EASA AND THE IMCR - NEWS
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Some STARs at airports near mine are for prop and turboprops and others are for medium and large jets.
).It's all radar vectored, and ATC don't have a problem with that.
If an airport goes procedural, its capacity falls by a factor of several times.
SIDs are operated more than STARs but at the busiest airports you get taken over by radar anyway, when departing.
Anyway, GA won't be going to any of these airports (just as they don't currently) because the management there has set up a price-fixed handling cartel comprising of Signature and Harrods handling at £400 a pop
Why on earth the whole IR issue is not addressed with a view to making it more akin to the US model is beyond me
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I think Timothy's comments are more directed at operations into Dublin, Geneva, Prague, Barcelona, etc. rather than Southampton, New Castle ....
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Prague is a piece of cake; very relaxed. Radar in and out.
Barcelona I don't know, but Spanish ATC is something else Last time I went that way they gave me a DCT to Valencia and changed their mind after a few mins to a DCT to Barcelona...
When I was departing from Valencia the following day, some anonymous Ryanair pilot, who had been calling for a departure clearance for about 20 mins, said "welcome to the 3rd world of Europe". ATC didn't comment; prob99 this exceeded their ICAO Level minus 5 English Language Proficiency.
Barcelona I don't know, but Spanish ATC is something else
Last time I went that way they gave me a DCT to Valencia and changed their mind after a few mins to a DCT to Barcelona... When I was departing from Valencia the following day, some anonymous Ryanair pilot, who had been calling for a departure clearance for about 20 mins, said "welcome to the 3rd world of Europe". ATC didn't comment; prob99 this exceeded their ICAO Level minus 5 English Language Proficiency.
Sub Judice Angel Lovegod
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This is how these threads meander
Yes. It's possible now.
Will it be possible with twice as many GA aircraft in the system?
Four times?
Twenty times?
That was my original question 100 posts ago.
Yes. It's possible now.
Will it be possible with twice as many GA aircraft in the system?
Four times?
Twenty times?
That was my original question 100 posts ago.
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Timothy
Flying airways is not always the best option and probably better suited to long trips.
Even moving the Citation I make cost decisions do I fly the pocket rocket VFR below CAS and make the trip from A to B in 25 minutes or file IFR and take 45-50 minutes.
Flying low level IFR in the south of the UK in something like a Seneca is a pain in the kneck. Very often you are routed by ATC in totally the wrong direction and away from everywhere ATC dont want you. Your trip and costs go up dramatically. You end up thinking whether its worth it?
The same will go in many areas of Europe. Trundle down the west coast of france and you may be ok.
Then what aircraft? Is it worth struggling a typical non turbo piston into the levels to get in airways? taking all year to get there?
Go further north into Scotland and how often will you get conditions which allow you to become VMC for a VFR flight at your descent waypoint.
I actually wonder how useful in reality this EIR is going to be?
Pace
Flying airways is not always the best option and probably better suited to long trips.
Even moving the Citation I make cost decisions do I fly the pocket rocket VFR below CAS and make the trip from A to B in 25 minutes or file IFR and take 45-50 minutes.
Flying low level IFR in the south of the UK in something like a Seneca is a pain in the kneck. Very often you are routed by ATC in totally the wrong direction and away from everywhere ATC dont want you. Your trip and costs go up dramatically. You end up thinking whether its worth it?
The same will go in many areas of Europe. Trundle down the west coast of france and you may be ok.
Then what aircraft? Is it worth struggling a typical non turbo piston into the levels to get in airways? taking all year to get there?
Go further north into Scotland and how often will you get conditions which allow you to become VMC for a VFR flight at your descent waypoint.
I actually wonder how useful in reality this EIR is going to be?
Pace
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Anything North South North of less than a couple of hundred miles is a complete waste of time airways in the UK. I can cover pretty much anywhere in that distance in not much over an hour and in all but the worst of weather its better to stay below or in it as fight your way up and back down.
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That is true - except in the winter in a scenario like
OVC005
Tops 5000ft (stratus)
sfc temp -3C
You can't fly at 400ft and you won't want to fly 200nm OCAS i.e. at 2400ft / 3400ft / 4400ft because you will be in IMC and are more or less guaranteed to pick up structural ice over that distance.
