Minimum ceiling for enginr failures IFR

[what next]

Good morning!

We all play Russian Roulette in terminal areas at many airports.

Why would "we all" do that? The majority of airports I fly to and have flown to offer enough chances for a forced landing (with a single, not with a triple seven of course!) under their approach and departure routes. And the ones that don't, I won't fly to in a single. (ex) Berlin Tempelhof comes to mind, where several fatal accidents with SEPs have occurred over the years following engine failures during approach or departure. In a twin or bizjet on the other hand, Tempelhof was one of the finest destinations in Europe!

Regarding the issue with examiners' preferences, they fly daily and have to do it in both FTO hardware...

And I would say, the same applies to instructors and all other (semi) professional aviators as well. And I would also say, that this applies to every self-flying businessman when he is not the sole occupant of his aircraft. Employees can't usually say "no" when their boss takes them on a business trip in his aircraft, but they have the right to be protected from being part of the russian roulette game of their "owner"!

The above stuff costs peanuts. To cover for a vac pump failure, you have...

In the year 2011, all you really need is the latest generation iPhone or iPad. For 400 currency units, it gives you sufficient attitude information (via solid state gyros), navigation (GPS based, with free VFR and IFR enrout charts and even with approach plates if you pay for them) and communication (from the altitude at which singles mostly operate, you can call almost every air traffic controller by phone, just make sure that you have the relevant numbers stored in your phone). And the battery lasts longer than the fuel in your tank.

[IO540]

I will leave the Russian Roulette debate now as it has been done to death, other than to say that based on your principles there would be no SE flight, other than a few trivial routes.

In the year 2011, all you really need is the latest generation iPhone or iPad. For 400 currency units, it gives you sufficient attitude information (via solid state gyros),

I don't think these are self erecting i.e. if you fly in a 30 degree coordinated turn for a bit, the "gyro" will indicate a level roll attitude.

That is the fundamental issue which all solid state gyros have; one has to introduce GPS or airdata, to "fix them up" when straight and level flight is indicated externally.

What app do you use? We have both types of Church of Jobs media players / pigeon english messengers (an Iphone4 and an Ipad2) kicking around the house.

The Garmin 496 "instrument panel" with its fake gyros actually works properly and does so in a long term sense - so long as you avoid getting into a serious unusual attitude. It works by crunching the GPS trajectory data.

you can call almost every air traffic controller by phone, just make sure that you have the relevant numbers stored in your phone).

Here in the UK, there is rarely any GSM connectivity above 1000-2000ft. I do have a satellite phone though They are £300 on Ebay now... but the controllers are not on the phone (on public numbers). Only their assistants are. It ought to work in an emergency, but a handheld radio is a whole lot easier. There is no way to hear a mobile phone in a typical piston cockpit. I guess one could construct a headset adapter for an Iphone, or use a bluetooth connection with the Bose A20 or Zulu headsets.

And the battery lasts longer than the fuel in your tank.

Not in my TB20, if the Ipad is on max brightness, which it needs to be to be anywhere near bright daylight readable. About 5hrs. I am getting a power unit sorted though.

[Pace]

I will leave the Russian Roulette debate now as it has been done to death, other than to say that based on your principles there would be no SE flight, other than a few trivial routes.

10540

Its not so much a question of SE but different horses for different courses.
You would no sooner take off into known icing conditions in a PA28 than I hope you would not takeoff in a PA28 to fly over 200 nm of fog.
Pilots do these things! Pilots Ferry singles across the north Atlantic summer and winter! Knowing the sea I would not be comfortable doing that although I do ferry multi engine.

I know of a colleague who is a jet jockey like myself who came up through ferrying. He ran out of fuel ferrying over the north Atlantic (ferry tank transfer problem) Glided IMC breaking out at 500 feet above the only fishing boat in the north Atlantic.

He had to spend a week on board before the fishing boat returned to the mainland. What a lucky guy.

So all I am saying is that a single engine club aircraft is not designed for all weather flying. There are pilots who will use them for all weather flying and night flying but they are increasing their RISK dramatically by using aircraft that are not up to the job.

I have had 3 engine failures not caused by mismanagement. 2 were partial 1 was full so I am sorry but I do not have the confidence that some hold on Piston engines and would be wary of taking my aircraft and PAX into a situation where there are "no outs" if the only door closes on me.

