Owning an Aircraft
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Owning an Aircraft
Now, I'm only 23 years old, but I definitely know the cost of a dollar especially since I've been working already for 9 years of my life so far. Cars are expensive, boats are expensive, heck, having a wife and kids are expensive (that I know, but not dealing with haha). But good lord, aircraft are expensive.
Looking up for airframes I'm interested in (Commander), ones from mid 1970's are still selling for 80ish, and newer (2000) for 250. How do you afford something like this with a home mortgage/loan, car, and family without being a millionaire?!
I'm curious for statistical purposes and my own interest:
1) How much do you who own aircraft make on avg? (It's cool if you don't want to give that figure for safety purposes).
2) On average, how long do most owners keep their plane for?
I understand a plane is an investment and should be treated as such, with care and safety of course. But with a 20 year loan on 250k at 5.0% you're still looking over 1,000 per month for payments. I make decent money for my age especially being in the military, but that's waaaaaaay beyond my means. Of course I know I don't HAVE to get a Commander because they are top-end aircraft and I could go for Cessna or Piper even. I just want to fly MY plane after I receive my PPL.
Just looking for a little insight from all of you folks, any tips/hints and info provided is greatly appreciated!
- Chris
Looking up for airframes I'm interested in (Commander), ones from mid 1970's are still selling for 80ish, and newer (2000) for 250. How do you afford something like this with a home mortgage/loan, car, and family without being a millionaire?!
I'm curious for statistical purposes and my own interest:
1) How much do you who own aircraft make on avg? (It's cool if you don't want to give that figure for safety purposes).
2) On average, how long do most owners keep their plane for?
I understand a plane is an investment and should be treated as such, with care and safety of course. But with a 20 year loan on 250k at 5.0% you're still looking over 1,000 per month for payments. I make decent money for my age especially being in the military, but that's waaaaaaay beyond my means. Of course I know I don't HAVE to get a Commander because they are top-end aircraft and I could go for Cessna or Piper even. I just want to fly MY plane after I receive my PPL.
Just looking for a little insight from all of you folks, any tips/hints and info provided is greatly appreciated!
- Chris
Moderator
I bought my 1975 Cessna 150 M in 1987 for $7000. Since then, while maintianing it to a high standard, and flying 2600 hours on it, it's probably appreciated to be worth three to four times what I paid for it. What a super investment, I wish I'd bought a few at that time!
I fly a Commander 114 occasionally, nice plane - I'm glad I'm not paying the bills though!
I fly a Commander 114 occasionally, nice plane - I'm glad I'm not paying the bills though!
For a decent aircraft, you really don't need to spend that sort of money - older types, anything with fixed gear, "experimental" types will all give you far more affordable flying.
Wherever you are right now, there's probably a branch of the EAA - Experimental Aircraft Association (or an equivalent non-US organisation such as the LAA). Go and join them, and learn about their fleet and way of flying.
Even if you are determined to have a 4-seat, variable pitch prop, retractable gear high performance tourer (although that's a lot more aeroplane than most people really need - I did my CPL in such a beast, but certainly don't pay my own money to fly such beasts very often), an early model Arrow will give you slightly less performance for much less money. But for a little less performance again, but a heck of a lot less money something like a Grumman AA5, or Cessna 172 will get you there - or think sideways to something that doesn't cost too much but has lots of performance and style, such as a LongEze.
Personally, I tend to share my aeroplanes - but that to an extent is a British habit, and certainly would be a problem for you if in a military career you are moving around a lot. However, you can also do worse than go and ask at the nearest Air Force Base (I assume you're in the US military?) and ask about whether there's a base flying club that may give you cheap flying in some reasonable aeroplanes. There is after all some truth in the old truism that if it flies, floats of f***s it's usually cheaper in the long run to rent by the hour!
My favourite aeroplane has adequate performance, 4 seats, good payload - and was very much the province of very wealthy businessmen. In 1947. Now it's quite cheap, and carries loads more airfield-cred than turning up somewhere in a newer and more expensive Commander would.
