Gliding package aimed at PPLs

[ProfChrisReed]

I'm trying to devise a fixed price to solo package for my gliding club which is aimed at PPL holders - the theory is that they can already fly an aircraft, and so will need less training to reach solo standard. We can work out what differences need to be mastered, but it would help to have answers to three questions:

1. Is there likely to be any demand? If PPL holders are (generally) not interested in gliding then I can stop wasting my time.

2. Are there any expectations a PPL holder would have which I'd need to take into account? Gliding clubs are, sort of, co-operatives, rather than commercial organisations, and I can envisage a certain amount of culture shock which would need to be managed to avoid driving the PPL away, unhappy.

3. If we do this, what's the best way of letting PPLs know? Do I stand outside local airfields with sandwich boards and leaflets?

All advice welcomed, particularly from those who know both worlds.

[thing]

I think you might attract those who like a 'club' atmosphere and being around like minded individuals for a day, you get those at powered clubs as well, people who will pop down for most of the day.

However, for a lot of powered pilots who have been used to booking an a/c out for an hour, maybe arriving an hour before and leaving an hour afterwards, after having had lunch with wife/significant other in the club restaurant, asking them to spend 12 hours and the rest at a gliding site in the summer with chocolate bars and soft drinks in a cool box and a nice dry patch of grass for significant other to sit on with maybe a couple of ten minute circuits (or indeed no flying at all) may be as you say a bit of a shock.

I have a foot in both camps and it's a completely different culture. I may of course be totally wrong but that's how I see it. I wish you every success, personally I would like to see all powered pilots get to at least solo standard in gliders before they move to powered purely for the skills it teaches, much as I would say every car driver should ride a motorcycle first, but if you can afford to rent/share a powered a/c, go places in it with one or two other people, what's the attraction in gliding? Unless you're a flying nut (like me).

[FlyingEagle21]

How about something similar to this:

Conversion Training Course

I've been to BGC and the atmosphere is very club like and a good atmosphere at that, a lot of ATPLs, PPLs and everything in between.

[Conventional Gear]

As a PPL who might be interested, why not offer a group course?

You could then advertise at a powered club for a group of say 5 or 6 pilots to attend.

It might reduce the culture shock to be in a small group of familiar faces. I can think of at least that many people who might bite at my flying club and give it a go. Being able to chat to people I already know about the experience and all being in the same situation would help I think.

At least a group 'taster' might get things going?

[JP1]

"... asking them to spend 12 hours and the rest at a gliding site in the summer with chocolate bars and soft drinks in a cool box and a nice dry patch of grass for significant other to sit on with maybe a couple of ten minute circuits (or indeed no flying at all)"

You missed the bit about pushing the glider 1 mile back to the launch point when the instructor practises a cable break at 200ft

(well that's how far I used to push em when launched by motor tow from Farnborough's 1.5 mile runway!)

[Mechta]

Reading Pprune over the last few years, and from talking to PPLs who have joined the gliding club at which I fly, the selling points are:

• Feeling and experiencing pure flight without the distraction of an engine
• True power off stalls
• Something more than driving a cramped, noisy flying car to the next burger
• Exposure to aerobatics
• More sociable environment on the ground (perhaps)
• The challenge of staying airborne by skill instead of throttle setting
• Opportunities to fly in closer proximity to others

One gliding club had wool tufts taped to the top surface of the wings of its two-seater so students could actually see how the stall 'progressed'. Worth considering

Things that rile the PPLs are:

• The 'CFI is God' environment (particularly for experienced PPLs who have been making their own decisions for a while)
• The waiting around
• The 'You've had three launches, that's your lot' approach

If I was putting together a package to appeal to PPLs, I would focus less on the '£X to solo' and more on putting together an experience offering a mix of handling around the stall, spins,aerobatics and cross country soaring. The latter would benefit from having a self-launcher or 'turbo' so you can still go in marginal lift conditions.

As this sort of package does not appear to be currently offered, the price you charge is more down to you, and could be more lucrative.