Pace

[what next]

...based on your principles there would be no SE flight, other than a few trivial routes.

That's really not true! Coming back to the original question, observing a reasonable minimum ceiling you can take the factor "luck" almost completely out of the equation. Where I fly SE IFR, this value is 1000ft, and it is not flat, uninhabited terrain, but there are mountainous regions like the Black Forest and also some larger cities and towns instead!

I don't think these are self erecting i.e. if you fly in a 30 degree coordinated turn for a bit, the "gyro" will indicate a level roll attitude.

Yes, of course. But that is not what you will do in a limited-panel emergency situation. All you need is to keep you wings level and work with small changes in pitch and direction from there on. Just like you would when flying with turn-coordinator, magnetic compass and altimeter.

What app do you use?

Myself none, because I don't have an iPhone or iPad (although I've been a Macintosh user for over 20 years). But all our students and co-pilots play with these things all the time, so I feel very safe in the event of an instrument failure

Here in the UK, there is rarely any GSM connectivity above 1000-2000ft.

Really? During single-engine flying (rarely above FL80 in my case), I usually leave the mobile phones on and have a connetion most of the time.

It ought to work in an emergency, but a handheld radio is a whole lot easier.

Sure. But every pilot has a mobile phone and very few have a handheld radio. And even those with a radio - when did they last charge their battery?

...but the controllers are not on the phone (on public numbers).

Many tower controllers are, especially at smaller (but controlled) airports! We need to call them all the time to co-ordinate our training approaches. And if you have the first one on the phone, he will be able to either connect you to the next one or at least to relay your message. Talking to ATC on the phone even briefly with a bad connection in case of communication failure will take most of the stress away from the emergency.

[IO540]

But every pilot has a mobile phone and very few have a handheld radio. And even those with a radio - when did they last charge their battery?

This kind of thing has to be done properly. With an Icom-type radio, you have the standard NIMH battery, which one needs to fully discharge and recharge say every 6 months (and which IME has substantial capacity left at that point), and you should also carry a second battery which is made from an Icom empty battery pack (very cheap, about £20 I think) packed with lithium cells which have a shelf life of about 20 years. Put a bit of insulating tape over the terminals so it doesn't get shorted in the "emergency bag"

During single-engine flying (rarely above FL80 in my case), I usually leave the mobile phones on and have a connetion most of the time.

Not here.

An SMS occassionally gets through, even at much higher altitudes.

[Fuji Abound]

500 feet seems ok as you dont really want to pull the chute much lower.

[Contacttower]

I have on several occasions tried to get signal at FL90/100 over both the UK and France recently and although sometimes the phone will claim to have signal it won't actually send anything.

[Big Pistons Forever]

Originally Posted by Pace

10540


So all I am saying is that a single engine club aircraft is not designed for all weather flying. There are pilots who will use them for all weather flying and night flying but they are increasing their RISK dramatically by using aircraft that are not up to the job.

Pace

Exactly. And IO540 I do not think you can extrapolate the capabilities of the Cessna 400/ Piper Malibu/FIKI turbo'd G3 Cirrus across the GA fleet as these very capable singles represent a small proportion of the fleet.

Your point about the capabilities of the latest generation of portable GPS "instrument panels" is very valid as now any aircraft can have a truely redundent blind flying panel which will keep you right side up when all else has failed.

In any case what I post seems to bother you as you seem incapable of agreeing with anything I post so I will refrain from derailing any more threads with any discussion on topics you seem very invested in.

Cheers

BPF

[IO540]

And IO540 I do not think you can extrapolate the capabilities of the Cessna 400/ Piper Malibu/FIKI turbo'd G3 Cirrus across the GA fleet as these very capable singles represent a small proportion of the fleet.

I don't recall ever suggesting that one could do the same thing with a PA28-140 as one can do with a Cessna 400. Did I ?

The vast majority of the "spamcan" fleet is unsuitable for high altitude ("Eurocontrol") IFR, except at the very bottom end e.g. FL100 on nice days. The maintenance practices are also often dodgy.

I fly a TB20, which has a deiced prop, a 20k ceiling, oxygen, etc, is maintained with money being no object, I do 100-150hrs/year in it, and my attitudes to risk are based on that.

In any case what I post seems to bother you as you seem incapable of agreeing with anything I post so I will refrain from derailing any more threads with any discussion on topics you seem very invested in.

