PPL in a Twin

[vjmehra]

A slightly odd question perhaps, but is it theoretically possible to do a PPL in a twin?

I appreciate you wouldn't be able to get a type rating as such after 45 hours, but in theory if time isn't a massive concern and pretending cost isn't either, after 70 hours, could you theoretically walk away with a PPL and MEP type rating, having never or only briefly flown SEP's?

I've searched a few sites, but not found anything that conclusively says this wouldn't be possible.

[LH-OAB]

I don't know the answer but vaguely remember something about 70 hours being prerequisite to undertaking a MEP rating.

[vjmehra]

My understanding is that the 70 hours figure is the number you need to obtain an MEP rating, in theory however I have not found anything to say you couldn't begin sooner than 70 hours, you merely would not be able to achieve the rating until that point (I think).

[Pilot DAR]

I know a fellow who did his PPL in Canada on a Piper Aztec. Needless to say it took longer than other PPL's.

[Chilli Monster]

Why would you want to?

70 hours @ £300 / hour = £21000

70 hours @ £150 / hour + 7 hours @ £300 / hour = £12600

[A and C]

Cost aside I can't think how you could do some parts of the training safely in a twin.

I feel that some of the stall and spiral dive recovery training would happen to fast for the average student at this part of his/her training.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Again, aside from cost and legalities - even in the height of the cold war where budgets were seldom an issue, I can't recall any of the militaries around the world doing basic training in multi-engine aeroplanes. It was always in a single - sometimes a jet, but still a single. (I have a friend, ex-US Navy who never flew a piston engined aeroplane until Test Pilot School, and I don't think ever logged PiC in one.)

I'm sure it's legally possible: the pilot would end up with an MEP but not an SEP rating, and it would take longer and much more money; I'm sure you could find an instructor who'd do it for all of those lovely juicy multi-engine hours - although I hope they'd have the grace to try and talk you out of it first.

G

[Whopity]

There is nothing in the rules to prevent you from doing a PPL in a twin however; there are a number of issues that might make it unachievable in practice. The cost has already been mentioned and the requirement for 70 hours PIC before you can be issued with a MEP class rating. There is nothing to prevent you from obtaining that 70 hours PIC in a twin as a solo student, except of course insurance; will anyone want to insure a solo student for 70 hours solo in such an aircraft? It has been done in the past and may well be easier in other countries. I have not heard of anyone doing it since the JAA became a reality 11 years ago.

[hingey]

From LASORS:

"An applicant for a JAR-FCL PPL(A) shall have completed
at least 45 hours flight time as a pilot of aeroplanes or
TMGs (Touring Motor Gliders) as appropriate.

An applicant for a class rating for a single-pilot MEP
(Land) aeroplane rating must produce evidence of having
completed a minimum of 70 hours as pilot-in-command
of aeroplanes."

Don't forget, there are 7 theory exams for the PPL which muct be completed within 18 months of passing the first exam and the skills test completed within 24 months of completing the final exam. There is a seperate theory exam for the MEP class rating which must be completed within 6 months before the MEP skills test.

So you would have to do all 8 exams within the time frame of the PPL exams, and within that time you would have to log 70 hours PIC. Whilst these 70 hours could in theory be done under supervision or with an instructor to sign you off solo, I have never heard of this being done. I suspect you would not get insured to fly solo in a twin with less than 50 hours already under your belt.

h

[Jumbo Driver]

Yes, you can obtain a JAR-PPL with just an MEP rating and a good ex-military friend of mine did just that.

Having left the military many years ago, he came into civilian flying by obtaining an NPPL with SSEA, which was a shortened course because of the appropriate exemptions for his considerable previous military experience on both single- and multi-engined.

A year or two later he wanted to get back into twin flying as well. However, an NPPL was not appropriate as it does not extend beyond single-engine so he underwent an MEP course, applied for and was issued with a JAR-PPL with only an MEP rating. Thus he held a PPL/MEP with no SEP.

It is therefore not only possible but it has been done - and why not?

JD

[BillieBob]

JD - One supposes that the OP is referring to undertaking an ab-initio PPL course whereas your acquaintance was already a professional pilot - hardly a valid comparison.

There is, as has been pointed out, no restriction on the class or type of aeroplane on which a PPL may be undertaken (except that it must be certified for single-pilot operation). If money is of no object, it is certainly achievable and could, in theory, be completed in as little as 105 hours flight time.

[IO540]

The other thing which is possible but nobody in the UK will do it is doing a PPL in a "complex" plane e.g. a TB20 (which is not in any way "complex", relatively speaking...).

[Jumbo Driver]

Originally Posted by BillieBob

JD - One supposes that the OP is referring to undertaking an ab-initio PPL course whereas your acquaintance was already a professional pilot - hardly a valid comparison.

