PPL- Spin Training
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I agree with you PACE but the modern thinking seems is to teach people to drive the aircraft to a set of rules which will be punishable if you break them. Ifthey arn't written down rules the double edged sword of "airmanship" is used to try and bludger pilots into doing some right bizarre crap. Usually with the beating stick of "safety" used. Quite alot of cases it not being safety its just the dumbing down of the majority to protect the talent limited minority who shouldn't be PIC of an aircraft.
There are more and more instructors coming on the scene that have been trained with the mind set they will go straight to a multi crew cockpit and have been trained to fly as light aircraft as if its a heavy. The whole concept of being a pilot is alien to them. They are operators not pilots, taking the autopilot out is terrible airmanship. And to be honest it proberly is with there level of handling skills.
There are more and more instructors coming on the scene that have been trained with the mind set they will go straight to a multi crew cockpit and have been trained to fly as light aircraft as if its a heavy. The whole concept of being a pilot is alien to them. They are operators not pilots, taking the autopilot out is terrible airmanship. And to be honest it proberly is with there level of handling skills.
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Pace, and Mad Jock,
I could not agree more! I can remember hearing about a spin being a cloud break procedure, and mentioning this in a discussion with my peers, decades back. An expression of shock and horror filled the room. They could not decide to be horrified because I was full of it, or pilots actually did that back in the day!
Through what has been termed here a "heritage of inexperience", combined with a false sense of safety conservatism, and finally, an apparent yielding to a desire for less total training being required to earn a license, things like proper spin training are falling by the wayside.
The other week, for the first time, I met a Canadian trained pilot who told me that he had never experienced a spin. I suppose I'm a victim of this too, as in my helicopter training, and 40 hours of advanced training after PPL, I have never done a "full on" autorotation. No one will allow them now in their helicopters, for training purposes.
I hope that instructors of today devote themselves to their students enough, that they maintain good spinning skills themselves (not as though it is difficult really), and demonstrate spins to their students. Students, and new pilots, you should be requesting this!
I could not agree more! I can remember hearing about a spin being a cloud break procedure, and mentioning this in a discussion with my peers, decades back. An expression of shock and horror filled the room. They could not decide to be horrified because I was full of it, or pilots actually did that back in the day!
Through what has been termed here a "heritage of inexperience", combined with a false sense of safety conservatism, and finally, an apparent yielding to a desire for less total training being required to earn a license, things like proper spin training are falling by the wayside.
The other week, for the first time, I met a Canadian trained pilot who told me that he had never experienced a spin. I suppose I'm a victim of this too, as in my helicopter training, and 40 hours of advanced training after PPL, I have never done a "full on" autorotation. No one will allow them now in their helicopters, for training purposes.
I hope that instructors of today devote themselves to their students enough, that they maintain good spinning skills themselves (not as though it is difficult really), and demonstrate spins to their students. Students, and new pilots, you should be requesting this!
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The majority of instructors in the UK are of the mind set of, please please can I go and fly something that burns Jet A.
And they can't maintain skills that they never had in the first place.
And they can't maintain skills that they never had in the first place.
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Yes, things which burn Jet A can be fun, and I enjoy them, particularly when they have a propeller in front, and can happily operate from an 1800 foot grass runway. But, The pilot (any very much more so, if that person is instructing) must be very familiar on the type they are flying. This includes being compotent to fly the plane (perhaps with great concentration) to the limits of its capabilities, if needed.
I used to find myself asking "Really!?", when Transport Canada flight test staff told me that I would be required to demonstrate spins in the modified aircraft I was test flying. Though I have never not spun, throughout my flying years, I used to keep it a secret, as my C 150 is STOL equipped, and that takes it's spin approval away. Somehow, I managed to get into spins fairly regularly anyway - either careless flying, or an effort to remain proficient - the lines are blurred.
After spinning many GA types, the common characteristics of the spin became much more familiar to me, and were not alarming - so what if it is pointed straight down, it's not going very fast anyway! It's an unusual attitude, just recover it. So being told I would have to spin the Caravan was not a big leap for me. That said, I did prepare and research carefully, and doing it without a "G" meter would have not been adequately safe. It was facinating how the C of G position dramtically changed the recovery characteristics.
I dream of flying some military trainer type, which is actually "hard" to recover, just for the experience - but I doubt it's in my future.... Hmmm, maybe Harvard one day....
I used to find myself asking "Really!?", when Transport Canada flight test staff told me that I would be required to demonstrate spins in the modified aircraft I was test flying. Though I have never not spun, throughout my flying years, I used to keep it a secret, as my C 150 is STOL equipped, and that takes it's spin approval away. Somehow, I managed to get into spins fairly regularly anyway - either careless flying, or an effort to remain proficient - the lines are blurred.
