PPL- Spin Training

[Nick-viation]

Hi im about to start my ppl in a pa28-161 warrior iii, and i wanted to ask if you actually do spin training as i have read that the -161 is not certified to spinning?

Thanks

[Morrisman1]

if you can get a 161/181 to wing drop stall let alone spin you are doing pretty good!

[Nick-viation]

Cheers, did you train in the pa28-161, if so how many lessons/hours did you spend on praticing stalling?

[Genghis the Engineer]

The syllabus requires 2 hours minimum of stall and spin awareness, expect to do a bit more than that when you include slow flight. The -161 is not cleared for deliberate spinning (nor are most PA28 variants), but in any case spinning hasn't been a part of the PPL syllabus for over 20 years. The reason it was removed, was the belief that more accidents were being caused than prevented by the training, and historical data bears that out, despite the fact that many "old guard" have been arguing for the re-inclusion of spin training ever since. If you want to learn about spinning, there's much to be said for it, but it's outside the syllabus - see if there's an aerobatic instructor and suitable aeroplane in your school, but don't do it until you've done at-least 10 hours flying (preferably 20), it'll just confuse you. The bulk of your training will be about avoiding the stall, rather than actually stalling or spinning. The flying characteristics of any PA28 make them extremely spin resistant anyhow, and you'd have to try incredibly hard to make it. The same to a large extrent is true of the stall, which requires a great deal of pull and to the best of my knowledge nobody has ever killed themselves through an inadvertent stall in a tapered wing PA28 (which includes the -161) in the UK.

Any questions?

G

Aviation Boffin.

[Nick-viation]

Thanks for all the information , Could you please tell me a little bit more about the tapered wings?

[Big Pistons Forever]

If you get into an inadvertent spin it will almost certainly be at too low an altitude to recover, therefore virtually all nations have
removed spin training from their PPL syllabus in favor of spin avoidance training.
A spin is an aerobatic maneuver and therefore there is IMO no reason for a non acrobatically trained pilot to ever deliberately spin his/her aircraft. As for inadvertently entering a spin......well I tell my students if you get in an inadvertent spin you were stupid times three.

1) You entered slow flight without recognizing it

2) You let the aircraft stall without preventing it

3) Before unstalling the aircraft you let it yaw

[Morrisman1]

I did my initial training in an Alpha 160a (NZ built robin r2160) so did all my stall training in that but as far as pa28 training, Ive done all my PA28 work in a -181 archer 2 and an archer 3. Stalling in that is the most boring stalling could ever be!! you can just hold it in the stall and when you are sick of that just add power, yes not technically a proper recovery but the plane doesnt give a crap.

The tapered wings are fitted to the -1x1 models and are very stable, some were fitted with flow disruptors on the leading edge of the inner wing section and they are there to further prevent wing drop.

The archer is a very easy plane to fly, it is forgiving (unless you are fast on approach then you will always do a floater). I preferred the alpha for going out to have some fun, its more responsive and you really feel at one with the aircraft but the PA28 is a better cruiser for your cross country training.

[Pilot DAR]

I agree with Big Pistons, that there is no reason for a pilot to blunder into a spin during general aviation flying. That said, I believe that spin training has merit, in that it makes the new pilot aware of what the most demanding unusual attitude recovery would be. If you are comfortable recovering a spin, you can feel confident. I used to be surprised how many pilots I fly with have never spun. Now I realize it's just not trained any more.

The testing I do includes the requirement to spin many aircraft. Though I agree that is well out of the norm, it is still a good exercise, and I'm glad for my early training in spins, and practice all the years along the way.

I do believe that once you start instructing, or even checking out other pilots, spin recovery proficiency is vital. Similarly, commercial flying of a patrolling, photography, or unusual attitude nature should be flown by spin trained pilots.

I think it is a loss, that the desire to streamline flight training, is causing the removal of some subjects - including spinning. I hope instructors take the opportunities available, to familiarize their students with spins anyway.

If you can - spin....

[The Flying Chicken]

I will always demonstrate spins to students at some point in their training, but I make it clear it is a demonstration, rather than a full teaching element. Why? I think you can talk about spinning with her autorotations, inverted possibilities and this and that until the cows come home, and talk about recoveries in that too - Does it make sense to the student? I think not. Show them a spin, show them a recovery and it'll click. However, to become efficient and fully competent at spin recovery requires a lot more practice, which is why I demonstrate, as opposed to teach.
Some may argue that the demonstrations make your average PPL holder think they can cope with spins - From the expressions on their face, I can say no, and most return post PPL and ask for spin training or aerobatic training - And I'm happy to oblige!

[mary meagher]

I'm going to omit names and places in the following account.

With a gliding "Silver C", and the necessary written exams passed (barely) I asked to fly with the Chief of a training establishment to go for the PPL, as it was rumored he was experienced in doing that particular conversion, needing only 8 or 10 hours to accomplish in those days.

