Can too much "knowledge" hurt during PPL training?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
Posts: 130
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can too much "knowledge" hurt during PPL training?
I am 33 years old, and have been wanting to fly since I was a teenager. Since then, I have spent countless hours researching flying, watching videos of people flying, reading about almost every aspect of flying there is, and yes, spending time flight 'sim'ing on my PC with Microsoft Flight Simulator (I started out with the original DOS version and currently have FSX.
I am on the verge of starting actual, real world PPL training.
I ponder whether what I already know (or *think* I know) will help or hinder my actual PPL training. The last thing I want to do is act like a know-it-all punk student and get off on the wrong foot with my instructor. I imagine that instructors absolutely HATE training another dreaded flight 'simmer. I also worry that what I (think I) know could actually get me killed or hurt or just make me a bad pilot. In 2003 I went on an explorer flight and within seconds realized that the real thing is absolutely, positively NOTHING like the sim...any sim, be it x-plane, FSX, or even a full-blown full motion sim. Being in 3 dimensions as opposed to two and being buffeted around and experiencing g-forces and feedback just doesn't happen on a home PC. On my PC, I can fly almost any aircraft and look like a pro. I realize that in the real world, I am nothing.
I guess the fact that I am aware of this and even talking about it up front is a good thing...better than going in naive. But I'm still afraid that things I've "learned" are going to only work against me.
Has anybody on this forum "transitioned" from being an "on-paper", "PC" pilot to the real thing and had major growing pains along the way?
I am really concerned that I will, even sub-subconsciously, think that I know everything the instructor tells me and come off as not taking him/her seriously...or for example come off as thinking I'm way ahead of my time, knowing for example what all the instruments are before he tells me...and this will just royally piss him off and put a bad taste in his mouth.
Maybe I am worrying too much about this?
I have thought about playing dumb...keeping my knowledge to myself and letting the instructor think he's telling me everything for the first time, perhaps this is the best "angle of attack", pun intended.
Granted, when I speak of things he might tell me that I already know, I do realize that probably 95% of what he tells me I will NOT already know...just obsessing over that 5% I guess.
Sorry for such a rambling post. I imagine this one will make for some good convo!
I am on the verge of starting actual, real world PPL training.
I ponder whether what I already know (or *think* I know) will help or hinder my actual PPL training. The last thing I want to do is act like a know-it-all punk student and get off on the wrong foot with my instructor. I imagine that instructors absolutely HATE training another dreaded flight 'simmer. I also worry that what I (think I) know could actually get me killed or hurt or just make me a bad pilot. In 2003 I went on an explorer flight and within seconds realized that the real thing is absolutely, positively NOTHING like the sim...any sim, be it x-plane, FSX, or even a full-blown full motion sim. Being in 3 dimensions as opposed to two and being buffeted around and experiencing g-forces and feedback just doesn't happen on a home PC. On my PC, I can fly almost any aircraft and look like a pro. I realize that in the real world, I am nothing.
I guess the fact that I am aware of this and even talking about it up front is a good thing...better than going in naive. But I'm still afraid that things I've "learned" are going to only work against me.
Has anybody on this forum "transitioned" from being an "on-paper", "PC" pilot to the real thing and had major growing pains along the way?
I am really concerned that I will, even sub-subconsciously, think that I know everything the instructor tells me and come off as not taking him/her seriously...or for example come off as thinking I'm way ahead of my time, knowing for example what all the instruments are before he tells me...and this will just royally piss him off and put a bad taste in his mouth.
Maybe I am worrying too much about this?
I have thought about playing dumb...keeping my knowledge to myself and letting the instructor think he's telling me everything for the first time, perhaps this is the best "angle of attack", pun intended.
Granted, when I speak of things he might tell me that I already know, I do realize that probably 95% of what he tells me I will NOT already know...just obsessing over that 5% I guess.
Sorry for such a rambling post. I imagine this one will make for some good convo!
Yes, there is the potential to 'think' you know it all, and will likely miss out on important facts and figures.
So with that in mind, do go in with an open mind, study what you have to, listen to the instructors, ask the relevant questions, and actually learn what is presented.
Undoubtedly, some of your previous knowledge will be helpful, but do not rely on it, or use it as a crutch. As you have pointed out, real world flying is different.
However, you have earned points for enthusiasm - now back it up with some hard work and a 'positive' attitude.
So with that in mind, do go in with an open mind, study what you have to, listen to the instructors, ask the relevant questions, and actually learn what is presented.
Undoubtedly, some of your previous knowledge will be helpful, but do not rely on it, or use it as a crutch. As you have pointed out, real world flying is different.
However, you have earned points for enthusiasm - now back it up with some hard work and a 'positive' attitude.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I find sim flying more difficult than the real thing if that's any help. The fact that you are getting all sorts of feedback from a real aircraft makes them easier to fly IMO plus you're not looking through a 20 inch letterbox, you have peripheral vision, instant views of wherever you want and far better visual feedback from real world flying.
I have a quite highly regarded gliding sim called Condor, I can crash to order with that but in 20 years of flying gliders I've never had an incident. I'm the same with R/C aircraft, damn sight harder to fly those than the real deal.