[thing]

Reading PPRuNe over the last few years, and from talking to PPLs who have joined the gliding club at which I fly, the selling points are:

• Feeling and experiencing pure flight without the distraction of an engine
• True power off stalls
• Something more than driving a cramped, noisy flying car to the next burger
• Exposure to aerobatics
• More sociable environment on the ground (perhaps)
• The challenge of staying airborne by skill instead of throttle setting
• Opportunities to fly in closer proximity to others

All obviously plus points for gliding, and perfectly understandable from a glider pilot who crossed the murky divide (or started 'dirty' flying as my flying instructor who is also a gliding man says) between GP and PP, but it would be interesting to see what proportion of GPs go on to get a PPL compared to the number of PPLs who go on to get a silver C for instance.

Don't get me wrong, I started PP as a different flying challenge and for the obvious benefits of throwing the wife and a bag (not interchangeable before someone leaps in) in and clearing off for the weekend but GP will always be where my flying heart lies.

Two completely different disciplines.

[Cusco]

It's the standing around for hours and the silly hats that would put me off...........

[The500man]

As a power pilot that has been "thinking about gliding" for a while now but has yet to have a go I'll be interested to see what you can come up with.

I've shelved the idea for the moment and started flying aerobatics on a Pitts which is using up most of my spare cash so gliding will have to wait.

I had envisaged flight without an engine as being quite cheap, but having done a little research it isn't as cheap as I had expected. I've also discovered gliding clubs without low level Class A over them are a few hours drive away from me.

I've no idea what is involved with gliding but it does sound like there is alot of standing about pulling gliders around, among other odd jobs. My impression is that gliding isn't for someone that wants to turn up and spend a few hours in the air before going home again, which means it could be a bit too much of a commitment for people on a tight schedule.

• Something more than driving a cramped, noisy flying car to the next burger
• Exposure to aerobatics

I don't agree with this in the slightest. There are plenty of powered aircraft that are fun to fly and do more than a burger run. In my opinion the unadventurous lot that only fly basic "noisy flying cars" need a kick up the back side!

• More sociable environment on the ground (perhaps)

Most flying clubs I've visited tend to be full of "old folk". Is this not the case in gliding?

[Gertrude the Wombat]

powered pilots who have been used to booking an a/c out for an hour, maybe arriving an hour before and leaving an hour afterwards

And I'm sure there's plenty of us who have trouble finding even that much time ...

I would say every car driver should ride a motorcycle first

Now that's a good one. I reckon there would be somewhat fewer dead and mangled motorcyclists if that were enforced. (I gave up driving a bike and got rid of it many years ago now, there were just too many car drivers out to kill me.)

[Sillert,V.I.]

Originally Posted by ProfChrisReed

I'm trying to devise a fixed price to solo package for my gliding club which is aimed at PPL holders...

As a PPL holder who's had a couple of sorties in gliders, I'd say both camps have much to learn from each other.

Not sure about the 'fixed price to solo' concept, though. PPL's have vastly different experience and flying capabilities & I don't see how you could possibly make an informed judgement about how much additional training would be required for the conversion. It's hard enough to do this with ab initio students when you are at least starting from a common baseline. Also, PPL holders are familiar with the pricing structure of flying training & the problems inherent in fixed price packages & I don't think they'd see much merit in that sort of arrangement.

I have in the past organised events where a group of 5-10 PPLs would fly over to a gliding site for a few hours for an introductory session, and those events were always great fun for both glider & power pilots alike. Personally, I think that'd be a better way forward for your club if you want to attract power pilots into the fold.

[VOD80]

I've done a bit of gliding at Booker a long time ago. I got hacked off with the uncertainty and all of the waiting around. For me to get back into gliding i think that you would need to move towards the "powered flying" model, where we'd have a slot (one hour, for example) dedicated time with an instructor - to cover how ever many launches that could.

I never really understood why that couldn't be put in place. Might increase the costs a bit with needing dedicated "glider fetcher/pushers" but these could be doing it in exchange for flying anyway.

Just my two centimes!

[FlyingEagle21]

I've done a bit of gliding at Booker a long time ago. I got hacked off with the uncertainty and all of the waiting around. For me to get back into gliding i think that you would need to move towards the "powered flying" model, where we'd have a slot (one hour, for example) dedicated time with an instructor - to cover how ever many launches that could.

I never really understood why that couldn't be put in place. Might increase the costs a bit with needing dedicated "glider fetcher/pushers" but these could be doing it in exchange for flying anyway.

Just my two centimes!

You're not far off the mark, There is some what a "waiting around feel" sometimes, especially when busy. The main problem is a Gliding Club is a Club.