I don't have any problem with what you write. You have one attitude to risk and I have another. No problem with that. We all make decisions according our attitudes to risk.

I am actually more cautious than most IFR pilots I know (for example I don't do any significant IMC enroute at "Eurocontrol" altitudes) and this is one reason I don't go on group flying trips because I would just get left behind at the first bit of frontal weather which the others are quite happy to drill through.

What I disagree with is if somebody has an illogical attitude e.g. won't fly above known fog but will fly above an overcast under which could be unknown patches of fog.

[Pace]

10540

What I disagree with is if somebody has an illogical attitude e.g. won't fly above known fog but will fly above an overcast under which could be unknown patches of fog.

I totally agree with you that we all have different attitudes to risk. Some pilots will do things that others would not contemplate.

If you want NO risk in aviation do not climb into an aircraft full stop! from that point on its about how much risk you are prepared to take and how to minimise those levels of risk.

I dont understand your analysis highlighted above?

If I was flying a single prop over an overcast or through frontal weather I would want to know whether I was likely to break cloud enroute in the vent of an engine failure.

If flying over mountains in a glide would I hit terrain still IMC?

Over low ground would I be able to make a visual landing?

I would look at the weather over my planned track. I would check temps and dewpoints but above all I would take all the airfields enroute and get actuals and Tafs.

If as you say I descended through an overcast to see patchy fog then I would land in an area that didnt hold a patch of fog as simple as that.

If I descended through an overcast and there was extensive fog then I am the fool as no one to blame but me

Or for night and fog SE I would buy a nice Cirrus and pull the shute
Never ever do anything in aviation without an out at least the Cirrus gives you an out
I have in the past taken huge risks flying so I am not talking from a holier than thou position but I do try to balance those risks by having a number of options.
On the occasions that I have done something with no options left then I must admit to feeling **** scared till its over and thanked whoever your God is for sparing me.

Pace

[IO540]

I don't disagree in principle, Pace, but I will accept short time windows where there is very low cloud (or fog) in the context of a long flight.

My reasoning for this is that it is not practical to avoid it comprehensively.

Let's say you are doing an 800nm flight. The only idea you have of surface conditions (in any reliable sense) are METARs obtained immediately before the flight. A few might feature fog or low vis etc but they are only reporting conditions within a very limited radius of the aerodrome, and your glide distance from say FL150 is going to be way longer than that.

You could get the UKMO visible image which will show fog banks, but only if the conditions are otherwise blue-sky. And there is no way to use this to distinguish between solid fog and a layer 3000ft thick with a 1000ft base, because the tops temperatures will be very similar. Nevertheless I have used this image to see what a large chunk of coastal fog was doing, on an otherwise clear day.

[Pace]

I have left the UK in the past in CAVOK Got to the channel and crossed with extensive fog over the channel!

One occasion the fog was so thin there was almost a Salvidor Dali picture of ships funnels carving trails through the fog

I was in a twin.

Having said that in a single in that situation I would have had an out. Fog is likely to equal calm glass like sea.

Thin fog and maybe a radar altimeter set at 30 feet! Flair and chances are you may do a half reasonable landing on the sea surface

Pace

[IO540]

I don't see a special hazard in ditching in fog, relative to ditching without fog, especially as (as you say) the sea state is likely to be calm.

A radalt? I know a few TB20 pilots who have put in a KRA10. I wonder what they use it for.

[what next]

A radalt? I know a few TB20 pilots who have put in a KRA10. I wonder what they use it for.

A radio altimeter is an excellent reminder that you have reached your minimum. Over the years, I had countless incidentens with students and infrequent IFR-flyers who were so busy keeping their ILS needles centered that they forgot to look at the altimeter. In the procedures trainer, I let them continue to touchdown without intervening. You should see their puzzled faces when they suddenly hear the "squeak" sound from the tires (or the "crash" sound if the sink rate is too high or they land beside the runway)! "Why was that?" is the usual answer...

Another use is as a primitive ground proximity warning system. Everybody has heard (or should have heard) about the calculation of "minimum usable flight levels" in non-ISA atmospheric conditions. But how many actually perform this calculation when they fly IFR over mountainous terrain in underpowered aircraft? A radio altimeter ca save your day then. Of course, modern GPS based avionics have a much better terrain warning built into them, but not every little club aircraft has them.