I think he was of the opinion I was a pain in the butt, and he didn't really want to fly with me. It was my first flight in a Cessna 152, I was too ignorant to make sure I was strapped in correctly, able to reach the controls comfortably. I also mentioned I was nervous about spinning.....

The day was not completely VFR, we ascended through some broken cu, to the practice area. I did turns, etc etc. He seemed impatient, in a hurry to get it over with. So after 20 minutes, he said "I have control!" and put the Aerobat into a truly nasty spin. 3 turns, and handed it back to me on the downwind leg. I think he really wanted to discourage me from flying with him again, it certainly had that effect. Made a point after that, NOT of spin avoidance, but Chief avoidance! and completed the training with an eager younger instructor.

Not only certain instructors should be avoided, but certain aircraft as well.
We do a lot of spin training in gliders. There are some types with excellent safety records. And there are other types.

[Cows getting bigger]

Ghengis, I wouldn't dispute the need for a significant amount of stall/spin awareness training but can you point me in the direction of a specified 2hr syllabus requirement? The old CAA system required 4hrs SSAT but, as far as I'm aware, there is no specified time requirement under JAA (or whatever authority we are currently operating under ).

[Final 3 Greens]

I agree with Big Pistons, that there is no reason for a pilot to blunder into a spin during general aviation flying.

The only circumstance I can think of is aggressive avoiding action in a close airprox, but the probability is pretty low.

Much more likely to get into trouble in the circuit, where you would be very lucky to recover, stall/spin avoidance training has always made a lot of sense to me.

One of my US instructors told me, a long time ago, that if you did manage to get a PA28 taper wing into a spin (which, he said, in itself was no mean feat), unless you were in the utility category, it might spin flat and be unrecoverable, this being one of the reasons Piper never sought spinning certification.

Anyone else heard that one? True or urban legend?

[Morrisman1]

One of my US instructors told me, a long time ago, that if you did manage to get a PA28 taper wing into a spin (which, he said, in itself was no mean feat), unless you were in the utility category, it might spin flat and be unrecoverable, this being one of the reasons Piper never sought spinning certification.

Id be surprised, there is a strong pitch forward at the stall int eh PA28-181, I am under the belief that to flat spin you would have to have at least a neutral pitching moment at the stall.

I may be wrong because I've only done stalls in the PA28-181 with the two rear seats empty

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by Cows getting bigger

Ghengis, I wouldn't dispute the need for a significant amount of stall/spin awareness training but can you point me in the direction of a specified 2hr syllabus requirement? The old CAA system required 4hrs SSAT but, as far as I'm aware, there is no specified time requirement under JAA (or whatever authority we are currently operating under ).

There certainly was when I completed my first JAR licence in 2000, but I've just tried to look it up and yes - I think you're correct, that minimum hour requirement no longer exists.

G

[Genghis the Engineer]

Originally Posted by Morrisman1

Id be surprised, there is a strong pitch forward at the stall int eh PA28-181, I am under the belief that to flat spin you would have to have at least a neutral pitching moment at the stall.

I may be wrong because I've only done stalls in the PA28-181 with the two rear seats empty

Any significant tendency towards an unrecoverable spin would have prevented certification at-all. The issue is, I think, simply that Piper didn't feel it necessary to do the significant extra work (and attract the significant extra product liability) if the aeroplane was certified for deliberate spinning.

Answering an earlier question, in the early 1970s, Piper switched from a straight wing to a tapered wing on the PA28. The tapered wing aircraft (-161, -181, -200R...) have a virtually zero incidence of stall related fatal accidents; the older straight wing aeroplanes (-140, -150, -160, -180...) have a good, but not a zero rate of stall related fatal accidents.

There were other changes at the same time (such as a shift from a visual to an audio stall warner) so the wing itself may, or may not, be the reason for this change.

G

[Pilot DAR]

Let's remind ourselves that the design requirements for all single engined aircraft certified under CAR 3 or FAR 23 must comply with 23.221 (1).....:

(iii) [ It must be impossible to obtain unrecoverable spins with any use of the flight or engine power controls either at the entry into or during the spin; and

I have spun many certified types during flight testing, and never had a problem. The differences I have seen, seem to be will it come out on it's own, or do I have to actually work to recover it. The Cessna 206 with an aft C of G did require aggressive recovery, and the 185 floatplane was similar. That said, this is a "don't try this at home folks" situation, the fact that spinning is possible in these aircraft does not mean that you won't be getting close to limits during recoveries. When I test, I have an accelerometer, so as to be precise when recovering from resulting dives.

My spins earlier this month were in a Grand Caravan. It is magnifently designed from a flying point of view, though again, the C of G position greatly changed the spin recovery characteristics. Maximum rate of descent during recovery, 9200 FPM, while seeing 2.8 G at .9 Vne.

