A fraternity...
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What a nice post Pilot DAR.
If the pprune member who was so kind to you is a Private Flying poster, then please name them (and embarrass them in a nice way) so that they can get the little bit of the credit that they deserve
So many of the conversations here are argumentive in nature, that it's good to be reminded that most people are pretty desent when you meet them in person
If the pprune member who was so kind to you is a Private Flying poster, then please name them (and embarrass them in a nice way) so that they can get the little bit of the credit that they deserve
So many of the conversations here are argumentive in nature, that it's good to be reminded that most people are pretty desent when you meet them in person
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Originally Posted by IO540
I've never seen that anywhere.
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Whirls
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Girls, come on, you may well have a point, BUT the OP has made it absolutely clear that his intentions were NOT as you suggest. By all means start a thread on sex discrimination in private flying (the banter could well be entertaining) but it seems a shame to detract from the OP.
Cheers.
Cheers.
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then please name them (and embarrass them in a nice way) so that they can get the little bit of the credit that they deserve
Similarly, I feel no unkindness from the remarks made by the women. It is a leftover from our society's past that these literary pitfalls exist. I would hardly be living the way I propose we all do, if I took offense, or promoted it. I expect that if some men wish to be seen as gender biased, they can easily do that. Otherwise I hope the women will assume that no bias was intended.
And to put my money where my mouth is, It was an extremely compotent female flying instructor who did my commercial pilot training, and another very experienced female fire patrol pilot who did type training for me, and flew as safety pilot for my Caravan flight testing last year. I remain to this day, very inspired by the female pilots who ferried all types of aircraft during WW2. I came to know one, and I am the wiser for it.
I appreciate Fuji's comment. If there is to be a thread of gender descrimination, I will surely participate....
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Pilot DAR & I have communicated privately in the past, and he has been very helpful to me too. As he recognised, this wasn't a dig at him directly. It was unforunate that such as nice post as he made originally used the term "fraternity", and someone else used "band of brothers" so adding to the point I brought up.
I do not believe in political correctness just for the sake of it. Having said that, I am noticing more & more that aviation groups, forums and organisations talk the talk about bringing in more girls & women, but don't walk the walk when it comes to small details. Just reading AOPA's recent magazine where they have an article discussing why so few of the world's pilots are women, and what can be done to change that. In the next article there's references to a fraternity (brotherhood), pilots being referred to as "he", rather than "they" etc, etc. At a recent EAA event, the CEO referred to the aviation "fraternity" (I guess he doesn't understand his Latin either ). Yet EAA runs the "Women Soar" program to try and encourage more women into aviation.
These are only tiny aspects to the big picture of encouraging more girls to become involved in aviation, but I believe they have the potential to make a difference. If a young girl is reading about aviation that always has a male context, will their instant mental image of the situation referenced be of a mixed gender group, or of a group of men? Is that more likely to make them feel it is a community where they could join in? Or does it come across that aviation is just populated by men?
I don't believe in only encouraging girls to get involved in aviation, I believe everyone should be encouraged, regardless of gender, race, colour or creed. The more people who become interested, and stay interested in aviation, the better it is for the aviation community (not sorority, not fraternity
- I guess something from the one year of Latin I did at school must have stuck) as a whole. So the more women and girls who feel aviation is a place they would be included, so much the better.
No more soapbox for today. Sorry PD, I didn't mean to mess up your thread
I do not believe in political correctness just for the sake of it. Having said that, I am noticing more & more that aviation groups, forums and organisations talk the talk about bringing in more girls & women, but don't walk the walk when it comes to small details. Just reading AOPA's recent magazine where they have an article discussing why so few of the world's pilots are women, and what can be done to change that. In the next article there's references to a fraternity (brotherhood), pilots being referred to as "he", rather than "they" etc, etc. At a recent EAA event, the CEO referred to the aviation "fraternity" (I guess he doesn't understand his Latin either
). Yet EAA runs the "Women Soar" program to try and encourage more women into aviation. These are only tiny aspects to the big picture of encouraging more girls to become involved in aviation, but I believe they have the potential to make a difference. If a young girl is reading about aviation that always has a male context, will their instant mental image of the situation referenced be of a mixed gender group, or of a group of men? Is that more likely to make them feel it is a community where they could join in? Or does it come across that aviation is just populated by men?
