A fraternity...
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Sorry to disagree IO, but all sexism (and racism) is negative. The instructor who falls over himself to teach a female student, irrespective of motive....that's sexist. And worse than that, the examiner who passes someone out of generosity, giving the benefit of the doubt....that's just dangerous, and it happens, again and again in many walks of life. That is just as bad as being offhand or excluding someone based on their gender or race.
I am catagorically not saying that the GA community is sexist, as a community can't be....a person can. I think some of the comments in this thread have proved that. However, a community, as a group of people, can override an individual, and I that is to be commended. If the GA community as a whole supports bringing more women into flying, then that is a great thing. If an individual is sexist, that should be highlighted. Not punished, but highlighted, and that person should be helped to understand why they were being sexist, and why its wrong.
I am catagorically not saying that the GA community is sexist, as a community can't be....a person can. I think some of the comments in this thread have proved that. However, a community, as a group of people, can override an individual, and I that is to be commended. If the GA community as a whole supports bringing more women into flying, then that is a great thing. If an individual is sexist, that should be highlighted. Not punished, but highlighted, and that person should be helped to understand why they were being sexist, and why its wrong.
Hovering AND talking
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IanPZ, another thoughtful post. 
IO540, whether or not I have children of whatever age and sex, whether or not I am married, divorced or widowed, and what, and for whom, I do for a living are extraneous to the discussion - there is no need to bring personal circumstances into it.
Yes. There are. Fact. May be illegal but it happens and it's down to the woman to bring the case for which she needs proof and proof that's hard to obtain. To believe that it still doesn't happen is naive I'm afraid.
Cheers
Whirls
PS ... Aviator is a male term ... the female equivalent is aviatrix.
Stick to pilot. 
IO540, whether or not I have children of whatever age and sex, whether or not I am married, divorced or widowed, and what, and for whom, I do for a living are extraneous to the discussion - there is no need to bring personal circumstances into it.
Do you think there are employers who will pay 20% less to a woman for the same job?
Cheers
Whirls
PS ... Aviator is a male term ... the female equivalent is aviatrix.
Stick to pilot.
Hovering AND talking
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Accordingly, the women who are around tend to get the star treatment, and get every bit of leeway there is during training.
It's an advantage which I am sure the female community would like to hang on to
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Whirls
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What exactly do you want?
Where (in GA) I have been revolving I have not seen any discrimination against women, other than the standard preferential treatment which the more attractive ones obviously get (and which would be mirrored in mens' favour if they found themselves in a predominantly female community).
Have you been refused a helicopter rental if you turned up with the right papers and the dosh?
Has a helicopter salesman refused to sell you a helicopter?
Has an instructor refused to train you because, apparently, you being a woman?
I have known some female aircraft owners and while obviously rare they seem to get on just fine.
The biggest stumbling block in GA is the usual stuff: having enough money and having enough time.
Where (in GA) I have been revolving I have not seen any discrimination against women, other than the standard preferential treatment which the more attractive ones obviously get (and which would be mirrored in mens' favour if they found themselves in a predominantly female community).
Have you been refused a helicopter rental if you turned up with the right papers and the dosh?
Has a helicopter salesman refused to sell you a helicopter?
Has an instructor refused to train you because, apparently, you being a woman?
I have known some female aircraft owners and while obviously rare they seem to get on just fine.
The biggest stumbling block in GA is the usual stuff: having enough money and having enough time.
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Fuji ... I have not said anywhere that men and women are the same; I said we should be treated the same.
Again a serious post, if you accept we are not the same, why do you want to be treated in the same way. Surely the two are mutually incompatible?
Why would you not play to each others stengths?
Hovering AND talking
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IO540 and Fuji .... may I respectfully suggest that you read PilotDAR's and IanPZ's insightful and well-balanced posts because, at this moment I canot think what else to say to get my point across.
If though, as I suspect, you are both being deliberately obtuse with the aim of furthering the Sport of Devil's Advocacy, I shall bow out now.
Cheers
Whirls
If though, as I suspect, you are both being deliberately obtuse with the aim of furthering the Sport of Devil's Advocacy, I shall bow out now.