After spinning many GA types, the common characteristics of the spin became much more familiar to me, and were not alarming - so what if it is pointed straight down, it's not going very fast anyway! It's an unusual attitude, just recover it. So being told I would have to spin the Caravan was not a big leap for me. That said, I did prepare and research carefully, and doing it without a "G" meter would have not been adequately safe. It was facinating how the C of G position dramtically changed the recovery characteristics.
I dream of flying some military trainer type, which is actually "hard" to recover, just for the experience - but I doubt it's in my future.... Hmmm, maybe Harvard one day....
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I could not agree more! I can remember hearing about a spin being a cloud break procedure,
Pace
I dream of flying some military trainer type, which is actually "hard" to recover, just for the experience - but I doubt it's in my future.... Hmmm, maybe Harvard one day....
Bulldog, erect idle spin, half in-spin aileron applied during the developed spin.
G
I teach lots of spins...as part of a formal aerobatics program (I have a Canadian aerobatic instructor rating). Spins are important in aerobatics both because it is an aerobatic maneuver in its own right and because if you screw up many of the other aerobatic maneuvers you will probably end up in a spin.
However when I am teaching for the PPL the whole point of spin training is to avoid having the aircraft enter a spin in the first place and if it does depart at the stall to stop the aircraft from continuing towards a spin entry spin by controlling the yaw. I want my students to instinctively use the rudder to stop any developing yaw as the lower the nose to unstall the aircraft. If this is done the aircraft can never enter a spin, therefore I see no purpose in teaching a student how to recover from a spin. I will however demonstrate one two turn spin only to show them what happens if you don't get on the rudder early. I will also not teach spin entries, instead I teach the full variety stall entries including those which are likely to depart into a spin (eg power on climbing turn stalls). Personally I do not think anyone should be playing with spins unless they have had aerobatic training.
However when I am teaching for the PPL the whole point of spin training is to avoid having the aircraft enter a spin in the first place and if it does depart at the stall to stop the aircraft from continuing towards a spin entry spin by controlling the yaw. I want my students to instinctively use the rudder to stop any developing yaw as the lower the nose to unstall the aircraft. If this is done the aircraft can never enter a spin, therefore I see no purpose in teaching a student how to recover from a spin. I will however demonstrate one two turn spin only to show them what happens if you don't get on the rudder early. I will also not teach spin entries, instead I teach the full variety stall entries including those which are likely to depart into a spin (eg power on climbing turn stalls). Personally I do not think anyone should be playing with spins unless they have had aerobatic training.
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Personally I do not think anyone should be playing with spins unless they have had aerobatic training.
"Aerobatic training" is a very broad brush. It is also likely limited by the aircraft type available for the training. I have had aerobatic training, but do not consider myself compotent in areobatics in the bigger sense. My training was in Cessna 150 Aerobat, and Citabria (airbatic backward, for those who have not heard yet). I am adequately compotent in the maneuvers for which those types are appropriate, but I know that there are many aerobatic maneuvers I have not experienced, nor would attempt on my own, were I in a capable type.
I agree that intentional spins are an aerobatic maneuver, but I would say that they can be trained, and perfected in the absence of more indepth aerobatic training. I was certainly adequately compotent in spin entry and recovery, long before I was trained in aerobatics.
But, yes, aerobatic training is vitally important to overall compotence of any fixed wing pilot. I spin, loop and roll regularly, just to keep fresh.
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Personally I do not think anyone should be playing with spins unless they have had aerobatic training.
On one of my flights immediately before first solo, I did three multi-turn spins. So does everybody else at the club.
Bottom line "spinning" at the flying school level should be all about avoiding the spin in the first place and if one is careless enough to let the aircraft start into a spin; to then recover immediately. Therefore IMO there should never be more than a 1/2 turn during any flight school spin training
I am not a glider pilot so I have a question. Is there any part of any glider flight where you would want to deliberately enter and then recover from a spin ?
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Big Pistons asks "Is there any part of any glider flight where you would want to deliberately enter and then recover from a spin?"
Yes, darling. EVERY FLIGHT, ACTUALLY. We have to do it before qualifying for solo flight. I used to hate and fear it, but after 1,800 hours of instructing, cross country and competition flying, I LOVE IT! So lots of us who fly gliders do indeed want to spin. When I was instructing (had to retire last April) I would demonstrate how to enter a spin and how to recover. And then ask the student to enter the spin himself, and do the recovery. From safe height and in a safe glider, of course. You cannot really appreciate the difference between a spiral dive and a spin without doing it yourself, I feel that if the instructor puts it in the spin and then asks the student to recover, the lesson has not been learned. There is a certain "whump" when the autoroation begins that is quite delightful.