No, BillieBob, he was not a professional pilot as you are implying, although he had plenty of experience. Neither was he remotely current when he took his NPPL a few years ago. He had retired from the RAF in the late 1960's and, prior to achieving the NPPL, had never held a civil licence.

In any event, his example shows that it is perfectly possible to achieve and hold a PPL with just an MEP rating, without needing an SEP qualification, which I thought was what vjmehra was asking with his "slightly odd question".

I can see no reason (apart from cost) that a PPL/MEP could not be achieved through an ab-initio course.

JD

[BackPacker]

Can a (properly rated, ie. FI/MEP) instructor sign somebody out to fly a MEP solo, without a license?

I thought all MEP training, plus the MEP skills test, was all done dual, so the first time a (SEP) pilot would fly a MEP solo was when he/she would have the license in hand. So there might not be a provision in the legal framework to let somebody solo on a MEP before license issue.

And of course we're not talking about a few circuits here. As the requirement for a MEP rating is 70 hours PIC, you're talking about some significant solo time under the responsibility of an instructor.

My gut feeling says that this might be something to throw a spanner in the works. Then again, I have not checked the ANO or JAR-FCL, so I might be wrong.

[vjmehra]

Yep spot on, that was what I was asking!

Whilst I appreciate this may not be the most practical way to do things, its an interesting debate at least!

Also, I often seem to read on these forums people satying get as many hours as you can on type, so if you intend to fly twins, post ppl, this seems to make sense.

Just to explain my personal situation a bit more...

I was all set to start my SEP PPL at the start of this year, had a trial lesson in a C-152, PA-28 140 and then a PA-28 180, was all set to begin training with Willow Air at Southend in a C-172 when of course they went bust :-(

Since then two things have stopped me flying...one I bought a boat!!! Secondly the missus is incredibly concerned about flying in a single engine plane, which also means she's terrified about me doing it! Hence, I was wondering if there was a potential way round this, as that would make her feel better, knowing at least that I have the extra engine! Also, just by a twist of fate a potential job opportunity has come up for me in Switzerland and whilst I appreciate even if I started flying now I might be years away from being able to fly there from the UK, it may be a fun objective to try and achieve one day.

So in short, my logic is, that once PPL qualified, I would attempt an MEP rating anyway, therefore whilst the cost is clearly an issue in reality, it is good to know this route could be theoretically possible!

[Duchess_Driver]

pilot would fly a MEP solo was when he/she would have the license in hand.

There is no requirement to have the license issued straight after skill test - as I'm sure you're aware - and indeed PLD wouldn't issue the rating (or license) without 70hours PIC. I have looked into this issue an have yet to find any reason why it cannot be done. Not the norm...but hey?

Just trying to workout why it's a minimum of 105 hours.... surely 70 solo + 25 dual makes 95? (providing top notch student..all ducks lined up etc...???)

[BackPacker]

Secondly the missus is incredibly concerned about flying in a single engine plane, which also means she's terrified about me doing it!

What might help (or hinder) you to convince the missus is that the statistics show very little safety benefit from a second engine, as long as we are talking light twins here (not airliners).

Reasons for this are very complex, and statistics can of course be manipulated any way you want, but here's the summary of how I see it:

The technical safety benefits from the second engine are relatively small since climb performance on one engine is marginal at best in low end twins, and may be completely nonexistent in unfavourable conditions. So the second engine is only taking you to the site of the crash in any case. (And with two engines there's twice that many bits that can go wrong...)

And the few technical safety benefits there are, are typically negated because pilots take twins on more dangerous missions, like IFR/night, high altitude or long overwater flights.

(Cue a long debate on technical and statistical safety benefit of twins!)

[BackPacker]

There is no requirement to have the license issued straight after skill test - as I'm sure you're aware - and indeed PLD wouldn't issue the rating (or license) without 70hours PIC.

That doesn't really matter. You need 70 hours PIC time before license issue. Whether those hours are flown all before the skills test, or partly after your skills test doesn't really matter: You are a student and flying under the responsibility of an instructor.

[Duchess_Driver]

That doesn't really matter. You need 70 hours PIC time before license issue.

which was the point I was trying to make. You can indeed do the skills test before the 70 hours P1 is reached then make up the remainder flying solo under the authorization of an FI before applying for the MEP Class rating and License.

[BillieBob]

Can a (properly rated, ie. FI/MEP) instructor sign somebody out to fly a MEP solo, without a license[sic]?

Yes.

Just trying to workout why it's a minimum of 105 hours

Because I wasn't concentrating when I made the last post! You are quite correct, of course

No, BillieBob, he was not a professional pilot

Ah, when you referred to "appropriate exemptions for his considerable previous military experience on both single- and multi-engined", I sort of assumed that he was a pilot. In any case, it does not change the fact that he did not undertake an ab-initio PPL course in a twin, which was the subject of the original question.