Cheers
Whirls
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If an individual is sexist, that should be highlighted. Not punished, but highlighted, and that person should be helped to understand why they were being sexist, and why its wrong.
If I want to employ a male worker for a physically demanding job because it is more suitable for a man than a woman, am I being sexist? If a woman running a hair dressing salon wants to employ a hunk dressed as a chippindale in a bow tie and boxer shorts to sit on the reception desk because for some strange reason the women seem to like it, is she being sexist? If I advertise for a secretary and get applications from an equally qualified male and female, but I prefer to look at the woman rather than the man, am I being sexist? and if I pick the man instead, am I discriminating against the woman? Examples are endless. Get a life....
Life's too short for ironing
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PD - thank you for having the capacity not to get offended about your post being expanded to encompass another subject.
Genghis -
That reminds me of a situation I experienced here in the US a few years ago. I had flown in to an airport in Maryland with a colleague. While there a woman came and introduced herself to me, explaining she was a mechanic (engineer) at the maintenance shop and was pleased to meet a woman pilot. We chatted for a while and then she went on her way. My colleague immediately assumed that she was trying to hit on me, because she was a mechanic and therefore, automatically, must be a lesbian, which was in his eyes a very negative thing. 
Pprune Pop -
Would you have a problem with using aviation "community", which has no connotation to either gender? Or if editors were to adjust articles in aviation magazines to use "they" instead of "him"? Or, dare I say it, "her" ....
Ian - I wish I could express myself even half as well as you do
PD - you ask what can be done.
For starters, I could go on & on with any number of anecdotes about situations where I have experienced sexist behaviour, but thats life, stuff happens, and I don't see that as being constructive to the discussion.
I would hope for a more positive effect. Perhaps by bringing this discussion up, maybe it will make one or two people a little more aware of how the community could be perceived by those not already involved, how one or two small things can be changed to help improve the chances of including and encouraging more more of the general public to become involved, and to stay involved, in aviation. In the longterm this strengthens and benefits the whole of aviation.
ps - I loved the photo you posted. Youse Ontarians are one tough bunch going swimming when there's lumps of ice floating around!
Genghis -
(For that matter, my wife used to be president of the Women's Engineering Society - and if you think that women pilots have issues, try women engineers.)
Pprune Pop -
As I (and Collins) see it fraternity is a "body of people united in aims and interests" a fraternity, a brotherhood, a sisterhood but a group of people sharing a common interest. Bringing sexist connotations into it is my view unfair and should have been said between bitten lips
Ian - I wish I could express myself even half as well as you do
PD - you ask what can be done.
For starters, I could go on & on with any number of anecdotes about situations where I have experienced sexist behaviour, but thats life, stuff happens, and I don't see that as being constructive to the discussion.
I would hope for a more positive effect. Perhaps by bringing this discussion up, maybe it will make one or two people a little more aware of how the community could be perceived by those not already involved, how one or two small things can be changed to help improve the chances of including and encouraging more more of the general public to become involved, and to stay involved, in aviation. In the longterm this strengthens and benefits the whole of aviation.
ps - I loved the photo you posted. Youse Ontarians are one tough bunch going swimming when there's lumps of ice floating around!
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In my first post here, I issued a challenge, now I know how to refine it to be meaningful, in the context of this discussion....
For many years, I attended a pilot friend's summer farm BBQ. I would take every kid who wanted to go for a circuit. It sometimes took hours, there were dozens of kids. After many years of doing this, a very pleasant teenaged girl came up and introduced herself as Laura. She explained that I had taken her years earlier. She was so intrigued with flying, she joined Air Cadets, earned a glider license by scolarship, then a private powered license by scolarship. She must have really worked hard to do that! I took her flying a few more times, and taught her some advanced flying. I heard she went on to professional flying, though have lost track of her.
The challenge PPRuNers is now that we must each do something within our capacity, to inspire/enable a young women to fly. To be non-sexist, this should obviously be balanced with a similar effort toward young men ('cause it would not be right to discrimiate against them!), but we'll provide a special opportunity to the women.