So now, because a slight impairment to my vision led to me stepping down from solo as well as from instructing, I have to fly with a safety pilot - yee haw! Would you like to be my safety pilot? Only instructors need apply.
And be sure you are strapped in tightly, and gone through your HASSL checks!
PS. That's 1,800 hours in gliders, 1,200 in power, iR and seaplane rating...
Yes, darling. EVERY FLIGHT, ACTUALLY. We have to do it before qualifying for solo flight. I used to hate and fear it, but after 1,800 hours of instructing, cross country and competition flying, I LOVE IT! So lots of us who fly gliders do indeed want to spin. When I was instructing (had to retire last April) I would demonstrate how to enter a spin and how to recover. And then ask the student to enter the spin himself, and do the recovery. From safe height and in a safe glider, of course. You cannot really appreciate the difference between a spiral dive and a spin without doing it yourself, I feel that if the instructor puts it in the spin and then asks the student to recover, the lesson has not been learned. There is a certain "whump" when the autoroation begins that is quite delightful.
So now, because a slight impairment to my vision led to me stepping down from solo as well as from instructing, I have to fly with a safety pilot - yee haw! Would you like to be my safety pilot? Only instructors need apply.
And be sure you are strapped in tightly, and gone through your HASSL checks!
PS. That's 1,800 hours in gliders, 1,200 in power, iR and seaplane rating...
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152's had bent horizontal tail spars as a result of botched spin recoveries.
I think thats a bit of wishful thinking recovering the dreaded 152 from a spin
just take your hands and feet off everything and the little bird cannot wait to recover herself.Normally a spin will stabilise at a constant speed and is not a high speed high G episode like a spiral dive.
Apart from that I agree with you that once developed unless you are into aeobatics the idea is to recover but 152 the spin challenge of the century break 152s ?
I think not!Probably bent horizontal spars because they thought they were in a spin when infact they were in a spiral dive
and thats why spinning should be taught.Pace
Pace
Breaking a C152 in a botched spin recovery is dead easy. Start with the desire to do a multi-turn spin. As the aircraft starts to transition into a stabilized spin (about the 2 turn mark) the aircraft rate of rotation starts to increase, startled by this the student unconsciously relaxes a bit of back pressure, the aircraft transitions to a spiral dive and because of the steep nose down attitude starts to rapidly accelerate, student doesn't notice this untill increasing wind noise and building Gee finally gets their attention. They start the recovery with the airspeed going through 120 kts and the nose still way down and the student panics and heaves back on the yoke. Pulling back on the yoke will be easy since the aircraft was probably trimmed for slow flight which will exacerbate the nose pitching up abruptly and will result in positive Gee overload damage occuring in the tail, the weakest part of the aircraft. Total elapsed time from when the spin goes bad to wrinkled metal will be measured in a handfull of seconds. This type of damage will never happen if the spin is taught by an aerobatic instructor because the spin will be be deconstructed into stages and the student will learn what to look for in each of the 4 parts of the spin. There is more to teaching spins than watching the world go around and around in the windshield.
Mary you have not answered my question, so I will ask it in a more specific way. When during any glider flight would entering a spin be of practical use to the conduct of the flight ?
Breaking a C152 in a botched spin recovery is dead easy. Start with the desire to do a multi-turn spin. As the aircraft starts to transition into a stabilized spin (about the 2 turn mark) the aircraft rate of rotation starts to increase, startled by this the student unconsciously relaxes a bit of back pressure, the aircraft transitions to a spiral dive and because of the steep nose down attitude starts to rapidly accelerate, student doesn't notice this untill increasing wind noise and building Gee finally gets their attention. They start the recovery with the airspeed going through 120 kts and the nose still way down and the student panics and heaves back on the yoke. Pulling back on the yoke will be easy since the aircraft was probably trimmed for slow flight which will exacerbate the nose pitching up abruptly and will result in positive Gee overload damage occuring in the tail, the weakest part of the aircraft. Total elapsed time from when the spin goes bad to wrinkled metal will be measured in a handfull of seconds. This type of damage will never happen if the spin is taught by an aerobatic instructor because the spin will be be deconstructed into stages and the student will learn what to look for in each of the 4 parts of the spin. There is more to teaching spins than watching the world go around and around in the windshield.
Mary you have not answered my question, so I will ask it in a more specific way. When during any glider flight would entering a spin be of practical use to the conduct of the flight ?
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BigPistons
So we are agreed the damage is done in a spiral dive and the students havent a clue whether they are in a spin or spiral dive?
Thought so! but that just echos my point that both spins and spiral dives should be thoroughly taught and highlights my point that we teach aeroplane driving not flying nowadays?
Pace
So we are agreed the damage is done in a spiral dive and the students havent a clue whether they are in a spin or spiral dive?