I don't believe in only encouraging girls to get involved in aviation, I believe everyone should be encouraged, regardless of gender, race, colour or creed. The more people who become interested, and stay interested in aviation, the better it is for the aviation community (not sorority, not fraternity
- I guess something from the one year of Latin I did at school must have stuck) as a whole. So the more women and girls who feel aviation is a place they would be included, so much the better. No more soapbox for today. Sorry PD, I didn't mean to mess up your thread
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Sorry PD, I didn't mean to mess up your thread 
So what could the "brothers" in this "fraterinty" do to be more obviously gender sensative or neutral? Beyond avoiding sexist remarks, and taking care with He/She-His/Hers etc. and avoiding gender biased terms (once we realize they are!) what else is to be done?
The spirit of gender equality seems to be apparent in the group, what's a "guy" to do? (not trying to put you on the spot, just wondering where to go from here, so please step within range of your soapbox!).
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While I can understand the "harshness" of language terms for some members of the flying community, when I write on a flying forum, no matter the gender term used, I intend "pilot" and a pilot for me is a pilot, full stop.
Gender, race, and other differences have no value in the cockpit.
Gender, race, and other differences have no value in the cockpit.
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Beyond avoiding sexist remarks
Seriously, the problem lies in assumptions; makes an ASS of U and ME.
Took a non-aviating male friend flying and landed at a small airfield somewhere in the East of England for the £10 bacon sarnie. My friend was greated by fellow aviators wanting to know about learning to fly helicopters. He replied by suggesting that the pilot would be the best person to ask. If this was a one-off, I wouldn't mind but it happens frequently along with questions like, "what does my husband think of me flying?".
Unfortunately gentlemen, what some of you see as harmless banter is actually old, tired, outdated "humour" that went out of fashion at the same time as "Love They Neighbour" and Bernard Manning. You know, the jokes about map-reading and reverse parking?
I would dearly love to think we are all one in this coterie (like it?? - good word) but until some of this nonsense stops, a small faction of the GA community will feel alienated. Intelligent and witty banter is great and I'll give as good as I get, but hackneyed cliches with an underlying sense of belief in them have no place in a truly a-sexual environment.
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Whirls
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The odd thing is i often wish i was a girl if that is the way it works.
I would be very happy to not answer the questions and smile sweetly.
Oh well i guess the grass is always greener.
(only adding to the debate as the op doesnt mind the thread drift).
I would be very happy to not answer the questions and smile sweetly.
Oh well i guess the grass is always greener.
(only adding to the debate as the op doesnt mind the thread drift).
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I cannot believe that Pilot-DARs most admirable thread has been hijacked in this way, after so many other examples of somebody here and elsewhere using "he" (or similar) in a posting.
Why don't these two women lobby Pprune management to start a new women-only forum if they feel so strongly about trivia like grammar. In the English language, the masculine includes the feminine and it has done so for centuries.
Only those with well balanced personalities: a chip on each shoulder.
Why don't these two women lobby Pprune management to start a new women-only forum if they feel so strongly about trivia like grammar. In the English language, the masculine includes the feminine and it has done so for centuries.
a small faction of the GA community will feel alienated
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I would be very happy to not answer the questions and smile sweetly.
It's not a question of the grass being greener as, oddly, I have no desire to be male; it's a question of being taking seriously. A message which still isn't getting through.
Why don't these two women lobby PPRuNe management to start a new women-only forum if they feel so strongly about trivia like grammar. In the English language, the masculine includes the feminine and it has done so for centuries.
