A fraternity...
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Jan ... not quite sure what point you're trying make with the choice of words used but ...
coterie noun 1. a group of people who associate closely.
2. an exclusive group; clique
I won't mention prairie dogs .....
Gambit ... indicative of my classical upbringing, I'm afraid .... I don't play chess ... but don't challenge me to backgammon unless your pockets are deep.
Cheers
Whirls
coterie noun 1. a group of people who associate closely.
2. an exclusive group; clique
I won't mention prairie dogs .....
Gambit ... indicative of my classical upbringing, I'm afraid .... I don't play chess ... but don't challenge me to backgammon unless your pockets are deep.
Cheers
Whirls
On Pilot_DAR's point, I agree utterly. I have never kept track of the countless small kindnesses that have been done for me over the years as a pilot: loans of equipment, ground-engineers who have sorted out some problem away from home and declined any payment, lifts to local hotels or other services when I've been stranded. All purely because in aviation we have a fraternity/sorority where we all as a matter of course help each other out. Some of those favours have definitely come from women as well as men.
On Fernytickles' and Whirlygig's ongoing rant - I understand and sympathise - but this does go both ways. One of my closest friends is a male ward sister in the NHS, whilst one of my hobbies is cooking. Try talking as a younger male to any unrelated female over 50 about cooking and see how far the conversation gets before they start looking at you with grave suspicion - not to mention the difficulties of explaining that Sister is called Pete ! (For that matter, my wife used to be president of the Women's Engineering Society - and if you think that women pilots have issues, try women engineers.) At the same time, terminology that is historically single-gender does need to make do for this more egalitarian age - so we have "madam chairman", "Sister Peter", men and women within a fraternity of pilots, and so on - live with it; there are bigger issues to worry about (like genuine discrimination, which certainly exists).
G
On Fernytickles' and Whirlygig's ongoing rant - I understand and sympathise - but this does go both ways. One of my closest friends is a male ward sister in the NHS, whilst one of my hobbies is cooking. Try talking as a younger male to any unrelated female over 50 about cooking and see how far the conversation gets before they start looking at you with grave suspicion - not to mention the difficulties of explaining that Sister is called Pete ! (For that matter, my wife used to be president of the Women's Engineering Society - and if you think that women pilots have issues, try women engineers.) At the same time, terminology that is historically single-gender does need to make do for this more egalitarian age - so we have "madam chairman", "Sister Peter", men and women within a fraternity of pilots, and so on - live with it; there are bigger issues to worry about (like genuine discrimination, which certainly exists).
G
Whirls, I was not trying to make any kind of point. I am fascinated by the subtleties of languages and, as a foreigner, saw an opportunity for learning a bit of English. Which you have duly filled, to my everlasting gratitude.
@Genghis: sorry, I can never live with "madam chairman", but could happily stomach "lady chairwoman". What need to complicate? As for "Sister Peter", that could get one in hospital FAST, round here. Or even in prison. Had some really bad stories over here, recently.
On a complete sidenote: local courtesy has always had us calling lawyers "Meester", obviously related to "Master" and "Mister". When women came into the legal profession, and today they are very prominent in it here, some insisted to be adressed as "Meester" too, but I could never get myself round to it. Unfortunately, the proper female form "Meesteres" ("Mistress", more or less) would have an unmistakeable and very unfortunate sexual connotation, so it is regrettably out of the way. My answer is that in the 21th century they can simply be called "Sir" and "Lady", in Dutch "Meneer" and "Mevrouw".
The times have indeed been changing.
@Genghis: sorry, I can never live with "madam chairman", but could happily stomach "lady chairwoman". What need to complicate? As for "Sister Peter", that could get one in hospital FAST, round here. Or even in prison. Had some really bad stories over here, recently.
