Is it really so bad?
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Is it really so bad?
I'm new to flying - still a PPL student. So, I'm starting to read around the subject and soak up knowledge with the aspiration of eventually being safe and competent.
But, what do I find? Looking at this forum, I'm beginning to think that I'm doomed to be surrounded by conflict and disdain....there's an ongoing theme about ATCOs apparently thinking that GA pilots are a nuisance at best and a liability at worst. There's talk of how EASA is going to spoil everyone's fun. There's threads explaining why most PPLs don't even bother to keep up their licence. There is seemingly a mountain of materials full of acronyms which are there to provide sport for those who revel in showing how most people misunderstand and are simply inept. I see there are debates from the professional pilots about whether GA pilots should ever be let loose in a cockpit. There are posts which suggest that the weather will defeat any serious attempt to actually go somewhere, and if the weather doesn't stop you, controlled airspace will...and so it goes on
I haven't seen such despondency until we had our first kids and everyone seemed to gleefully tell us how it was going to be hell for the next 18 years.
Are you all trying to warn off mere mortals before we get out of our depth?
But, what do I find? Looking at this forum, I'm beginning to think that I'm doomed to be surrounded by conflict and disdain....there's an ongoing theme about ATCOs apparently thinking that GA pilots are a nuisance at best and a liability at worst. There's talk of how EASA is going to spoil everyone's fun. There's threads explaining why most PPLs don't even bother to keep up their licence. There is seemingly a mountain of materials full of acronyms which are there to provide sport for those who revel in showing how most people misunderstand and are simply inept. I see there are debates from the professional pilots about whether GA pilots should ever be let loose in a cockpit. There are posts which suggest that the weather will defeat any serious attempt to actually go somewhere, and if the weather doesn't stop you, controlled airspace will...and so it goes on
I haven't seen such despondency until we had our first kids and everyone seemed to gleefully tell us how it was going to be hell for the next 18 years.
Are you all trying to warn off mere mortals before we get out of our depth?
Flying as a hobby is very expensive and time consuming.
Most professional pilots and air traffic controllers are just about right in their opinion of many GA pilots.
EASA is probably going to spoil a lot of things that didn't need spoiling.
Lots of PPLs don't keep flying in the long term.
I misunderstand a great deal and am often inept.
The weather will often defeat you, controlled airspace will sometimes confound you.
Just like kids, it's still worth it. Anything with the capacity to make you feel so alive and see the beauty in the world (kids or flying) is worth the pain.
Merry Christmas.
Most professional pilots and air traffic controllers are just about right in their opinion of many GA pilots.
EASA is probably going to spoil a lot of things that didn't need spoiling.
Lots of PPLs don't keep flying in the long term.
I misunderstand a great deal and am often inept.
The weather will often defeat you, controlled airspace will sometimes confound you.
Just like kids, it's still worth it. Anything with the capacity to make you feel so alive and see the beauty in the world (kids or flying) is worth the pain.
Merry Christmas.
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Dont forget, this forum brings out some good points and all of the bad points.
Just like watching the news! The whole Controlled Airspace thing shouldn't worry you because ATC can only say yay or nay and if the latter then fly around, over or underneath...
I wouldn't throw away the chance to change your identity as a person with fun you and your family,friends will never forget based on a forum.
I think most pilots have loved aviation since being children etc so if thats the case i think the only regret you may have in say 5 years time if you quit now is that you quit.
Just like watching the news! The whole Controlled Airspace thing shouldn't worry you because ATC can only say yay or nay and if the latter then fly around, over or underneath...
I wouldn't throw away the chance to change your identity as a person with fun you and your family,friends will never forget based on a forum.
I think most pilots have loved aviation since being children etc so if thats the case i think the only regret you may have in say 5 years time if you quit now is that you quit.
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PPRuNe is like the Daily Mail of the Aviation Industry, you'll find a lot of whinging, moaning and rose tinted discussions of the good old days. Heck, the good old days were probably great, but don't be disillusioned by it.
There are some great members on here, and some great advice to be gleaned.
However once you're up at 2000ft pottering around, thats when its all worth it.