Thought so! but that just echos my point that both spins and spiral dives should be thoroughly taught and highlights my point that we teach aeroplane driving not flying nowadays?
Pace
BigPistons
So we are agreed the damage is done in a spiral dive and the students havent a clue whether they are in a spin or spiral dive?
Thought so! but that just echos my point that both spins and spiral dives should be thoroughly taught and highlights my point that we teach aeroplane driving not flying nowadays?
Pace
So we are agreed the damage is done in a spiral dive and the students havent a clue whether they are in a spin or spiral dive?
Thought so! but that just echos my point that both spins and spiral dives should be thoroughly taught and highlights my point that we teach aeroplane driving not flying nowadays?
Pace
You won't make aircraft aircraft drivers into aircraft pilots by teaching them spins IMO. Aircraft pilots don't need to learn how to enter and recover from a fully developed spin because this maneuver is of no practical value during non aerobatic flight. Instead of spending valuable training time practicing the entry and exit parts of spins I think it is far more valuable to emphasize the airmanship and stick and rudder skills required for spin recognition and avoidance and rapid recovery from an incipient spin.
Since I teach aerobatics I give all my students the hard sell on going on to formal aerobatic training as a way to further build flying skills and aircraft handling confidence...and where they will be taught spinning by an instructor competent and confident regardless of what the aircraft attitude/orientation is, and in a proper aircraft.
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Since I teach aerobatics I give all my students the hard sell on going on to formal aerobatic training as a way to further build flying skills and aircraft handling confidence...and where they will be taught spinning by a professional and in a proper aircraft.
You are one of my forum celebs and one whos writing I admire and I dont disagree with what you say above one bit.
My point is that we have to teach pilots to fly aeroplanes which means teaching them to deal with all that the aircraft can throw at them. Not because they will need those skills because hopefully they wont.
But incipient this and incipient that means that the poor student hasnt a clue what incipient this or that can lead to or if ever the poor sod goes beyond incipient this or that for whatever reason what does he do????
I would shave off a couple of hours in the PPL syllabus and add a couple of hours pure aerobatic teaching in the right aircraft with the right instructor.
Pace
Addendum
(5000+ hours, single and multi-engine prop, multi-engine turboprop,multi-engine jet Captain (not heavy) ATP and thinks you should train pilots not drivers
Was Swiss Cottage near Abbey Road in a lot of ways
Last edited by Pace; 3rd Feb 2011 at 23:08.
You won't make aircraft aircraft drivers into aircraft pilots by teaching them spins IMO. Aircraft pilots don't need to learn how to enter and recover from a fully developed spin because this maneuver is of no practical value during non aerobatic flight.
Thorough and regular spin training makes for a much better all-round pilot. IMAO.
(10000+ hours, a good chunk of it military; single and multi-engine prop, multi-engine turboprop, single and multi-engine jet, QFI , Staff QFI..... and now flying heavy scheduled airliners.)
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Spin entry and recovery is, of course, a normal part of pre-solo training in gliders.
There's really only one reason why you would spin in a glider and that's the same as with a power aircraft: Mishandling the aircraft so that you get into an asymmetric stall. I think the glider world should go the same way as the power world, and simply teach stall recognition and avoidance, rather than deliberately stalling and spinning.
Having said that, the pressure on the gliding world to abolish the whole spinning thing in their training syllabus is much less. I was shown a spin in the AS K-21 and first of all I was surprised how much effort it took to get it to spin at all, second on how incredibly sedate the spin actually was, and how incredibly easy it was to recover - we lost less than 300' with a full-turn spin.
Spinning in a glider is nowhere near the exciting/dangerous affair it can be in a powered aircraft. Must be because of all the weights (instructor and student really) are all neatly concentrated near the CofG, and the long wings which provide a lot of anti-spin drag. It's not like you've got a massive block of metal sitting at the extremity of the fuselage, or any gyro effects from the fan up front.
Nevertheless, spin a glider on short final, or in the turn to final, and you're just as dead as a power pilot doing the same thing.
So I think the gliding world should follow the power world and focus on stall/spin awareness, recognition and avoidance, rather than requiring students to be proficient in spinning. Leave the spinning for proper aerobatics training, in proper aerobatics aircraft.
I would also note that, at least for small civil types, inadvertant spins don't happen in avoidance maneuvers, they happen when the aircraft is mis-handled in the circuit. If the aircraft is allowed to enter a spin at circuit height it doesn't matter now well the pilot can recover from a spin the aircraft is going to hit the ground before a recovery can be effected.
In any case if you want to rant about airplane drivers vs pilots the number one failing in todays new pilots is not a lack of spin profficency, it is the ball is never in the centre
I think I have monopolized this thread long enough so I will step aside and allow others to comment