If you have an IR, you can climb up to VMC, fly the 200nm at the lowest practical IFR/enroute level (FL090 plus; I would just go for FL140 because that is where the Eurocontrol routings get good and there is less risk of dropping out of CAS which causes London Control to instantly drop you back to London Info and then you are screwed again) and descend at the far end.
Notably also if the tops are 5000ft then you can prob99 climb to VMC while OCAS (e.g. FL054 if on the south coast) and this means you are not going to get trapped in hazardous wx while waiting for the IFR clearance; you can zoom up to FL054 on your own and be in sunshine while waiting for the powers to be to get their act together.
BTW, regarding the postings which fairly forcefully claimed the the EIR is just an IR with a higher MDA ... AFAICS this is not true because of the ban on flying STARs. The upshot of this "little detail" is that if e.g. your enroute section was at FL100 then the EIR is an IR with an MDA of FL100. I suspect this is a c0ckup.
OVC005
Tops 5000ft (stratus)
sfc temp -3C
You can't fly at 400ft
and you won't want to fly 200nm OCAS i.e. at 2400ft / 3400ft / 4400ft because you will be in IMC and are more or less guaranteed to pick up structural ice over that distance.If you have an IR, you can climb up to VMC, fly the 200nm at the lowest practical IFR/enroute level (FL090 plus; I would just go for FL140 because that is where the Eurocontrol routings get good and there is less risk of dropping out of CAS which causes London Control to instantly drop you back to London Info and then you are screwed again) and descend at the far end.
Notably also if the tops are 5000ft then you can prob99 climb to VMC while OCAS (e.g. FL054 if on the south coast) and this means you are not going to get trapped in hazardous wx while waiting for the IFR clearance; you can zoom up to FL054 on your own and be in sunshine while waiting for the powers to be to get their act together.
BTW, regarding the postings which fairly forcefully claimed the the EIR is just an IR with a higher MDA ... AFAICS this is not true because of the ban on flying STARs. The upshot of this "little detail" is that if e.g. your enroute section was at FL100 then the EIR is an IR with an MDA of FL100. I suspect this is a c0ckup.
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OK but that means no flying during much of the winter.
My scenario can be expanded to more benign ones e.g.
SCT010
Tops 3000ft (blue sky visible through holes)
0C
You would not fly 200nm in that, in southern UK, OCAS.
My scenario can be expanded to more benign ones e.g.
SCT010
Tops 3000ft (blue sky visible through holes)
0C
You would not fly 200nm in that, in southern UK, OCAS.
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10540
I would be very cautious of taking off where the temperatures meant any ice I picked up I would hold to the ground.
That is especially true of low powered non deice/anti ice piston singles.
It is hard to determine tops and whther those tops 40 miles down road dont go up.
My best friend a ferry pilot was killed in such an aircraft believing he could get between layers and out of icing.
Its ok picking up ice if you know that dropping to MSA will see the lot melt off.
With any IFR/IMC flying the pilot has to be up to the job but being up to the job means knowing and respecting the limitations of his aircraft.
If both pilot and aircraft are up to the job thats another matter.
Usually icing to the ground and fog are the two states which concern me and I fly all year in almost anything but the smallest aircraft I fly are deiced anti iced turbo Seneca 5s.
I would be very cautious in anything serious if its a single piston.
I do know what you are getting at but just add that word of cautious for our newer less experienced IMCR pilots.
Pace
I would be very cautious of taking off where the temperatures meant any ice I picked up I would hold to the ground.
That is especially true of low powered non deice/anti ice piston singles.
It is hard to determine tops and whther those tops 40 miles down road dont go up.
My best friend a ferry pilot was killed in such an aircraft believing he could get between layers and out of icing.
Its ok picking up ice if you know that dropping to MSA will see the lot melt off.
With any IFR/IMC flying the pilot has to be up to the job but being up to the job means knowing and respecting the limitations of his aircraft.
If both pilot and aircraft are up to the job thats another matter.