I've never had hassle with any form of Air Traffic Control, in fact quite the opposite. I haven't found any problems with the JAA or EASA situation, but then I've never known anything different. I've never come across any professional pilots who have looked down upon me in my flying, but have come across many who still fly GA and have some great experience to give (and few others who have struggled to fly a SEP having not flown one in years).
The acronyms will come with time, once you've got your head stuck into the books, most of them will make sense. Sometimes you'll find people on here who rarely fly, or even have lapsed licenses who get on their high horse and tell the rest of the world how it should be done, well just ignore them.
There is another forum related to a popular aviation magazine, which is a lot more biased towards the Private Pilot and you may find it a bit more accomodating to your needs.
There are some great members on here, and some great advice to be gleaned.
However once you're up at 2000ft pottering around, thats when its all worth it.
I've never had hassle with any form of Air Traffic Control, in fact quite the opposite. I haven't found any problems with the JAA or EASA situation, but then I've never known anything different. I've never come across any professional pilots who have looked down upon me in my flying, but have come across many who still fly GA and have some great experience to give (and few others who have struggled to fly a SEP having not flown one in years).
The acronyms will come with time, once you've got your head stuck into the books, most of them will make sense. Sometimes you'll find people on here who rarely fly, or even have lapsed licenses who get on their high horse and tell the rest of the world how it should be done, well just ignore them.
There is another forum related to a popular aviation magazine, which is a lot more biased towards the Private Pilot and you may find it a bit more accomodating to your needs.
You will find that most pilots are absurdly conservative and tame, and for them a trip across the Channel to Calais is the equivalent of an epic adventure. However, any pilot with a bit of get-up-and-go will soon find that you can do rather more than this. I flew down from Rotterdam to Tunisia to tour the desert a bit this summer, and when I was planning it was told I was crazy; by a pilot who I am fairly sure had never flown more than 50 miles from base!
If you ignore the more cowardly and pessimistic lot, you'll find that there is still a huge amount of potential for fun with GA. I've flown coast to coast across the USA, flown through Europe to Africa, and all of it VFR and with very little hassle. In 500+ hours, I have only been delayed by weather a handful of time.
If you ignore the more cowardly and pessimistic lot, you'll find that there is still a huge amount of potential for fun with GA. I've flown coast to coast across the USA, flown through Europe to Africa, and all of it VFR and with very little hassle. In 500+ hours, I have only been delayed by weather a handful of time.
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It was announced today that EASA have made major regulatory changes.
The commissioner recognised that the industry is choked with excess expensive regulations. The Commissioner said that as their mandate is safety that will be their guiding force while unclogging the system of all the junk that has so added to the costs of aviation in Europe.
He also announced that EASA had noted the safety benefits of IFR flight and the good record of the IMCR and are modelling the FAA IR to create a European PPL IR for use throughout Europe. It will be a lower airspace IR with certain limitations but reflects the new attitude of EASA in making aviation more user friendly and less expensive while maintaining and improving safety.
DO YOU BELIEVE IN FATHER CHRISTMAS ???
Pace
The commissioner recognised that the industry is choked with excess expensive regulations. The Commissioner said that as their mandate is safety that will be their guiding force while unclogging the system of all the junk that has so added to the costs of aviation in Europe.
He also announced that EASA had noted the safety benefits of IFR flight and the good record of the IMCR and are modelling the FAA IR to create a European PPL IR for use throughout Europe. It will be a lower airspace IR with certain limitations but reflects the new attitude of EASA in making aviation more user friendly and less expensive while maintaining and improving safety.
DO YOU BELIEVE IN FATHER CHRISTMAS ???
Pace
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EASA as a regulator is causing no small issues due to being political, bureaucratic and arguably incompetent. This makes life in aviation far more complicated than it needs to be.
However actual flying (as opposed to the admin affecting licences and maintenance) is a procedural activity. At its simplest procedures are following the Pilot's Operating Handbook, reviewing NOTAMs and weather and flying a non radio light aircraft. Many people do this and get a great deal of pleasure from it.