On a complete sidenote: local courtesy has always had us calling lawyers "Meester", obviously related to "Master" and "Mister". When women came into the legal profession, and today they are very prominent in it here, some insisted to be adressed as "Meester" too, but I could never get myself round to it. Unfortunately, the proper female form "Meesteres" ("Mistress", more or less) would have an unmistakeable and very unfortunate sexual connotation, so it is regrettably out of the way. My answer is that in the 21th century they can simply be called "Sir" and "Lady", in Dutch "Meneer" and "Mevrouw".
The times have indeed been changing.
Hovering AND talking
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Genghis... valid points all ....
I have a real aversion to terms such a "Chairwoman" or "Chairperson" or God forbid, the BBC predaliction for "Chair" like someone is a piece of Chippendale ..... It's ChairMAN .. as in huMAN ....
All I ask for is to be treated as an equal intellectually and not to be tarred with the same brush that some gentlemen seem to think is a female stereotype.
Jan, you see that linguistic minefield over there? Don't step on it ... oh you have.
No worries, I get your point.
Cheers
Whirls
G,...You can cook for me any day ...
I have a real aversion to terms such a "Chairwoman" or "Chairperson" or God forbid, the BBC predaliction for "Chair" like someone is a piece of Chippendale ..... It's ChairMAN .. as in huMAN ....
All I ask for is to be treated as an equal intellectually and not to be tarred with the same brush that some gentlemen seem to think is a female stereotype.
Jan, you see that linguistic minefield over there? Don't step on it ... oh you have.
No worries, I get your point.Cheers
Whirls
G,...You can cook for me any day ...
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I have a real aversion to terms such a "Chairwoman" or "Chairperson" or God forbid, the BBC predaliction for "Chair" like someone is a piece of Chippendale ..... It's ChairMAN .. as in huMAN ....
Have you got teenage sons at school, by any chance? And see how many more activities are laid on for the girls? Life is much harder for boys at that age.
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Originally Posted by IO
So, you want to pick the bits of "equality" which you like and moan about the others.
Not all women are the same and some aspects of the "feminist" movement make me want to cringe. However, from an aviation point-of-view, all I ask is to be treated in the same way as any other pilot.
Originally Posted by Fuji
But women arent equal .. .. .. You cant change millions of years of evoluion in the blink of an eye.
Cheers
Whirls
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P.S. Mods, this discussion really belongs to a separate thread: why not spin it off from say post #30?
and you want to talk to the pilot about said aircraft, why not use the opening gambit of, "Hi, which one of you is the expert on this xxxx aircraft"?
Perhpas you would introduce another approach Whirls...
Another industry, in which I have been well immersed for twenty years, can also be very sexist - Firefighter.
It can be difficult for women to find their footing in this "guild". When I decided to introduce my daughter (then 18) to what we did - sort of "take your kid to work day", some prebriefing seemed appropriate. I told her to always show respect those more experienced than she, treat every person exactly as she would want to be treated, and to never ever not step in to pull her share when it was appropriate. A week later she was right beside me, lifting a leg to pull a dead guy out of his crunched car. She was hired as our fourth volunteer firefighter out of 55 at the time. Six years on, she is more formally trained than I, and takes on most of the responsibility for a lot of our training. She is one of 8 females out of 60 of us, and our Fire department has the highest percentage of females known in Ontario. I have never had to rise to her defense, and never known her to have been poorly or sexist treated. Using the term "guys" in its apparent non-gender specific context, she's just one of them...
And just for a little colour in this thread, here we are during training...
But I drift the drift....
I agree that there are females who are unfairly the vicitms of gender descrimination in aviation, as in just about every other aspect of life. But, when well meaning males make the extra effort toward being inclusive to females, it can backfire with undertones of that male having other motives, it is a very fine line. If females wish to be treated equally, they will serve themselves well by accepting what goes by them in social circles as equally as they can tolerate. It's fair to indicate their desire to not be the intended victims of descimination, but I think it unfair, and divisive for them to catch every little slip, and spotlight it. Some things have to be left to slide, or our society will be forever stumbling over policial correctness, and never get anything done. I happily observe now in the Fire Department, the females in the group make remarks which the men are best to let slide, and usually we do!