Here's a tail video camera snapshot (im still trying to figure out how to edit 15 seconds, out of an hour long video of the second spin flight!)

[BackPacker]

From the expressions on their face, I can say no, and most return post PPL and ask for spin training or aerobatic training - And I'm happy to oblige!

Lots of good things being said about spin training in general. I think it's justified that it's no longer part of the core PPL syllabus, partly because it may well have increased the accident rate instead of reducing it, and partly because the situation where you might get into an inadvertent spin if you're not careful (in the circuit, turning to final) is unrecoverable anyway. So the emphasis on stall recognition/avoidance is something I fully agree with.

But I also think it's a good idea to do some spin training, with a properly certified aircraft, a suitable instructor, in a suitable bit of airspace and with suitable weather. Just to get a feel for what's it like to fly at the edges of the envelope and beyond. However, if you do something like that, I think you should make it into a proper Unusual Attitudes training, covering not just spins and spin recovery, but also:
- Departure stalls: Stalls with full power and a ridiculously high fuselage angle. They do happen if people go from a high-powered airframe to an identical, but lower powered airframe, and misjudge the initial climb angle.
- High-speed stalls, for instance done in full-power, very steep (75 degrees or more) steep turns, to show that, indeed, an aircraft can stall at any speed and any attitude. (You might also want to include ballistic flight, stall turns and wingovers to show that an aircraft can also fly - briefly - below Vs.)
- Recovery from almost-Vne dives (at least well above Vno)
- Recovery from upset situations, for instance from inverted flight
- In-flight engine restarts (plus you'll find how hard it actually is to stop a fixed-pitch engine in-flight)
- Extreme side/forward slipping with or without flaps (very useful technique in case of an engine failure, to make the field when you're too high)
- Steep descending turns (controlled spiral dives) - the fastest controlled method to get down on the ground in case of, e.g., fire on board. And the proper recovery technique of course. Roll, then pitch, but not simultaneously.

And I'm sure there are other things you can throw in here as well.

[Pitts2112]

I think Backpacker is spot on.

The first thing I did after getting my PPL was schedule an hour of spin training. I had never been comfortable in stalls and did manage to initiate a 1/4 turn spin in a C152 while badly dorking up solo stall practice - that scared the hell out of me. I was apprehensive in the spin training as we climbed and prepared for the spin until the wing dropped and it started to autorotate. At that point, it became the most fun I'd ever had!! As soon as the nose dropped to the left, it became an unmitigated blast!

More than that, though, it removed the fear of the unknown - just what is on the back side of a spin that's so dangerous that you can't do them in PPL training? Answer - not much, really. It's a completely controllable maneuver in most airplanes. In fact, in aerobatic types, you can control the recovery to within less than 90 degrees of an intended recovery point. Spins of 1 1/4 and such are routine maneuvers in aerobatic contests.

After just that one spin session, I was no longer afraid of the airplane falling out of the sky, unusual attitudes didn't bother me, and my confidence in the aircraft and in myself skyrocketed.

Definitely do it!

[bern444]

(im still trying to figure out how to edit 15 seconds, out of an hour long video of the second spin flight!)

Depends on the format, but VirtualDub is free and does simple edits. And SUPER, though a pain in various ways, can convert from and to a lot of formats, so if VirtualDub can't read the video you can fix it. GSpot will tell you the format if you need to know. These are free tools - Avid, Final Cut Pro, Adobe Premiere, Sony Vegas, etc will do a more sophisticated job at significant cost.

B

[Cows getting bigger]

- Departure stalls: Yes, a JAA requirement
- High-speed stalls, for instance done in full-power, very steep (75 degrees or more) steep turns, to show that, indeed, an aircraft can stall at any speed and any attitude. (You might also want to include ballistic flight, stall turns and wingovers to show that an aircraft can also fly - briefly - below Vs.) - Sort of covered under JAA. Certainly the increased wing loading bit is a requirement.
- Recovery from almost-Vne dives (at least well above Vno) - Good idea. Probably could be covered as part of the spiral dive scenario.
- Recovery from upset situations, for instance from inverted flight Yes. Normally covered from Ex6 onwards although I don't think the majority would experience inverted flight (aircraft limitations).
- In-flight engine restarts (plus you'll find how hard it actually is to stop a fixed-pitch engine in-flight) Dunno about this one. A bit of risk involved. The first time I did this was on my FI course.
- Extreme side/forward slipping with or without flaps (very useful technique in case of an engine failure, to make the field when you're too high) Slipping is part of the AOPA (UK) 'syllabus' and I would think that it is pointless teach it half heartedly.
- Steep descending turns (controlled spiral dives) - the fastest controlled method to get down on the ground in case of, e.g., fire on board. And the proper recovery technique of course. Roll, then pitch, but not simultaneously. A JAA requirement.

In summary, many good suggestions that should already be taught.