the engine fail vital actions, including lightly touching the relevant controls (to build muscle memory) before every takeoff and have a predetermined no/go vs go point in the takeoff.
As for the question of doing your PPL on a twin.......well my thought is just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. This being a perfect example. The best way to learn the foundation handling skills is in a light low powered trainer, with simple systems allowing you to concentrate on looking out the windscreen, and which flies on the wing not on the engine(s).
Also my personal observation is most privately operated twins are flown by pilot who do not seem willing to do regular recurrent training and more importantly do not have the personal discipline to follow the important SOP's that this equipment needs to actually benefit from the second engine.
For example I teach (and do myself !) a run through the engine fail vital actions, including lightly touching the relevant controls (to build muscle memory) before every takeoff and have a predetermined no/go vs go point in the takeoff.
As for the question of doing your PPL on a twin.......well my thought is just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. This being a perfect example. The best way to learn the foundation handling skills is in a light low powered trainer, with simple systems allowing you to concentrate on looking out the windscreen, and which flies on the wing not on the engine(s).
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Setting aside stuff like insurance issues, I think the answer will depend on what you ultimately want to do.
The PPL training business simply assumes the punter is probably going to drop out ASAP, and the few that stay will just do burger runs.
So it makes sense to train in spamcans.
The more keen and better funded people who want to do e.g. serious flying around Europe and want to buy their own plane are discouraged, because the instructors know almost nothing about the subject and because they want to keep him soing self fly hire for as long as possible.
Let's say your objective is to get an IR and do European touring. (Touring beyond Europe is a hassle, relatively, due to corruption, fuel issues, overflight permits, etc). Wouldn't it make sense to get yourself trained in a plane which at least resembles what you will ultimately be flying?
I gather that various air forces have stopped SE spamcan training because it is just a waste of time.
Flying a more complex type requires a better intellectual grasp, but flying something with a G1000 also requires a better intellectual grasp...
The PPL training business simply assumes the punter is probably going to drop out ASAP, and the few that stay will just do burger runs.
So it makes sense to train in spamcans.
The more keen and better funded people who want to do e.g. serious flying around Europe and want to buy their own plane are discouraged, because the instructors know almost nothing about the subject and because they want to keep him soing self fly hire for as long as possible.
Let's say your objective is to get an IR and do European touring. (Touring beyond Europe is a hassle, relatively, due to corruption, fuel issues, overflight permits, etc). Wouldn't it make sense to get yourself trained in a plane which at least resembles what you will ultimately be flying?
I gather that various air forces have stopped SE spamcan training because it is just a waste of time.
Flying a more complex type requires a better intellectual grasp, but flying something with a G1000 also requires a better intellectual grasp...
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Interesting post I0540, that was the main reason (other than safety), why I asked the question.
All hypothetical of course, and it can be argued slightly irrational (although I feel there is enough statistical evidence to suggest otherwise), I would definitely feel more re-assured piloting something a bit more air worthy than a C-152 post PPL (not that I'm suggesting a C-152 isn't air worthy, simply that there are bigger, more comfortable aircraft for cruising in).
All hypothetical of course, and it can be argued slightly irrational (although I feel there is enough statistical evidence to suggest otherwise), I would definitely feel more re-assured piloting something a bit more air worthy than a C-152 post PPL (not that I'm suggesting a C-152 isn't air worthy, simply that there are bigger, more comfortable aircraft for cruising in).
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Unfortunately, real travel and as a business (or pleasure) tool it is hard work in Europe. Wasn't it someone in another thread that asked which London UK GA airport that's open after dark and pretty much the only one that's even an alternative unless you have a jet and can pay £500 handling is Biggin Hill? You'll have to declare an emergency around London (one of the biggest cities in Europe, the financial center) if you arrive at 9.01pm. It's mind boggling.
I pretty much got back into flying so that I can use it for travel and pleasure. I still nurse a naive thought of one day winning the lottery and being able to fly my Piaggio Avanti to all my work engagements. I would love to never have to fly commercial again. But even if I did win big, regulations and hassles would pretty much prevent it in Europe. In the US it's a no brainer.
So for now, I use the old dinosaur twin I fly as a pleasure tool mostly, with the occasional work stuff thrown in when the moons align. Only time she's a alternative is on shorter routes and to slightly off-the-beaten-path places. That's when they save time and money. For longer trips between big cities it's just financial suicide and time consuming. Not to say it's not worth doing, it just doesn't make any rational sense.
I pretty much got back into flying so that I can use it for travel and pleasure. I still nurse a naive thought of one day winning the lottery and being able to fly my Piaggio Avanti to all my work engagements. I would love to never have to fly commercial again. But even if I did win big, regulations and hassles would pretty much prevent it in Europe. In the US it's a no brainer.
So for now, I use the old dinosaur twin I fly as a pleasure tool mostly, with the occasional work stuff thrown in when the moons align. Only time she's a alternative is on shorter routes and to slightly off-the-beaten-path places. That's when they save time and money. For longer trips between big cities it's just financial suicide and time consuming. Not to say it's not worth doing, it just doesn't make any rational sense.