I'm sure that if males can find a way (exclusive of identifying "experts") of being gender inclusive, they generally would. When a few sexists do not, then some male to male mentoring might be helpful, and I'm happy to do my part. But females share responsibility for paving this path forward too...
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Originally Posted by Fuji
But women arent equal .. .. .. You cant change millions of years of evoluion in the blink of an eye.
Are you sure?
Think for a moment about some of the gender diffrences that come about from the evolution of our species - do you really believe there are no differences?
and no, this isnt a windup, but a factual observation.
But women arent equal .. .. .. You cant change millions of years of evoluion in the blink of an eye.
I rest my case.
Think for a moment about some of the gender diffrences that come about from the evolution of our species - do you really believe there are no differences?
and no, this isnt a windup, but a factual observation.
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PIlotDAR ... well said. Funnily enough, I have not been on the receiving end of any sexism in the rotary coterie (alliteration as well 
); it's been from the fixed wing world. My observation only.
Fuji ... I have not said anywhere that men and women are the same; I said we should be treated the same.
Cheers
Whirls
); it's been from the fixed wing world. My observation only.Fuji ... I have not said anywhere that men and women are the same; I said we should be treated the same.
Cheers
Whirls
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it's been from the fixed wing world
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When Pilot DAR made his post I am sure that he had no intention of offending anyone, least of the ladies in PF.
As I (and Collins) see it fraternity is a "body of people united in aims and interests" a fraternity, a brotherhood, a sisterhood but a group of people sharing a common interest. Bringing sexist connotations into it is my view unfair and should have been said between bitten lips.
If anyone needs to make it sexist then I suggest you spilit into two groups. Males and females. Then what will you achive? Zilch, nada. You wanna know why? Because you will STILL be two bodies united in aims and interests.
Is that enough to stop this nonsense?
Flying is a joint pastime or job. It was never always thus but that is because of the French. Get on and enjoy.
As for meeting, that is easy. Just arrange it with a suggestion and see how far it goes.
PPP
As I (and Collins) see it fraternity is a "body of people united in aims and interests" a fraternity, a brotherhood, a sisterhood but a group of people sharing a common interest. Bringing sexist connotations into it is my view unfair and should have been said between bitten lips.
If anyone needs to make it sexist then I suggest you spilit into two groups. Males and females. Then what will you achive? Zilch, nada. You wanna know why? Because you will STILL be two bodies united in aims and interests.
Is that enough to stop this nonsense?
Flying is a joint pastime or job. It was never always thus but that is because of the French. Get on and enjoy.
As for meeting, that is easy. Just arrange it with a suggestion and see how far it goes.
PPP
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Whirls do you mean you should be treated the same in all circumstances or just those that suit? You see I am from an age where we respected the opposite sex for the differences and teated each accordingly. By and large there was no discrimination in any sphere where male and female were doing equal tasks or equally well at anything. But it seems to me this being treated equally does not seem to be universal, for example when a female worker falls pregnant and then has time off for birthing et al the poor old employer has to pick up a huge tab for that little excercise and on top of that has to keep the job open for a long period. That does not seem equal so in the interests of you showing how "the same" you are would you only accept the "benefits" that are applicable to your male colleagues.
Just wondering!
Just wondering!
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I can't agree with the foregoing. A child is raised by a community as a whole thus the community should step up as a whole to offer support for it's care during the first months. To me, the fact that it is a female who is typically central to that care is not relevent. If a male were taking this responsibilty, I would support that equally. Our society will tolerate "time off" for recovery of injuries sustained during some "elective" activities by either gender, so as a female needs some time to recover after child birth, we've already established the legitimacy of that!
My wife has ribbed me in the past, that "I do not cook" (well the kids never starved), and would eat out too often. I should cook more at home. I pointed out that she took her car to have the oil changed, or have the snow tires put on too often, and could do those things at home. She took my point.
Men and women are different, but still equal....