Whatever level of flying you do the key is to learn and follow the relevant procedures, most of which you should become familiar with through your PPL training. After that it depends on whether you want to fly more complex aircraft and gain instrument qualifications.
If you approach flying with an attitude of professionalism you'll get a lot of pleasure from it I'm sure.
Take a look at AOPA as well.
However actual flying (as opposed to the admin affecting licences and maintenance) is a procedural activity. At its simplest procedures are following the Pilot's Operating Handbook, reviewing NOTAMs and weather and flying a non radio light aircraft. Many people do this and get a great deal of pleasure from it.
Whatever level of flying you do the key is to learn and follow the relevant procedures, most of which you should become familiar with through your PPL training. After that it depends on whether you want to fly more complex aircraft and gain instrument qualifications.
If you approach flying with an attitude of professionalism you'll get a lot of pleasure from it I'm sure.
Take a look at AOPA as well.
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Charlie,
PPRUNE is an enigma. Aviation folk are generally the most amiable, sociable and positive can-do individuals you'll meet compared to any other endeavour, and yet pproon can give such an opposite impression.
You'll soon realise that many private pilots are ATCOs and airline pilots as well any other walk of life and realise that much of the negative stuff you read here is almost entirely subjective.
For an idea of how to go somewhere in a GA aircraft I suggest you read Peter 2000. I suspect he is one of the regulars.
PPRUNE is an enigma. Aviation folk are generally the most amiable, sociable and positive can-do individuals you'll meet compared to any other endeavour, and yet pproon can give such an opposite impression.
You'll soon realise that many private pilots are ATCOs and airline pilots as well any other walk of life and realise that much of the negative stuff you read here is almost entirely subjective.
For an idea of how to go somewhere in a GA aircraft I suggest you read Peter 2000. I suspect he is one of the regulars.
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There is a lot of negativity in pilot forums, but that is just a reflection of flying being a fair bit of hassle on the ground.
Once you get airborne, it is wonderful
And there are various ways to minimise or eliminate the hassle.
Flying just happens to be a grotesquely over-regulated (relative to the 3rd party risk) activity...
Once you get airborne, it is wonderful
And there are various ways to minimise or eliminate the hassle.
Flying just happens to be a grotesquely over-regulated (relative to the 3rd party risk) activity...
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Also, I think you find that the forum is just that, a forum for airing views. As such you shouldn't think it is a good representation of the actual activity we're discussing i.e. leisure flying.
For example, it's not often anyone writes about the sheer pleasure of actually being up there and viewing the world from on high - revelling in the sense of freedom that it gives you. That's because most of that is taken for granted, so it's mostly the unusual, the annoying and the worrying things that get talked about.
For example, it's not often anyone writes about the sheer pleasure of actually being up there and viewing the world from on high - revelling in the sense of freedom that it gives you. That's because most of that is taken for granted, so it's mostly the unusual, the annoying and the worrying things that get talked about.
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revelling in the sense of freedom that it gives you.
I'll just add one of those "magical, but boring" stories here. Regular readers feel free to skip to the next post...
Last Saturday my license renewal finally fell on the doormat, making me legal again - the CAA must've been busy 'cause it took them a month to process. And I needed a clubcheck anyway, so I booked the R2160 and an instructor for an hours lesson. The forecast was a foggy morning, lifting about noon. The aircraft was booked 13-15. A quick check of the NOTAMs showed nothing important, a flight plan was filed and I headed for the airport.
I got to the airport around 12 and noticed that a kind soul had already put the aircraft in the heated hangar, and the snow was rapidly melting away from the wings and fuselage. After some hellos and a cup of coffee I went to see the aircraft. It had recently gotten a new interior which had to be admired. And as much as I like a heated hangar, it's still quicker to remove the snow than to wait for it to melt. So I wiped the nearly-thawed snow off the wings, shoved it out of the hangar, closed the doors again and went back for another cup of coffee.
At one the fog was indeed lifting. Not quite CAVOK yet, but good enough for VFR flight. So we strapped in, refueled and took off in BKN020 conditions. The view at 1000' is stunning. 30 kilometers visibility. White as far as the eye can see, with all rivers and highways clearly visible.