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Southend EGMC is H24.
But that's about it. Cardiff EGFF is the only other one.
There are various ways to skin the cat if you want to progress to more advanced stuff ASAP, but it will take an imaginative instructor and more importantly a lot more cash.
A lot of people have done the FAA PPL+IR by flying around the USA with an instructor. This is possible here too (JAA PPL, or IR) but would cost similarly more, because the instructor is your "guest"
You will end up being a very good practically capable pilot - something you definitely will not be when you get your PPL.
But that's about it. Cardiff EGFF is the only other one.
There are various ways to skin the cat if you want to progress to more advanced stuff ASAP, but it will take an imaginative instructor and more importantly a lot more cash.
A lot of people have done the FAA PPL+IR by flying around the USA with an instructor. This is possible here too (JAA PPL, or IR) but would cost similarly more, because the instructor is your "guest"
You will end up being a very good practically capable pilot - something you definitely will not be when you get your PPL.
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The Tecnam P2006T handles just like any other twin.
There was one 'flight test' by a now retired magazine editor who said he preferred the 'heritage twins'. Althought the article was written in the form of an MEP rating renewal, the writer had not in actual fact ever held an MEP rating although had done some MEP training in a Duchess.
There have been many more accurate appraisals of the P2006T in UK and American magazines.
The Rotax hasn't reinvented the wheel but it has made possible an IFR certified twin engine four seater that burns 38LPH at its normal (real world) cruise of 135 KIAS.
The Airways Flying Club example is (IIRC) £240/hr (inc VAT) solo and £280.
Somehow I think an abinitio PPL student going from scratch on a twin is going to take a tad more than 45 hours to complete the task...
There was one 'flight test' by a now retired magazine editor who said he preferred the 'heritage twins'. Althought the article was written in the form of an MEP rating renewal, the writer had not in actual fact ever held an MEP rating although had done some MEP training in a Duchess.
There have been many more accurate appraisals of the P2006T in UK and American magazines.
The Rotax hasn't reinvented the wheel but it has made possible an IFR certified twin engine four seater that burns 38LPH at its normal (real world) cruise of 135 KIAS.
The Airways Flying Club example is (IIRC) £240/hr (inc VAT) solo and £280.
Somehow I think an abinitio PPL student going from scratch on a twin is going to take a tad more than 45 hours to complete the task...
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Just in case anyone is interested, I found this (sort of) related thread, whilst trailing around the internet:
A twin vs. BRS-equipped single [Archive] - StudentPilot.com Message Board
It basically talks about the merrits of twins vs ballistic parachutes and then questions whether there are any twins with ballistic parachutes!
A twin vs. BRS-equipped single [Archive] - StudentPilot.com Message Board
It basically talks about the merrits of twins vs ballistic parachutes and then questions whether there are any twins with ballistic parachutes!
Quote:
with obvious fuel benefits of rotax engines.
Have they discovered new laws of physics?
with obvious fuel benefits of rotax engines.
Have they discovered new laws of physics?
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What's even greater about the Tecnam P2006T is that it's certified and even prefers Mogas. With or without ethanol - it doesn't matter. It was designed to handle it, contrary to all other dinosaur Lycs and Contis. So just strap a small bowser to your pickup or in the trunk and fill it up at the regular garage and flick two fingers to the a***oles who decided that 100LL should be 2 squids a litre..
Another great thing: 100LL is scarce in Europe, but there's always Mogas available everywhere as long as you can get to a garage. Carry one of those soft collapsible 50gal tanks in the baggage compartment, land anywhere, hitch a ride to a gas station and fill it up. Total autonomy.
If I could just afford one, I'd buy one tomorrow.
Another great thing: 100LL is scarce in Europe, but there's always Mogas available everywhere as long as you can get to a garage. Carry one of those soft collapsible 50gal tanks in the baggage compartment, land anywhere, hitch a ride to a gas station and fill it up. Total autonomy.
If I could just afford one, I'd buy one tomorrow.
Setting aside stuff like insurance issues, I think the answer will depend on what you ultimately want to do.
The PPL training business simply assumes the punter is probably going to drop out ASAP, and the few that stay will just do burger runs.
So it makes sense to train in spamcans.
The more keen and better funded people who want to do e.g. serious flying around Europe and want to buy their own plane are discouraged, because the instructors know almost nothing about the subject and because they want to keep him soing self fly hire for as long as possible.
Let's say your objective is to get an IR and do European touring. (Touring beyond Europe is a hassle, relatively, due to corruption, fuel issues, overflight permits, etc). Wouldn't it make sense to get yourself trained in a plane which at least resembles what you will ultimately be flying?
I gather that various air forces have stopped SE spamcan training because it is just a waste of time.
Flying a more complex type requires a better intellectual grasp, but flying something with a G1000 also requires a better intellectual grasp...
The PPL training business simply assumes the punter is probably going to drop out ASAP, and the few that stay will just do burger runs.
So it makes sense to train in spamcans.
The more keen and better funded people who want to do e.g. serious flying around Europe and want to buy their own plane are discouraged, because the instructors know almost nothing about the subject and because they want to keep him soing self fly hire for as long as possible.