My wife has ribbed me in the past, that "I do not cook" (well the kids never starved), and would eat out too often. I should cook more at home. I pointed out that she took her car to have the oil changed, or have the snow tires put on too often, and could do those things at home. She took my point.
Men and women are different, but still equal....
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WorkingHard ...in the UK, women's salaries, for comparable jobs, are currently 20% less than those of men.
I have no desire to get into any political treatise as my comments were solely directed at (thankfully a minority) a group of male pilots who still think women should be chained to the kitchen sink.
Cheers
Whirls
I have no desire to get into any political treatise as my comments were solely directed at (thankfully a minority) a group of male pilots who still think women should be chained to the kitchen sink.
Cheers
Whirls
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Good God, this is a interesting LITTLE discussion on PPRUNE.
A Sunday morning and Bank Holiday weekend.
The subject matter is vast and as always complicated. The issue is that ALL individuals should be treated with respect. It rarely appears to be the case. Men are generally the culprits, the prat who makes the 'golf club' joke about another guy losing his hair, the idiot who makes the sexist comment about a female, the clown who thinks he is mister Billy Big Bollocks
Women rarely make these stupid comments, and when they attempt to be treated ''equally'' and with ''respect'', off starts another rant about equality, and being 'together'. - From the men.
An observation though, the majority of women appear to want equality only when it suits them, i.e take out the 'rough' bits.
A Sunday morning and Bank Holiday weekend.
The subject matter is vast and as always complicated. The issue is that ALL individuals should be treated with respect. It rarely appears to be the case. Men are generally the culprits, the prat who makes the 'golf club' joke about another guy losing his hair, the idiot who makes the sexist comment about a female, the clown who thinks he is mister Billy Big Bollocks
Women rarely make these stupid comments, and when they attempt to be treated ''equally'' and with ''respect'', off starts another rant about equality, and being 'together'. - From the men.
An observation though, the majority of women appear to want equality only when it suits them, i.e take out the 'rough' bits.
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in the UK, women's salaries, for comparable jobs, are currently 20% less than those of men.
Do you think there are employers who will pay 20% less to a woman for the same job?
That's been illegal for more or less as long as I've been in business
Any employer trying that one would be before a tribunal within a day of "her" walking out of the door after the job interview.
The reason why women earn less is because women are, statistically very significantly, attracted to more "casual" jobs, which obviously happen to be lower paid. I don't suppose you have kids, but if you did you would understand one of the reasons for this. Another reason for it is that, again statistically significantly, whereas a man tends to aim to have some kind of life-long career, a woman tends to seek life-long financial security in a marriage. Again I don't suppose that applies to you, as a career corporate accountant.
Obviously society is changing but the stats remain.
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I've been very hesitant to join in this discussion, but given PiolotDAR's encouragement, I think I will.
Firstly, I'd like to say I feel Whirlygig and Ferny were prefectly within their rights to raise this. Whilst the intention of the post was not to be sexist, "fraternity" does show the implicit sexism in the langauage. As someone (IO?) pointed out, masculine encompasses feminine an many languages, and I wonder why that is?!
Also, huge credit to PilotDAR. There seem to be a lot of people who get very defensive when faced with questions of sexism, racism, etc, another group who make glib jokes to prove they meant no harm (those jokes stem from a sexist or racist culture), and very few who have the integrity to apologise and make it clear what they had meant in the first place. I take my hat off to you.
But as for the real issue, in my mind, its the difficulty of the word equality. Fuji's point has validity, but not just relating to men and women. We are not all equal, and we are all different. Whether it's because one person can give birth, or another can carry heavier loads, or a third can do unimaginably complicated maths easily (engineers?), the thing is that we rarely celebrate the differences, and treat each other with respect. I am sure we have all experienced that exculsivity from others in our pasts, and if we haven't, then I suspect that is more because we are being exclusive to others, rather than it not existing.
And that was the point of PilotDARs post, I think. The inclusive nature of the .... aviator (phew, that was hard to find a gender neutral word....goes to show!).