G
Wherever you are right now, there's probably a branch of the EAA - Experimental Aircraft Association (or an equivalent non-US organisation such as the LAA). Go and join them, and learn about their fleet and way of flying.
Even if you are determined to have a 4-seat, variable pitch prop, retractable gear high performance tourer (although that's a lot more aeroplane than most people really need - I did my CPL in such a beast, but certainly don't pay my own money to fly such beasts very often), an early model Arrow will give you slightly less performance for much less money. But for a little less performance again, but a heck of a lot less money something like a Grumman AA5, or Cessna 172 will get you there - or think sideways to something that doesn't cost too much but has lots of performance and style, such as a LongEze.
Personally, I tend to share my aeroplanes - but that to an extent is a British habit, and certainly would be a problem for you if in a military career you are moving around a lot. However, you can also do worse than go and ask at the nearest Air Force Base (I assume you're in the US military?) and ask about whether there's a base flying club that may give you cheap flying in some reasonable aeroplanes. There is after all some truth in the old truism that if it flies, floats of f***s it's usually cheaper in the long run to rent by the hour!
My favourite aeroplane has adequate performance, 4 seats, good payload - and was very much the province of very wealthy businessmen. In 1947. Now it's quite cheap, and carries loads more airfield-cred than turning up somewhere in a newer and more expensive Commander would.
G
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There are three different issues wrapped up in the same issue of aircraft ownership;
Capital outlay in buying an aircraft
Fixed running costs (parking, fuel, scheduled maintenance, insurance, periodic renewals of paint, interior, avionics and engine)
Contingency funds
In the case of Rockwell Commanders, as with nearly all of the "old technology" 30 year old C of A fleet, there seems to be quite a hefty re-adjustment in prices going on - driven to a great extent by the widespread availability of second-hand Cirrus's (Cirrii?) at reasonable figures. On planecheck there are currently several nicely equipped G1 and G2 SR22's that could be bought circa £100-120k, which is making a nonsense of the price structure of the 30-40 year old spam can market. (I speak as a PA32 owner, a dyed in the wool spam-can driver).
If you do a search of this forum, you'll find any number of threads running on the subject of the annual costs of maintaining an aircraft, cost of depreciation, the trade-offs made between owning say a new Piper Arrow and a 30 year old Piper Arrow, and LAA aircraft on an LAA permit to fly verses an IFR equipped old technology spam-can on a C of A. Suffice to say that with say, a Piper Arrow flown for 200 hrs P/A based at an airfield around the M25 you can reckon on the following rough figures;
Parking £2,000 p/a
Fuel (40 lph @ £1.70pl = £68 x 200) £13,600 p/a
Annual + 2x50hr & 1x150hr check £4,000 p/a
Engine fund (£7.50 p/h x 200) £1,500 p/a
Insurance £2,400 p/a
Total for the year £23,500 p/a
Cost per hour £117.5 p/h
On top of that you will have to have a contingency fund; that is to say that in aviaition, when things go wrong, they tend to be expensive. Even though that 500 hr engine has run like a swiss watch, it may start making metal tomorrow, and need replacing. Your annual inspection might reveal spar corrosion, which will necessitate a replacement wing. A factory A/D may result in all your seatbelts being replaced.
Similarly, we seem to be living in troubled times vis-a-vis legislation. If suddenly an item be comes mandated (like we were all told Mode-s was about to be mandated) you will have to dig into your pocket. If 100LL gets replaced by something different, you may have to overhaul your engine in order to allow it to run on fuel without tetra-ethyl lead. You need to have the ability to write a cheque for £20,000; sod's law says that if you have that ability, the chances are your bluff won't get called - if you don't, it will invariably be the next call you get!
Having said all of that, if you don't actually need that Rockwell/Piper/Cessna/Beechcraft spam-can, and will consider a new generation LAA 2 seater, the picture is entirely different.