Usually icing to the ground and fog are the two states which concern me and I fly all year in almost anything but the smallest aircraft I fly are deiced anti iced turbo Seneca 5s.
I would be very cautious in anything serious if its a single piston.
I do know what you are getting at but just add that word of cautious for our newer less experienced IMCR pilots.
Pace
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I would be very cautious of taking off where the temperatures meant any ice I picked up I would hold to the ground.
That is especially true of low powered non deice/anti ice piston singles.
That is especially true of low powered non deice/anti ice piston singles.
If you have a base of say 1000ft and you can see blue sky, and there is no obvious substantial vertical development, the tops will be about 3000-4000ft, and rarely if ever will ice be picked up during a +1000fpm climb.
It is hard to determine tops and whther those tops 40 miles down road dont go up.
It needs to be done intelligently, but one needs to be careful to not simply ban all flight in any IMC if the surface temp is below 0C. But yes this issue (landing with any ice picked up) does particularly cripple flight on the IMCR in the winter.
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10540
Really for any serious flight you need approved anti/de ice. I scared myself silly years ago in a Saratoga with a pre forecast front moving west to east and me flying north to south from Scotland.
It was just the situation you mentioned happily on top at FL6O below CAS with freezing levels well down into the terrain below.
Staying below airways the aircraft entered cloud and iced up forcing me to climb.
Eventually breaking out into final blue at FL120. Yes in CAS but having informed ATC of the problem.
That was in the days when you could speak to a met briefing guy who told me that I would beat the front if I was off before X time.
FL120 was it! No more climb covered in ice. Not a good situation. Glad when I cleared the frontal system down near Liverpool
Suppose thats what they call experience
Pace
Really for any serious flight you need approved anti/de ice. I scared myself silly years ago in a Saratoga with a pre forecast front moving west to east and me flying north to south from Scotland.
It was just the situation you mentioned happily on top at FL6O below CAS with freezing levels well down into the terrain below.
Staying below airways the aircraft entered cloud and iced up forcing me to climb.
Eventually breaking out into final blue at FL120. Yes in CAS but having informed ATC of the problem.
That was in the days when you could speak to a met briefing guy who told me that I would beat the front if I was off before X time.
FL120 was it! No more climb covered in ice. Not a good situation. Glad when I cleared the frontal system down near Liverpool
Suppose thats what they call experience
Pace
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Yes but you are talking about crossing fronts with sfc temp below zero, which is a different magnitude of risk altogether.
I would never do that and I rarely go anywhere near fronts (except fly straight over the top, enroute, up to FL200 if necessary) even in the summer.
Once, flying with an instructor "who knew everything" (but it turned out had never been anywhere) I was collecting ice rapidly at FL090 over Germany, in August. We had to descend rapidly from FL120 to 080. Best to not play with frontal wx at all, unless you have de-ice and radar
Another risk in departing with sfc temp below zero is that any delay in collecting the IFR clearance from London Control is going to put one in hazardous wx, for an indefinite period. So a departure from an unmanned airfield, or one which can't/won't call up LC for the initial clearance, is a no-no if the cloudbase is low.
I would never do that and I rarely go anywhere near fronts (except fly straight over the top, enroute, up to FL200 if necessary) even in the summer.
Once, flying with an instructor "who knew everything" (but it turned out had never been anywhere) I was collecting ice rapidly at FL090 over Germany, in August. We had to descend rapidly from FL120 to 080. Best to not play with frontal wx at all, unless you have de-ice and radar
Another risk in departing with sfc temp below zero is that any delay in collecting the IFR clearance from London Control is going to put one in hazardous wx, for an indefinite period. So a departure from an unmanned airfield, or one which can't/won't call up LC for the initial clearance, is a no-no if the cloudbase is low.
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10540
That is the whole point with long distance flying which knowing about you you have to an art to.
But with this new EIR we are not talking about pilots with experience like yours.
Summertime and you can still be in freezing levels at 10 to 12K. Trundling up and down to the S of France at FL380 or FL390 in the Citation I fly gives a good picture of weather below and it is rare to NOT have fronts of one kind or another for part of the route.