We first head to the low-flying area for a PFL, after that to the practice area for a steep turn and a stall. I'm an aerobatics pilot and this instructor was not, so he was kind of surprised at my 75 degrees bank angle in the steep turn. 45 degrees would have been sufficient for him. And a stall with the stick to the back stops, keeping the aircraft straight with the rudder for 10 seconds, was something he didn't do too often too. "Oh, yeah, you fly aerobatics a lot, do you? Do you want to do some of them now too?" Of course. So we climbed to FL45 in what had become CAVOK conditions and I showed the instructor a loop, spin, half cuban, reverse half cuban, a barrel roll and a hesitation roll. Who said instructors are not supposed to like their jobs?
"What's next?" Well, it's been a while since I've flown on instruments, so give me some foggles and we'll see how this goes. Bad idea of course, since the AI had toppled multiple times during the aeros and was now slowly regaining the correct attitude. And the DI was out by 180 degrees too. But after we got that sorted I put on the foggles and start concentrating on keeping the dot on the line. First some S&L flight, descending, climbing, turning, climbing/descending turns, intercept a radial and then vectors to downwind. Flaps down, reduce power, downwind checks, all on instruments. End of downwind, pull the foggles off, turn to final and make a very nice landing. We vacate the runway via the only intersection that was plowed, and taxi onto our clubs apron through 10 cm of snow. Magical.
Later on we heard that Schiphol once again had to bring in 100s of beds for stranded travellers, runways had to be closed so that intersections could be cleared of snow and that it would take a long time before air travel would be back to normal.
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Flying is huge fun
On a PPL you can tour most of Europe for fun. (and I have)
If you want you can avoid 85% of the rubbish EASA produce. (and I do)
It need not be ½ as expensive as you might think. J
There can be a very good social side to it.
Contrary to what you may have read on this forum, there are actually more places to land, and more people involved in “enthusiast” GA than at any time since I started back in 1984.
Rod1
PM me if you want a chat
On a PPL you can tour most of Europe for fun. (and I have)
If you want you can avoid 85% of the rubbish EASA produce. (and I do)
It need not be ½ as expensive as you might think. J
There can be a very good social side to it.
Contrary to what you may have read on this forum, there are actually more places to land, and more people involved in “enthusiast” GA than at any time since I started back in 1984.
Rod1
PM me if you want a chat
Are you all trying to warn off mere mortals before we get out of our depth?
For inspiration in flying go to a flying club; this is just a soapbox, compare it with Hyde Pk!
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Costs
To put a broader perspective on costs.
When people hear I fly they reckon I must be really wealthy.
Totally incorrect.
I sailed a lot,38 feet ketch,around most of Northern France,Belgium and Holland,expensive but not crippling.
I raced cars for ten years,horrendously expensive,even in my little sphere £500 per weekend and on top of that something quite expensive often broke.
Flying is the cheapest hobby I've ever had.
So don't be too despondent,there are some really nice people flying,try your local airstrip,LFA group etc.
Good luck and look on the bright side of life.
Lister
When people hear I fly they reckon I must be really wealthy.
Totally incorrect.
I sailed a lot,38 feet ketch,around most of Northern France,Belgium and Holland,expensive but not crippling.
I raced cars for ten years,horrendously expensive,even in my little sphere £500 per weekend and on top of that something quite expensive often broke.
Flying is the cheapest hobby I've ever had.
So don't be too despondent,there are some really nice people flying,try your local airstrip,LFA group etc.
Good luck and look on the bright side of life.
Lister
Its Not That bad !!!
Charlie Delta
There is a lot of "fun flying" out there but probably outside of a club (although not always).
Small groups and friendly strips are out there (if you know where to look) but the "club thing" is training orientated and therefore has to follow the system that is imposed on them by the CAA, EASA, and the airfield where they are based.
Once out of the training mode you can get around to find out what people are doing to stay flying and enjoying it.(the LAA is a good start)
So its not all doom and gloom, rather more about making an effort to see how you can get the best out of whats available.
More effort in more fun out !!!
Good luck.
There is a lot of "fun flying" out there but probably outside of a club (although not always).