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Whirls
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Whirls, your points are well made. I have witnessed such poor behaviour myself, and intervened a few times. So what would you see done if you could infulence the sexists? What would you want to think your male PPRuNe colleages would do to quell sexism in aviation, if they felt they had an opportunity?
All the good will misses the mark, if the intended recipients think it is mis directed.
As a person who has flown since I was 15 years old, I can appreciate what you're saying just a little, as I was the victim of the "little kid" sydrome for a while. It took a long time to be taken seriously.
All the good will misses the mark, if the intended recipients think it is mis directed.
As a person who has flown since I was 15 years old, I can appreciate what you're saying just a little, as I was the victim of the "little kid" sydrome for a while. It took a long time to be taken seriously.
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Pilot DAR, you ask some good, but not-easy-to-answer questions. I don't know. It'll be a slow process for any minority to gain true acceptance into any coterie (I SO like that word ).
Maybe chaps, if you see a chap and a chapess disembark from an aircraft and you want to talk to the pilot about said aircraft, why not use the opening gambit of, "Hi, which one of you is the expert on this xxxx aircraft"? If it's both of them, then both he and she will say, "Me"; otherwise, you'll get your answer.
Cheers
Whirls
).Maybe chaps, if you see a chap and a chapess disembark from an aircraft and you want to talk to the pilot about said aircraft, why not use the opening gambit of, "Hi, which one of you is the expert on this xxxx aircraft"? If it's both of them, then both he and she will say, "Me"; otherwise, you'll get your answer.
Cheers
Whirls
And how is this "coterie" to be understood?
Annoyance could have been simply avoided by mentioning a "family" rather than a "brotherhood". "Guild" could have done too, but has some implication of professionalism.
Back to the original topic: yes, the bond is there. Has been equal to me with (the few) women in the club. And I do take it for no more than an unhappy coincidence that the one student pilot in the club who is never going to make it is female. Actually I only made it very marginally myself, and only after exhaustive application of patience and budget.
The bond is there. The very few that I found standing out from it were either medium-hours pilots wanting to show off, or a very few that were "incontournable" and wanted me to feel it. Seems to occur in some newly created instructors, and generally passes naturally, without doing great harm except to their own pride.
Of course it must be entirely by coincidence that I never observed either kind of behaviour in any female.
PS "gambit" is an unusual word too, but you might know it from studying/playing chess - another world where woman are rare, and for no apparent reason either.
post-edited PPSS : Coterie - Wikipédia has some enlightenment, but not very recommendable, it seems to encompass both vices I mentioned.
Annoyance could have been simply avoided by mentioning a "family" rather than a "brotherhood". "Guild" could have done too, but has some implication of professionalism.
Back to the original topic: yes, the bond is there. Has been equal to me with (the few) women in the club. And I do take it for no more than an unhappy coincidence that the one student pilot in the club who is never going to make it is female. Actually I only made it very marginally myself, and only after exhaustive application of patience and budget.
The bond is there. The very few that I found standing out from it were either medium-hours pilots wanting to show off, or a very few that were "incontournable" and wanted me to feel it. Seems to occur in some newly created instructors, and generally passes naturally, without doing great harm except to their own pride.
Of course it must be entirely by coincidence that I never observed either kind of behaviour in any female.
PS "gambit" is an unusual word too, but you might know it from studying/playing chess - another world where woman are rare, and for no apparent reason either.
post-edited PPSS : Coterie - Wikipédia has some enlightenment, but not very recommendable, it seems to encompass both vices I mentioned.
Last edited by Jan Olieslagers; 28th May 2011 at 22:52.
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I think a woman's place is in the home, cooking my tea and cleaning up after me. They shouldn't bother their pretty little heads about aeroplanes and things they can't possibly be expected to understand.
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hackneyed cliches with an underlying sense of belief in them have no place in a truly a-sexual environment.
P.S. Mods, this discussion really belongs to a separate thread: why not spin it off from say post #30?