Pilots using the EIR on long distance flying (which will be its main use) Will have to be extra vigilant and selective of when they go especially the Newbie guys and especially in non turbo, non deice/anti ice low powered piston singles.
VFR MAY be the better option? At least you can do a 180 and land somewhere back from whence you came.
They wont all have guardian angels like I have had in my past.
Pace
That is the whole point with long distance flying which knowing about you you have to an art to.
But with this new EIR we are not talking about pilots with experience like yours.
Summertime and you can still be in freezing levels at 10 to 12K. Trundling up and down to the S of France at FL380 or FL390 in the Citation I fly gives a good picture of weather below and it is rare to NOT have fronts of one kind or another for part of the route.
Pilots using the EIR on long distance flying (which will be its main use) Will have to be extra vigilant and selective of when they go especially the Newbie guys and especially in non turbo, non deice/anti ice low powered piston singles.
VFR MAY be the better option? At least you can do a 180 and land somewhere back from whence you came.
They wont all have guardian angels like I have had in my past.
Pace
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Pace,
There is another risk multiplier here, which is that picking up ice does not necessarily mean instant death. I'm sorry about your mate, but his experience does not mean that an unexpected ice encounter in a non-deiced aircraft will kill everyone.
So, if we accept Peter's suggestion that (if you are educated and sensible) mostly there will be no icing, then multiply by the Timothy factor that even if you do, you will almost certainly survive, you end up accepting that death by icing is a rare event which you can rank with death by suction failure or death by engine failure.
There is another risk multiplier here, which is that picking up ice does not necessarily mean instant death. I'm sorry about your mate, but his experience does not mean that an unexpected ice encounter in a non-deiced aircraft will kill everyone.
So, if we accept Peter's suggestion that (if you are educated and sensible) mostly there will be no icing, then multiply by the Timothy factor that even if you do, you will almost certainly survive, you end up accepting that death by icing is a rare event which you can rank with death by suction failure or death by engine failure.
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Timothy
Totally agree! Thought that was what I said which is basically you have to respect the weather as well as your own and your aircrafts limitations. Then this EIR will work well.
Sadly some wont and I can see no end of problems that the EIR as it stands does not address.
Pace
Totally agree! Thought that was what I said which is basically you have to respect the weather as well as your own and your aircrafts limitations. Then this EIR will work well.
Sadly some wont and I can see no end of problems that the EIR as it stands does not address.
Pace
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But with this new EIR we are not talking about pilots with experience like yours.
You won't even know how to generate a Eurocontrol acceptable route from say EGKK to say LKPR, and maybe that offers a good protection from icing conditions
In fact I would say, only partly tongue in cheek, that the reason why the present training system hangs together and has hung together for decades is because most people who pass through it either rarely if ever use the privileges, or they don't fly at all (maybe fly a kite) until they get a RHS job in a +6000fpm-capable deiced tank with radar and an old training captain in the LHS.
What is one going to do about that?
EASA doesn't offer a solution. Nobody else does and nobody else ever will because that is how it has always been. The business model is to sell training time and flying time, not to produce pilots who can fly from A to B. If you were to do that you would need to do scenario based training which nobody is doing (in Europe) and it probably would not be ICAO compliant unless you lumped it on the end of the existing sterile stuff.
Fortunately the accident stats suggest that most people are smart enough to fly conservatively, or some unknown % don't fly at all.
Actually I think the uptake of any IR will always be largely limited to aircraft owners, or members of the small number of wholly-IFR syndicates, and these people tend to have the motivation to get clued up. They would get clued up whether they have an EIR or the full IR.
My biggest gripe with the EIR right now is the ban on SIDs and STARs. I think that is simply a c0ckup, done after the whole thing was drafted. The requirement to cancel IFR at the terminating point of the enroute segment, say FL100-FL150 or whatever, is barmy. You could be 50nm from the destination for which you got the tafs and metars, and will have to proceed in VMC, presumably along the STAR route you would have flown anyway (ATC are not likely to want you anywhere else) and then hopefully you will encounter the weather conditions expected.