Small groups and friendly strips are out there (if you know where to look) but the "club thing" is training orientated and therefore has to follow the system that is imposed on them by the CAA, EASA, and the airfield where they are based.
Once out of the training mode you can get around to find out what people are doing to stay flying and enjoying it.(the LAA is a good start)
So its not all doom and gloom, rather more about making an effort to see how you can get the best out of whats available.
More effort in more fun out !!!
Good luck.
Last edited by POBJOY; 23rd Dec 2010 at 17:38.
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But, what do I find? Looking at this forum, I'm beginning to think that I'm doomed to be surrounded by conflict and disdain....
Ever since I've learnt to fly I've not looked back. It is an excellent mode of transport. If you've felt depressed after viewing these forums try looking at videos on flying on other sites.
Some of the issues that are discussed in these forums are important. The essence is that pilots want to continue flying safely and economically without limitations on accessing airports and airspace.
The sad thing is that there is a lot of over-regulation, over-taxation (particularly in Europe), and resistance to the activity often perpetuated by individuals on the ground who have absolutely no idea of what flying is all about and how fun it can be.
I would encourage you to keep flying and to really enjoy it.
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Are you all trying to warn off mere mortals before we get out of our depth?
However this is expensive and the weather doesn't always suit, so we can't always be flying. When they can't actually fly, many pilots like to chat about flying. For some the "chatting" takes the form of "whining".
There are a couple of things we do warn people off though:
(1) Do Not Pay Up Front.
(2) Don't imagine that the day after getting your PPL you will be able to reliably fly yourself to business meetings etc.
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Actually CDUK your post has brought out the best in contributors and many of the posters that have given their views are well respected 'movers and shakers' of the scene. And give sage guidance.
And I have to agree there is some fun to be had and good times ahead. It's just not going to be like it was.
For you, that doesn't matter as you will react to each new step along the way as we did when starting out last century
Two thoughts from my perspective. I saw many PPL's give up because they continued to rent flying club trainers or tourers after getting a licence. I likened it to renting a car from Avis every weekend.
No, you need to move towards ownership as a way of reducing hourly costs. There are a/c you can chuck £20 of fuel into and have an hours fun with. Also group or syndicate ownership defrays the cost and puts you in touch with potential fly buddies too.
Secondly, 30 to 50 hours flying a year is quite some time when you add up time spent prepping and then jawing after. So pick the days when the wx is OK. I had plenty of frights trying to fly on a certain day in iffy weather because I'd promised someone a ride. No, come back another day.
I warm to enthusiasm and hope that all the replies have fired you up. Be a pal and keep us all informed how you get on.
Blue skies
Sir George Cayley
And I have to agree there is some fun to be had and good times ahead. It's just not going to be like it was.
For you, that doesn't matter as you will react to each new step along the way as we did when starting out last century
Two thoughts from my perspective. I saw many PPL's give up because they continued to rent flying club trainers or tourers after getting a licence. I likened it to renting a car from Avis every weekend.
No, you need to move towards ownership as a way of reducing hourly costs. There are a/c you can chuck £20 of fuel into and have an hours fun with. Also group or syndicate ownership defrays the cost and puts you in touch with potential fly buddies too.
Secondly, 30 to 50 hours flying a year is quite some time when you add up time spent prepping and then jawing after. So pick the days when the wx is OK. I had plenty of frights trying to fly on a certain day in iffy weather because I'd promised someone a ride. No, come back another day.
I warm to enthusiasm and hope that all the replies have fired you up. Be a pal and keep us all informed how you get on.
Blue skies
Sir George Cayley
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Thanks everyone. I'm not giving up - I hate giving up anything. I guess I just need to accrue some more time in the air so that I can put what I read into context. I'm at the stage of doing circuits prior to first solo, so that should be a rewarding experience
This winter weather means too much time reading and not enough time doing
This winter weather means too much time reading and not enough time doing
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I fly around 20-25 hrs a year,just bimbling around East Anglia and that suits me well.
So if you join a group after you get your licence, you could fly those sort of hours really cost effectively.
So if you join a group after you get your licence, you could fly those sort of hours really cost effectively.