It's our industry, and it needs growing. It would not be right to miss the opportunity to inspire women to take their place in it....
For many years, I attended a pilot friend's summer farm BBQ. I would take every kid who wanted to go for a circuit. It sometimes took hours, there were dozens of kids. After many years of doing this, a very pleasant teenaged girl came up and introduced herself as Laura. She explained that I had taken her years earlier. She was so intrigued with flying, she joined Air Cadets, earned a glider license by scolarship, then a private powered license by scolarship. She must have really worked hard to do that! I took her flying a few more times, and taught her some advanced flying. I heard she went on to professional flying, though have lost track of her.
The challenge PPRuNers is now that we must each do something within our capacity, to inspire/enable a young women to fly. To be non-sexist, this should obviously be balanced with a similar effort toward young men ('cause it would not be right to discrimiate against them!), but we'll provide a special opportunity to the women.
It's our industry, and it needs growing. It would not be right to miss the opportunity to inspire women to take their place in it....
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Would you have a problem with using aviation "community"?
PPRuNe Pop hit the nail on the head. A lot of gender-specific language has been with us since ever, it's practical and does not imply gender-based discrimination. To take offence at it is like thinking that the calendar we use is religiously discriminatory because it starts from the birth of Jesus. I'm an atheist, should I be offended?
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Whirls
In all seriousness I am not sure what your point is.
You accept we are different and you seem to accept that we shouldnt be treated the same.
It seems to me that in the areas we are the same you object to discrimination. A girl can be a pilot just as well as a bloke, in some situations she will make a better pilot than a bloke. Discriminations in these circumstances is born out of ignorance, like any other discrimination. What's to not understand?
Genuinely curious?
at this moment I canot think what else to say to get my point across.
You accept we are different and you seem to accept that we shouldnt be treated the same.
It seems to me that in the areas we are the same you object to discrimination. A girl can be a pilot just as well as a bloke, in some situations she will make a better pilot than a bloke. Discriminations in these circumstances is born out of ignorance, like any other discrimination. What's to not understand?
Genuinely curious?
Hovering AND talking
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and you seem to accept that we shouldnt be treated the same.
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Whirls
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It seems to me that in the areas we are the same you object to discrimination. A girl can be a pilot just as well as a bloke, in some situations she will make a better pilot than a bloke. Discriminations in these circumstances is born out of ignorance, like any other discrimination. What's to not understand?
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Where did I say that? 
Sorry, I assumed, I have put the ass before me.
It does beg the question; dont you?
You girls are far better at dealing with G than us blokes, so would you agree you girls have the edge in high G situations?
Us blokes have the edge when it comes to speed, would you want to run in the same race with Bolt?
You girls are faaaar better than us blokes at working out whats going on in the oppositons minds (after all you have been perfecting social skills for a million years) I would rather have you on my side than another bloke. I ask my PA every time whether we should take some one on, she has almost a 100% record, against mine that is less than 50:50.
Hovering AND talking
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No ... I'll say it again. I don't think men and women should be treated differently; both should be treated with respect and courtesy and both sexes should be free from being stereotyped.
Cheers
Whirls
Cheers
Whirls
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No ... I'll say it again. I don't think men and women should be treated differently; both should be treated with respect and courtesy and both sexes should be free from being stereotyped.
Now I am confused.
You agree we are different.
Everyone, male or female, black or white, disabled or able should be treated with respect and courtesy.
.. but it doesnt mean we arent each different, does it?
Embrace the differences, play to your strenghts.
What is wrong with that?
Hovering AND talking
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Embrace the differences, play to your strenghts.
What is wrong with that?
What is wrong with that?
Cheers
Whirls
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It's obvious, surely.
A woman can fly and talk at the same time. No man can do that. He has to first write down the stuff he has to read. You yourself claim to be capable of "Hovering AND talking".
A woman can fly and talk at the same time. No man can do that. He has to first write down the stuff he has to read. You yourself claim to be capable of "Hovering AND talking".
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You yourself claim to be capable of "Hovering AND talking".