PD asked Whirly what to do, what could make a difference. Well, I've been asked the same from a racist perspective, and I try and say the following.
If you are the receiver of racism/sexism etc, politely pick up the point and make sure the person who was being unmindful realises it.
If you are the source of the racist/sexist statement, however unwittingly, then accept that what you said may have been inconsiderate or ill-judged, rephrase the statement, and don't try to defend it. (As far as I can see, that's exactly what PilotDAR did).
We aren't going to obliterate centuries (millenia) of habit in a blink of an eye, but if we start by accepting it exists, may offend, and can be corrected, that's a good place. As whirly said, don't just make assumptions like the man would obviously be the pilot...and if you do and it turns out you were wrong....don't resort to sexist jokes to try and "make it okay". Just say sorry, and move on.
Now....all of you can shout at me :-)
IPZ
Firstly, I'd like to say I feel Whirlygig and Ferny were prefectly within their rights to raise this. Whilst the intention of the post was not to be sexist, "fraternity" does show the implicit sexism in the langauage. As someone (IO?) pointed out, masculine encompasses feminine an many languages, and I wonder why that is?!
Also, huge credit to PilotDAR. There seem to be a lot of people who get very defensive when faced with questions of sexism, racism, etc, another group who make glib jokes to prove they meant no harm (those jokes stem from a sexist or racist culture), and very few who have the integrity to apologise and make it clear what they had meant in the first place. I take my hat off to you.
But as for the real issue, in my mind, its the difficulty of the word equality. Fuji's point has validity, but not just relating to men and women. We are not all equal, and we are all different. Whether it's because one person can give birth, or another can carry heavier loads, or a third can do unimaginably complicated maths easily (engineers?), the thing is that we rarely celebrate the differences, and treat each other with respect. I am sure we have all experienced that exculsivity from others in our pasts, and if we haven't, then I suspect that is more because we are being exclusive to others, rather than it not existing.
And that was the point of PilotDARs post, I think. The inclusive nature of the .... aviator (phew, that was hard to find a gender neutral word....goes to show!).
PD asked Whirly what to do, what could make a difference. Well, I've been asked the same from a racist perspective, and I try and say the following.
If you are the receiver of racism/sexism etc, politely pick up the point and make sure the person who was being unmindful realises it.
If you are the source of the racist/sexist statement, however unwittingly, then accept that what you said may have been inconsiderate or ill-judged, rephrase the statement, and don't try to defend it. (As far as I can see, that's exactly what PilotDAR did).
We aren't going to obliterate centuries (millenia) of habit in a blink of an eye, but if we start by accepting it exists, may offend, and can be corrected, that's a good place. As whirly said, don't just make assumptions like the man would obviously be the pilot...and if you do and it turns out you were wrong....don't resort to sexist jokes to try and "make it okay". Just say sorry, and move on.
Now....all of you can shout at me :-)
IPZ
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I think there is very little sexism that is negative to women, in GA.
There are very few women flying GA. Accordingly, the women who are around tend to get the star treatment, and get every bit of leeway there is during training.
Most instructors fall over themselves to instruct a female student. One could argue they have an ulterior motive but so what? It's an advantage which I am sure the female community would like to hang on to
There are very few women flying GA. Accordingly, the women who are around tend to get the star treatment, and get every bit of leeway there is during training.
Most instructors fall over themselves to instruct a female student. One could argue they have an ulterior motive but so what? It's an advantage which I am sure the female community would like to hang on to
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I think there is very little sexism that is negative to women, in GA.
There are very few women flying GA. Accordingly, the women who are around tend to get the star treatment, and get every bit of leeway there is during training.
Most instructors fall over themselves to instruct a female student. One could argue they have an ulterior motive but so what? It's an advantage which I am sure the female community would like to hang on to
There are very few women flying GA. Accordingly, the women who are around tend to get the star treatment, and get every bit of leeway there is during training.
Most instructors fall over themselves to instruct a female student. One could argue they have an ulterior motive but so what? It's an advantage which I am sure the female community would like to hang on to