I have a quite highly regarded gliding sim called Condor, I can crash to order with that but in 20 years of flying gliders I've never had an incident. I'm the same with R/C aircraft, damn sight harder to fly those than the real deal.
I learnt to fly after years as a kid on flight sim. I found it nothing but helpful; I already knew what the cockpit looked like, and what everything did! Real flying is much easier than Sim flying, I think.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Near the end of a long, long road
Age: 76
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Be careful with what you know. After my first lesson I walked into the clubhouse with my instructor,with other instructors present, and asked if there was any reason why she didn't put the carb heat to cold before landing. This didn't go down too well when she had to admit that she'd forgotten and even I realised I'd made a slight error.
She got back at me the next flight by asking me to do the takeoff but not telling me that I needed to use the rudder to steer by. I had to apologise about the language I used when I was convinced I was going to die as we headed across the runway!
If she's reading this I'm sure she'll recognise the situation, but she did go on to teach me to fly.
She got back at me the next flight by asking me to do the takeoff but not telling me that I needed to use the rudder to steer by. I had to apologise about the language I used when I was convinced I was going to die as we headed across the runway!
If she's reading this I'm sure she'll recognise the situation, but she did go on to teach me to fly.
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can't see why it was an error asking her, seemed like a perfectly reasonable question to me. I sometimes fly with a guy who constantly forgets to put the carb heat back in after a descent. I just point at it now instead of telling him, he's the guy with the license, I've never had an 'official' SEA powered flying lesson in my life.........
When I did my PPL(M), I was borderline fail in my technical exam (and had some great arguments en-route). This was just over a year after graduating with a degree in aerospace engineering.
When I did my JAR PPL, by then I was a chartered aeronautical engineer ditto. I recall particular problems with terminology on systems that I knew how to design - but didn't know the approved CAA way of talking about them.
By the time I did my CPL, I had a PhD in aeronautical engineering as well. By then I'd learned: just learn their words, their way of thinking, and accept that's what you need. Don't try to be clever, that's for later.
I also heard of a GP who may have been about the only person ever to fail the human factors exam. The rest of us, without that specialist knowledge, found it really easy.
Add into that that MS Flight Sim teaches many things from a gamers perspective, not a pilots. Visual attitude is just about everything, not instruments; system management, cockpit management and communications are paramount, whilst they pretty much sort themselves out on FS.
So, basically, you are learning everything for the first time - your FS time has little value. Just accept that and enjoy learning.
G
When I did my JAR PPL, by then I was a chartered aeronautical engineer ditto. I recall particular problems with terminology on systems that I knew how to design - but didn't know the approved CAA way of talking about them.
By the time I did my CPL, I had a PhD in aeronautical engineering as well. By then I'd learned: just learn their words, their way of thinking, and accept that's what you need. Don't try to be clever, that's for later.
I also heard of a GP who may have been about the only person ever to fail the human factors exam. The rest of us, without that specialist knowledge, found it really easy.
Add into that that MS Flight Sim teaches many things from a gamers perspective, not a pilots. Visual attitude is just about everything, not instruments; system management, cockpit management and communications are paramount, whilst they pretty much sort themselves out on FS.
So, basically, you are learning everything for the first time - your FS time has little value. Just accept that and enjoy learning.
G
Can't see why it was an error asking her, seemed like a perfectly reasonable question to me. I sometimes fly with a guy who constantly forgets to put the carb heat back in after a descent. I just point at it now instead of telling him, he's the guy with the license, I've never had an 'official' SEA powered flying lesson in my life.........
Debriefs are private, so that they can be frank.
Something else not taught by flight sim !
G
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I used to be heavely involved in Flight sim third party development as well as active in the forums.
What always surprised me was the level of knowledge especially in the hardcore flight sim brigade which would have made an ATP wince.
The knowledge was accurate and detailed. As a real world pilot I had to be really careful what I posted as even the tiniest mistake would be jumped on and rectified. (Very simular to here
So will flight sim knowledge harm you? NO Will you jump from a flight sim model into the real aircraft and fly the real with similar skills NO!!!
They are miles apart! The flight sim dynamics especially released by MS were poor puppet on a string dynamics with massive flaws.
Some of the third party addons were far better but still flawed compared to the real deal.
But will the knowledge you have gleaned from flight sim hinder you? NO you might even teach your instructor a thing or two on the knowledge side not the flying side
Pace
What always surprised me was the level of knowledge especially in the hardcore flight sim brigade which would have made an ATP wince.
The knowledge was accurate and detailed. As a real world pilot I had to be really careful what I posted as even the tiniest mistake would be jumped on and rectified. (Very simular to here
So will flight sim knowledge harm you? NO Will you jump from a flight sim model into the real aircraft and fly the real with similar skills NO!!!
They are miles apart! The flight sim dynamics especially released by MS were poor puppet on a string dynamics with massive flaws.
Some of the third party addons were far better but still flawed compared to the real deal.