Rod will be along in a minute with the figures....!
Capital outlay in buying an aircraft
Fixed running costs (parking, fuel, scheduled maintenance, insurance, periodic renewals of paint, interior, avionics and engine)
Contingency funds
In the case of Rockwell Commanders, as with nearly all of the "old technology" 30 year old C of A fleet, there seems to be quite a hefty re-adjustment in prices going on - driven to a great extent by the widespread availability of second-hand Cirrus's (Cirrii?) at reasonable figures. On planecheck there are currently several nicely equipped G1 and G2 SR22's that could be bought circa £100-120k, which is making a nonsense of the price structure of the 30-40 year old spam can market. (I speak as a PA32 owner, a dyed in the wool spam-can driver).
If you do a search of this forum, you'll find any number of threads running on the subject of the annual costs of maintaining an aircraft, cost of depreciation, the trade-offs made between owning say a new Piper Arrow and a 30 year old Piper Arrow, and LAA aircraft on an LAA permit to fly verses an IFR equipped old technology spam-can on a C of A. Suffice to say that with say, a Piper Arrow flown for 200 hrs P/A based at an airfield around the M25 you can reckon on the following rough figures;
Parking £2,000 p/a
Fuel (40 lph @ £1.70pl = £68 x 200) £13,600 p/a
Annual + 2x50hr & 1x150hr check £4,000 p/a
Engine fund (£7.50 p/h x 200) £1,500 p/a
Insurance £2,400 p/a
Total for the year £23,500 p/a
Cost per hour £117.5 p/h
On top of that you will have to have a contingency fund; that is to say that in aviaition, when things go wrong, they tend to be expensive. Even though that 500 hr engine has run like a swiss watch, it may start making metal tomorrow, and need replacing. Your annual inspection might reveal spar corrosion, which will necessitate a replacement wing. A factory A/D may result in all your seatbelts being replaced.
Similarly, we seem to be living in troubled times vis-a-vis legislation. If suddenly an item be comes mandated (like we were all told Mode-s was about to be mandated) you will have to dig into your pocket. If 100LL gets replaced by something different, you may have to overhaul your engine in order to allow it to run on fuel without tetra-ethyl lead. You need to have the ability to write a cheque for £20,000; sod's law says that if you have that ability, the chances are your bluff won't get called - if you don't, it will invariably be the next call you get!
Having said all of that, if you don't actually need that Rockwell/Piper/Cessna/Beechcraft spam-can, and will consider a new generation LAA 2 seater, the picture is entirely different.
Rod will be along in a minute with the figures....!
I just happen to be looking at the implications of the new VAT rate on the costs of operating our old(er) LAA 2 seater which is hangared.
Based on wsmempson's model at 200 hours per annum it works out at £65 per hour before the VAT increase. Anyone want to buy a share?
Based on wsmempson's model at 200 hours per annum it works out at £65 per hour before the VAT increase. Anyone want to buy a share?
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Chris
You need to have a very clear idea of the “mission” you wish you’re a/c to perform before you can have a meaningful discussion on costs. If you are looking to tour Europe two up then a modern “LAA VLA” is one option;
Typical cost £50k (low hour less than 5 years old)
Parking (depends on location)
Insurance 1000pa
Maintenance £500pa
Fuel for 200h at 18.5lph of mogas £4440
Another option would be a traditional LAA type like a Jodel, still capable of touring Europe, but not as fast and a much older airframe;
Typical cost £15k
Hangarage (depends on location)
Insurance £600pa
Maintenance £1000pa
Fuel 200h at 21lph of mogas £5000
Or if you are happy with a single seater;
Typical cost £6k
Hangarage (depends on location)
Insurance £300
Maintenance £500
Fuel 200h at 12lph of mogas £2900
You will notice that all the costings have fuel as the largest cost!