Let's say your objective is to get an IR and do European touring. (Touring beyond Europe is a hassle, relatively, due to corruption, fuel issues, overflight permits, etc). Wouldn't it make sense to get yourself trained in a plane which at least resembles what you will ultimately be flying?
I gather that various air forces have stopped SE spamcan training because it is just a waste of time.
Flying a more complex type requires a better intellectual grasp, but flying something with a G1000 also requires a better intellectual grasp...
A well taught PPL on a basic trainer will have all the fundamental flying skills that will serve him/her well regardless of the type subsequently flown.
The true problem is post PPL training. That is to be taught how to add to those basic skills so the pilot becomes proficient in the real world A to B flying that makes an aircraft useful. Unfortunately most flying school instructors are of very little use to a new PPL who wants to learn how to effectively and safely use his new G1000 speedster in the real world.
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So just strap a small bowser to your pickup or in the trunk and fill it up at the regular garage and flick two fingers to the a***oles who decided that 100LL should be 2 squids a litre..
Another great thing: 100LL is scarce in Europe, but there's always Mogas available everywhere as long as you can get to a garage. Carry one of those soft collapsible 50gal tanks in the baggage compartment, land anywhere, hitch a ride to a gas station and fill it up. Total autonomy.
Another great thing: 100LL is scarce in Europe, but there's always Mogas available everywhere as long as you can get to a garage. Carry one of those soft collapsible 50gal tanks in the baggage compartment, land anywhere, hitch a ride to a gas station and fill it up. Total autonomy.
It works if you fly from a very private site, and land back at either the same site, or another private site with a similar facility.
If you want to fly away somewhere, you will need a flying car, so you can drive to the garage to fill it up.
And it will work with very small planes only, because the amount of fuel burnt in going e.g. to southern Europe is way too much for manual handling.
How will you handle the collapsible 50 gallon tank when it has been filled up? It will weigh about 150kg.
My microlight examiner recently told me how he once flew a two-stroke powered open microlight from Belgium to Spain by following motorways, and landing next to a services area every two hours or so to refuel. He soon learned to land as inconspicuously as possible, however, not in full sight from the motorway.
The trip took just three days.
As for the 50 gallons, there might well be a typo somewhere.
The trip took just three days.
As for the 50 gallons, there might well be a typo somewhere.
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It takes less than 5 mins to dig up an online trip report where somebody flew a hang-glider with a lawn mower strapped to the back of it, from the UK to Kathmandu, or whatever.
Whether this is practical, or whether the number of pilots that actually do it could or could not be counted on a couple of fingers, is another matter.
Wouldn't we all love to be burning car petrol? The other day I filled up with 221.4 litres (159kg) of avgas. How many jerrycans would this be? With my back, I can barely lift one full size jerrycan out of my car boot and carry it any distance.
There are many different communities within GA, with different requirements and with different levels at which "user satisfaction" can be achieved.
50USG is 136kg. If you filled a rubber bladder with that lot, in the back of your car, and assuming the exhaust is still off the ground, about the only thing you will be able to do is find an industrial waste disposal company to come along and dispose of the contents
Whether this is practical, or whether the number of pilots that actually do it could or could not be counted on a couple of fingers, is another matter.
Wouldn't we all love to be burning car petrol? The other day I filled up with 221.4 litres (159kg) of avgas. How many jerrycans would this be? With my back, I can barely lift one full size jerrycan out of my car boot and carry it any distance.
There are many different communities within GA, with different requirements and with different levels at which "user satisfaction" can be achieved.
50USG is 136kg. If you filled a rubber bladder with that lot, in the back of your car, and assuming the exhaust is still off the ground, about the only thing you will be able to do is find an industrial waste disposal company to come along and dispose of the contents
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Yeah, but you are in the USA. It is a heaven for GA.
There, you can take off in the morning and just fly around, land after dark (pilot controlled lightning, airport not closed at night), etc. Avgas everywhere, and no Customs required for some 99.x% of US based pilots in their entire lifetime. And many other factors, which combine to deliver not just enjoyment but also serious utility value.
Europe is entirely "doable", and I have done a lot of touring around Europe myself, but one has to put a lot more effort into getting one's ducks in a row before going on a long trip. Once you sort out a good process for doing that, it's not hard, and the flying itself is of course similar everywhere.
And a long range aircraft makes the job a lot easier because every airport which you overfly is one airport less to worry about
There, you can take off in the morning and just fly around, land after dark (pilot controlled lightning, airport not closed at night), etc. Avgas everywhere, and no Customs required for some 99.x% of US based pilots in their entire lifetime. And many other factors, which combine to deliver not just enjoyment but also serious utility value.
Europe is entirely "doable", and I have done a lot of touring around Europe myself, but one has to put a lot more effort into getting one's ducks in a row before going on a long trip. Once you sort out a good process for doing that, it's not hard, and the flying itself is of course similar everywhere.
And a long range aircraft makes the job a lot easier because every airport which you overfly is one airport less to worry about