I think for most PPLs joining a gliding club this will be very strange, unlike a flying school club where you turn up at your allocated time and fly as a customer. At a gliding club there are paid individuals, but the majority of the work is done by members.

For most Gliding clubs/societies/centres', they operate as a club from a day to day basis, but they also act as a business (courses/trial flights) that have to be dealt with professionally.

I've been to Booker a few times and during the summer season it seemed they have employed seasonal instructors that specifically deal with trial flights etc, and also around 15+ instructors that are just club members. On top of the year round CFI.

In regards to the waiting around aspect, I recall that there is a daily schedule for each instructor on duty, with allocated times for flights (trials, courses) and they have priority. If you just turn up on the day and they can fly you, they will, but you'll be bottom of the list. Sounds Fair.

[Crash one]

Most flying clubs I've visited tend to be full of "old folk". Is this not the case in gliding?

Please advise what relevance this has.

[B4aeros]

For me to get back into gliding i think that you would need to move towards the "powered flying" model, where we'd have a slot (one hour, for example) dedicated time with an instructor - to cover how ever many launches that could.

The bigger clubs offer 1-to-1 training. A one hour slot is useless, though, you will never make any progress. Half day minimum.

[mad_jock]

Please advise what relevance this has

Because its a real hinderance in some clubs.

you get a bunch of auld farts (or middle aged in years but still a grumpy auld fart) sitting around moaning about anything,any questions the students have are treated with disdain. They just generally make everyone else want to get out the place as quickly as possible.

Its a nightmare as an instructor when the auld bastards set up shop, you have to try and steer potential students away from them. We had one up north who could clear the school in 5 mins flat. Lovely fun atmosphere to empty building and trial flight familys sitting in a corner not even talking to each other.

That said some of them are the light and soul of the place interact with the young pilots and are just are generally good eggs. I might add that type of pilot usually doesn't get on with the auld farts.

People want to enjoy every part of the experence on the ground as well as in the air.

[VOD80]

The main problem is a Gliding Club is a Club.

I realise that! What I was trying to say (very poorly) is that having a fixed price course within the existing "club" structure wouldn't tempt me. Having a more "power flying" type arrangement (even if an hour slot is too short, although I think that half a day could be too much commitment!) would be interesting, even if it were to cost more.

Perhaps it does already exist in some clubs but it doesn't seem to be widely advertised.

[BroomstickPilot]

Not much prospect I fear.

Hi ProfChrisReed,

I started my flying career with a BGA 'B' Certificate, but then moved on to power flying very many years ago.

Personally, I feel that trying to estimate a price to solo is financially hazardous. You could lose a good deal of money that way, especially if it is based on weekend flying. Selling summer gliding taster courses specifically for PPLs and NPPLs might just work.

However, you haven't made clear what your end objective is.

Are you perhaps seeking a new revenue stream for the gliding club by getting PPLs to do gliding as well as power flying? In that case I think you may be disappointed. Most PPLs and NPPLs do about 10 or 15 hrs a year, because that's all they can afford. I can't see them forking out extra for gliding.

Are you hoping to obtain an influx of experienced pilots into gliding that will quickly train up to become potential competition competitors for your club? Personally, I can't see this working either. Most PPLs and NPPLs are used to doing a flight plan and getting going. They might find a taster couse interesting, but I can't see many of them actually taking to gliding on a regular basis.

One thing you may expect is that of those who come to try gliding, there will be at least a few who will not really be interested in gliding at all and will really have their eyes on flying the tug aircraft to build hours for their CPLs. In my experience most gliding clubs already have a surfeit of budding tug pilots and don't want any more.

I would suggest that you run one or two taster courses for PPLs and NPPLs and use this as an opportunity to speak to course participants and see what motivates them.

Regards,

BP.

[cats_five]

Its somewhat cunningly hidden on their website, but Lasham seem to offer this:

Information for visiting pilots to Lasham Gliding Society

So do Booker:
Conversion Training Course

Of course getting solo isn't the same as getting Bronze/XC but it's a step on the way.

[Crash one]

Mad Jock
OK point tooken. Being an old fart myself, but quite able to mix with most I get a bit uppity at generalisations. I have on the other hand met quite a few "young farts" that stuff their opinions up yr nose & think the world was born yesterday just for their convenience.