Rod1
You need to have a very clear idea of the “mission” you wish you’re a/c to perform before you can have a meaningful discussion on costs. If you are looking to tour Europe two up then a modern “LAA VLA” is one option;
Typical cost £50k (low hour less than 5 years old)
Parking (depends on location)
Insurance 1000pa
Maintenance £500pa
Fuel for 200h at 18.5lph of mogas £4440
Another option would be a traditional LAA type like a Jodel, still capable of touring Europe, but not as fast and a much older airframe;
Typical cost £15k
Hangarage (depends on location)
Insurance £600pa
Maintenance £1000pa
Fuel 200h at 21lph of mogas £5000
Or if you are happy with a single seater;
Typical cost £6k
Hangarage (depends on location)
Insurance £300
Maintenance £500
Fuel 200h at 12lph of mogas £2900
You will notice that all the costings have fuel as the largest cost!
Rod1
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QUOTE "Those wsmempson ownership numbers are ginormous"
Silvaire, unfortunately, welcome to the world of UK GA running costs. Running a C of A machine is expensive here. You could trim some of those back by being based at a strip further away from London or doing some of the maintenance yourself, but the way that Part M subpart g maintenance has been imposed means that generally, you end up paying sooner or later!
Silvaire, unfortunately, welcome to the world of UK GA running costs. Running a C of A machine is expensive here. You could trim some of those back by being based at a strip further away from London or doing some of the maintenance yourself, but the way that Part M subpart g maintenance has been imposed means that generally, you end up paying sooner or later!
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The OP is in Puerto Rico.
Hangarage in the UK can easily cost £7k ($10k) per year, for a 10m wingspan SE plane.
It's not cheap but flying is worth every penny
When you are on your deathbed, will you be wishing you spent less money on something you enjoyed so much? I discovered recently that a pilot I knew died, of cancer. He just stopped answering emails, and that was it.
Hangarage in the UK can easily cost £7k ($10k) per year, for a 10m wingspan SE plane.
It's not cheap but flying is worth every penny
When you are on your deathbed, will you be wishing you spent less money on something you enjoyed so much? I discovered recently that a pilot I knew died, of cancer. He just stopped answering emails, and that was it.
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Try to be realistic……..
Chris,
I am an LSA owner in Latin America.
I bought my first aircraft (Genesis) for $20.000,- with a Rotax 912 (80 HP) with 600 hours on it. The airframe was then 10 years old.
Slipstream Genesis, Slipstream Industries Genesis, Genesis light sport aircraft and two place ultralight.
However I am now upgrading to a brand new MXP 150 Patriot, with glass cockpit (Dynon Skyview) and a 100 HP Rotax 912.
Patriot
Brilliant! But $75.000,-, all included!!
What you have to remember is the majority of aircraft owners are people that are "established"--> with the basics of education, house and vehicles all taken care of, before they proceed into private aviation.
The monthly salary is really not that relevant, it mainly depends on where you live and how you are dealing and you have been dealing with your finances.
I for one……..won´t have children--> the Patriot is my baby!!!
I earn okay, but a large part of my salary goes to aviation--> these are my priorities.
You´ll find that there is a plane for almost each budget as long as you´re committed……..but you have to ask yourself "why a Commander"?
Buying the plane is 1 thing, maintaining and / or running the thing is another!! 10 Gallons per hour……….you do the math!!
I fly around my whole country, at 4 gallons an hour at 200 km/ hour; I fly over the highest volcanoes while listening to my I-pod and enjoying a comfortable wide 2 pax cabin with luggage space in the back--> with a 5 hour fuel range.
What do you want??
###Ultra Long Hauler###
I am an LSA owner in Latin America.
I bought my first aircraft (Genesis) for $20.000,- with a Rotax 912 (80 HP) with 600 hours on it. The airframe was then 10 years old.
Slipstream Genesis, Slipstream Industries Genesis, Genesis light sport aircraft and two place ultralight.