[Pace]

I don't see a special hazard in ditching in fog,

I do No one would find you! maybe a long pole with a flag you could stick up through the fog and wave to passing ships before one ran over you

Serious though I had a nasty experience years ago with a jammed fuel selector and unforecast extensive fog.
Low on fuel I took to a military base who were colour code red and had a PAR, talked all the way down to an 80 foot cloud base and 400 vis
After that I tried to see whether it was possible to land in zero zero conditions using a radar alt for the flair.
Tried the experiment on an ILS in VMC with a safety pilot and yes I feel confident in an emergency its quite feasible using a rad alt in a Seneca Twin.

Pace

[Local Variation]

Has been debated at our Club on numerous occassions.

Based on cloud OVC, SEP IMCR PPL, we reakon 1800 feet over land. The situation is an emergency, which when in cloud could lead to distraction followed by loss of situational awareness and associated loss of control. Any passengers in the back are going to panic big time and will distract the PIC.

Coming out the bottom of the cloud without an engine / or fire without the view of a landing site is going to test the best. Worst case could see the a/c well out of straight and level.

We based 1800 feet on a real emergency event where the a/c was close to being inverted and needed all of that to recover.

It's all down to experience and is therefore subjective. My CFI told me that I would need 1800 minimum feet given my experience and as such if it OVC for the route, I want 2000 feet to play with (I'm hopeless at forced landings).

[IO540]

A radio altimeter is an excellent reminder that you have reached your minimum

Only at airports whose approach terrain has been suitably prepared for radalt-based approaches (Cat3 only I think).

Those approaches switch the lateral autopilot guidance to the radalt at about 150ft which is well before the start of the runway.

Another use is as a primitive ground proximity warning system.

Very primitive; the beam points only slightly forward, so it will warn only against gradually rising ground.

Look up that seminal Mt Erebus crash. They had a radalt. It gave them just a few secs' warning. They pulled up to max, but too late. The only GPWS which actually works is a GPS plus a terrain map; mandatory in all transport planes over X seats.

Of course, modern GPS based avionics have a much better terrain warning built into them, but not every little club aircraft has them.

Yes; a £1000 Garmin 496, with its audio output wired to the intercom, is a vastly better "GPWS" than a £10000 KRA10 installation.

After that I tried to see whether it was possible to land in zero zero conditions using a radar alt for the flair.
Tried the experiment on an ILS in VMC with a safety pilot and yes I feel confident in an emergency its quite feasible using a rad alt in a Seneca Twin.

A reasonable autopilot will do that for you too, on an ILS. It will take you to the runway, and you will definitely have enough surface visibility at that point no matter how thick the fog is.

Based on cloud OVC, SEP IMCR PPL, we reakon 1800 feet over land

That seems OTT, because you could fly below the cloud, VFR, well above the MSA

[Local Variation]

I should enhance the qualification of that.

1800 feet was based on flight in the cloud (not on top nor below) with the sky overcast.

The VFR flight under MSA would obviously work, but the original question was, I assumed, regarding flight out of sight of the surface, eg IMC in an SEP.

[Pace]

A reasonable autopilot will do that for you too, on an ILS. It will take you to the runway, and you will definitely have enough surface visibility at that point no matter how thick the fog is

10540

Many wont! S Tech fitted to later Seneca Fives are rubbish King units fitted to earlier aircraft much better.
The S tech is fine further out on the localiser and glide but starts hunting the narrower the beam becomes.
In dense fog even coupled to the ILS how are you going to find a flair point without something like a radar alt?
The Radar Alt is a good bit of kit at low cost.

Pace

[IO540]

STec are made by Stec (now owned by Cobham), not King. Stec autopilots have rubbish performance (they are driven from the TC, not the AI, so they have no decent pitch/roll input) but they rule the retrofit roost because King (Honeywell) washed their hands of GA avionics 10 years ago (having overpriced them for years, with e.g. my KFC225 costing about $40k) and Stec ended up generating a load of STCs which made them easy to install.

However if your Stec autopilot is not capable of flying an ILS all the way down to the height specified in the POH, without oscillation, then it is a duff unit, a bodged installation, the unit has the wrong loop gain (etc) set up, or the STC it was installed under is duff (there are a few duff STCs around).