But will the knowledge you have gleaned from flight sim hinder you? NO you might even teach your instructor a thing or two on the knowledge side not the flying side
Pace
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: 23, Railway Cuttings, East Cheam
Age: 68
Posts: 3,115
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Very good points from Ghengis. I'm toying with the idea of doing my powered ticket this year, and if I do I'm going to take it all one step at a time as if I've never been in an aircraft before or seen an instrument panel, regardless of the fact that I have C+G part 3 aircraft engineering, spent 20 odd years as an avionics guy, and have probably piloted light aircraft (as P2 obviously) for longer than I would have had to do to get a license in the first place........a little knowledge is a dangerous thing, plus nobody likes a smart arse.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Near the end of a long, long road
Age: 76
Posts: 158
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Debriefs are private, so that they can be frank.
I hope things have improved in the meantime.......................
That would have been a good idea except that briefings, let alone debriefs, were not that good/virtually non existent. The 'briefing' was as we were taxiing out and the 'debrief' was whilst taxiing in. I was more concerned with the aircraft than taking in what was said.
I hope things have improved in the meantime.......................
I hope things have improved in the meantime.......................
Which was the question then to ask in public! "When and where are we briefing / debriefing".
I recently went to get checked out in a new aircraft type (the 64th I've logged at PiC) and the checker saw no point in a formal brief or debrief saying we could do it in the cockpit. My views on this were made very clear.
G
Yet, to pass my CPL written exams - arguably a far lower level qualification than I already had - I had to put all of this aside, learn the SYLLABUS way of talking, thinking, and describing things, and the gamesmanship of passing the tests. If I had to, so do they!
I did actually learn a lot, which is all back into the pot and added to the existing knowledge base. It was frustrating at times, and sometimes I just had to compartmentalise engineering and "pilot" ways of thinking about things. But it worked out.
G
Plasmech
The biggest problem you will have is stop looking at the instruments and to look out of the window.
Light aircraft are flown by looking outside and using the natural horizon as a reference, you position the aircraft attitude relative to that visual reerence and set the appropriate power, the aircraft will then perform as required.
In brief , power + attitude = performance
Once you can do that, you will be shown how to use the instruments to check the aircraft performance.
If you don't lookout expect the instruments to be covered completely.
But whatever you do , enjoy it!!
The biggest problem you will have is stop looking at the instruments and to look out of the window.
Light aircraft are flown by looking outside and using the natural horizon as a reference, you position the aircraft attitude relative to that visual reerence and set the appropriate power, the aircraft will then perform as required.
In brief , power + attitude = performance
Once you can do that, you will be shown how to use the instruments to check the aircraft performance.
If you don't lookout expect the instruments to be covered completely.
But whatever you do , enjoy it!!
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think your obvious thurst for all things aviation will do you well when it comes to exam time, if you are enthusiastic about the subject then hopefully you shold enjoy the study (try and keep telling yourself that in the middle of the Law exam,.... this is fun.. really)
FSX etc is fine, if you can get some detailed scenery for where your flying it can help with cross countries (try before you buy)make sure the airspace is up todate and espcially instrument practice, as a practical aid, it hopeless.
What ever you do do not try a manouvere in FS and think you can do it in real life with out an instructor, or proper recovery instruction. Wing Loadings don't happen in FSX the same way in real life. Try a loop in a real trainer (PA38, C152) and you may just pull the wings off.
I'm a new PPL just broke 100+ hours and FSX didn't hinder me none.... i still play around on it when its a bit too damp or windy :-)
FSX etc is fine, if you can get some detailed scenery for where your flying it can help with cross countries (try before you buy)make sure the airspace is up todate and espcially instrument practice, as a practical aid, it hopeless.
What ever you do do not try a manouvere in FS and think you can do it in real life with out an instructor, or proper recovery instruction. Wing Loadings don't happen in FSX the same way in real life. Try a loop in a real trainer (PA38, C152) and you may just pull the wings off.
I'm a new PPL just broke 100+ hours and FSX didn't hinder me none.... i still play around on it when its a bit too damp or windy :-)
Why do it if it's not fun?
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Bournemouth
Posts: 4,779
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I also heard of a GP who may have been about the only person ever to fail the human factors exam
FFF
-------------
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: London
Age: 46
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have gone the opposite route it seems, in that I had no idea about flight sim until after I passed my ppl
Since starting my imc rating however I have used flight sim alot to practice some of the approaches, which I have found really useful
I do them more to just go over in my head what I hope to do during my next lesson and to get familiar or more familiar with the procedure
I can see myself using flight sim to fly an approach to an airport that I intend to visit before I was to head off, again just for familiarization
Good luck with your ppl
Nick
Since starting my imc rating however I have used flight sim alot to practice some of the approaches, which I have found really useful
I do them more to just go over in my head what I hope to do during my next lesson and to get familiar or more familiar with the procedure
I can see myself using flight sim to fly an approach to an airport that I intend to visit before I was to head off, again just for familiarization
Good luck with your ppl
Nick
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 335
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I know an A320 pilot who used FSX to practice non precision NDB approaches as it was apparently a requirement to do so for his check rides?
I use it for practicing radial intercepts on VOR's its a cheap way to get the technique down.
I use it for practicing radial intercepts on VOR's its a cheap way to get the technique down.