However I am now upgrading to a brand new MXP 150 Patriot, with glass cockpit (Dynon Skyview) and a 100 HP Rotax 912.
Patriot
Brilliant! But $75.000,-, all included!!
What you have to remember is the majority of aircraft owners are people that are "established"--> with the basics of education, house and vehicles all taken care of, before they proceed into private aviation.
The monthly salary is really not that relevant, it mainly depends on where you live and how you are dealing and you have been dealing with your finances.
I for one……..won´t have children--> the Patriot is my baby!!!
I earn okay, but a large part of my salary goes to aviation--> these are my priorities.
You´ll find that there is a plane for almost each budget as long as you´re committed……..but you have to ask yourself "why a Commander"?
Buying the plane is 1 thing, maintaining and / or running the thing is another!! 10 Gallons per hour……….you do the math!!
I fly around my whole country, at 4 gallons an hour at 200 km/ hour; I fly over the highest volcanoes while listening to my I-pod and enjoying a comfortable wide 2 pax cabin with luggage space in the back--> with a 5 hour fuel range.
What do you want??
###Ultra Long Hauler###
There is a common fault in many Brits and Americans that we assume everybody else sees things from our own local viewpoint.
Hence, presumably that several of my fellow Brits have posted figures that don't apply in the USA, nor the US dependency that is Puerto Rico (where our original poster's profile clearly says he's from), and then enthuse all about the benefits of the LAA - which has absolutely no relevance in the USA or Puerto Rico.
I think that we could all do the original poster the courtesy of either answering the question he actually asked, or getting properly and openly sidetracked into some interesting new discussion.
Unless Puerto Rico is a village in Somerset and I'm missing something obvious?
G
Hence, presumably that several of my fellow Brits have posted figures that don't apply in the USA, nor the US dependency that is Puerto Rico (where our original poster's profile clearly says he's from), and then enthuse all about the benefits of the LAA - which has absolutely no relevance in the USA or Puerto Rico.
I think that we could all do the original poster the courtesy of either answering the question he actually asked, or getting properly and openly sidetracked into some interesting new discussion.
Unless Puerto Rico is a village in Somerset and I'm missing something obvious?
G
the benefits of the LAA - which has absolutely no relevance in the USA or Puerto Rico
-) fuel cost the main expense in private flying
-)10 gal./hr vs 4 gal./hr
No relevance?
Yes I know one gets a lot more of aircraft burning 10 gallons per hour - but to someone with budgetary concerns the difference might be an important point, even decisive.
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Fuel cost is the biggest expense these days, by a big margin. At economy low altitude cruise (3000ft, 138kt IAS) I burn 11.2 USG/hr (42.3 litres/hr). At economy high altitude cruise (FL100, 140kt TAS) I burn 9.6 USG/hr (36.3 litres/hr).
Even the lower of the two above dwarfs the cost of servicing, the engine fund, etc. But that would not be the case if I flew an old wreck with a similar capability and performance, when £10000 Annuals are quite common.
The cost of depreciation is likely to be bigger still, but (together with cost of capital) the way this is accounted for, or indeed whether a private individual doing this for enjoyment should be accounting for these, varies greatly.
No doubt, nothing will beat a cheap little plane which uses little fuel But none of those types have much capability. They are OK for bimbling around on nice days, not going far. If you want to do more, you have various tradeoffs open to you, but it will cost you more.
Even the lower of the two above dwarfs the cost of servicing, the engine fund, etc. But that would not be the case if I flew an old wreck with a similar capability and performance, when £10000 Annuals are quite common.
The cost of depreciation is likely to be bigger still, but (together with cost of capital) the way this is accounted for, or indeed whether a private individual doing this for enjoyment should be accounting for these, varies greatly.
No doubt, nothing will beat a cheap little plane which uses little fuel
But none of those types have much capability. They are OK for bimbling around on nice days, not going far. If you want to do more, you have various tradeoffs open to you, but it will cost you more.
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What about things like the dynaero mcr-01
It has a relatively good fuel economy, based around a rotax engine. It cruises at something like 145knots, and I believe its somewhere around 60,000euro new. (but I could be wrong)
Am I missing something? Doesn't this come under the LSA rating in the US?
It has a relatively good fuel economy, based around a rotax engine. It cruises at something like 145knots, and I believe its somewhere around 60,000euro new. (but I could be wrong)
Am I missing something? Doesn't this come under the LSA rating in the US?
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“But none of those types have much capability. They are OK for bimbling around on nice days, not going far. If you want to do more, you have various tradeoffs open to you, but it will cost you more.”
IO and I would obviously disagree on this on! In the UK we do have an artificial limitation on LAA machines limiting them to day VFR. In the US aircraft like the MCR-01 mentioned above (I have one) are flown IFR, but I have no idea of the local rules in your area. Faced with flying in IMC in my state of the art permit machine, in comparison with the aircraft I used to fly, I know what I would choose, but I do not make the rules!
The sort of local bumbling I do is midlands to Wick (north of Scotland) in 3 hours, or midlands to south of France in 4.5 (with a stop to clear customs). I tour France for a week two up most years, sometimes Spain etc as well. But I only fly for fun, and tend to attend big flyins with an emphasis on enthusiasts and interesting aircraft. I like 99% of European PPL’s, do not have an IR, but I do have a UK ½ way house which is not valid outside the UK.
Rod1
IO and I would obviously disagree on this on! In the UK we do have an artificial limitation on LAA machines limiting them to day VFR. In the US aircraft like the MCR-01 mentioned above (I have one) are flown IFR, but I have no idea of the local rules in your area. Faced with flying in IMC in my state of the art permit machine, in comparison with the aircraft I used to fly, I know what I would choose, but I do not make the rules!
The sort of local bumbling I do is midlands to Wick (north of Scotland) in 3 hours, or midlands to south of France in 4.5 (with a stop to clear customs). I tour France for a week two up most years, sometimes Spain etc as well. But I only fly for fun, and tend to attend big flyins with an emphasis on enthusiasts and interesting aircraft. I like 99% of European PPL’s, do not have an IR, but I do have a UK ½ way house which is not valid outside the UK.
Rod1
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In the UK we do have an artificial limitation on LAA machines limiting them to day VFR.
I would also insist on a double-heater pitot tube, because some recent history of "weight reduction while airborne but not through burning fuel" has shown that some of the Vne figures are, shall we say, a little on the high side
or midlands to south of France in 4.5 (with a stop to clear customs)
like 99% of European PPL’s, do not have an IR
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Wow, thank you every for such a large number of responses. I didn't think that I would get nearly this many so far, so it is all greatly appreciated. It's also neat to see how things can very from region - region, much less country - country.
I believe if I were to get a plane prior to leaving PR the costs would be much lower, things here (other than food) are rather inexpensive. The fuel costs are about $5.40ish depending on where you fuel up, and I would plan for TJIG (Isla Grande).
Another question that's been pondering me. If 30 year old airframes with 5+ thousand TTAF on the frame are still selling for almost what brand new frames are selling for, is there any more chance of things going wrong with the frame itself (excluding engine and gauges)?
Also, thanks for the additional aircraft mentioned other than the pipers and cessnas, I hadn't heard of many of the others mentioned before
I believe if I were to get a plane prior to leaving PR the costs would be much lower, things here (other than food) are rather inexpensive. The fuel costs are about $5.40ish depending on where you fuel up, and I would plan for TJIG (Isla Grande).
Another question that's been pondering me. If 30 year old airframes with 5+ thousand TTAF on the frame are still selling for almost what brand new frames are selling for, is there any more chance of things going wrong with the frame itself (excluding engine and gauges)?
Also, thanks for the additional aircraft mentioned other than the pipers and cessnas, I hadn't heard of many of the others mentioned before