Owning an Aircraft
So long as the aeroplane you buy is N-registered, I doubt that it'll be significantly better or worse, nor much different in price to what you will get on the US mainland. If you are a US citizen serving in the US military, then I'd strongly recommend sticking to an N-registered aeroplane. If you can get the right aeroplane in PR, then best of luck to you.
Piper and Cessna are the most common light aeroplane types - and just as if you buy a GM or Ford car, you are going to get a reliable product that plenty of people know how to look after. But, just as you're unlikely to regret owning a Jeep or LandRover, you'd also get much satisfaction from owning a Grummman or Scottish Aviation aircraft, so long as that's the right aeroplane for you.
Cost wise, it's pretty unusual for a high year/hour aeroplane to be worth the same as a new one, and I'd look closely at anything being advertised for that sort of money. But there are two factors which can make a big difference. The first is the avionics, which can be a large part of the airframe value so if somebody has put a lot of money into fitting autopilots, stormscopes, glass cockpit systems and suchlike that can put the price up a lot. Nice to have, but even for a lot of touring you don't need it - you do probably want two radios, two VORs, a DME, ADS-B and a GPS - after that it's luxury items. The other very major factor is the engine life remaining: the figures vary between airframes and engines, but an old airframe with a just overhauled engine can look very expensive, whilst a newer airframe with few hours left on the engine has a massive bill coming up and that's reflected in its sale price.
For a comparison, I just set out to buy myself a share in an inexpensive touring aeroplane here in the UK. I ended up with a 25 year old high-hour Grumman AA5a - an American 4-seater that you'll get cheaply over there, as we can here. It'll give me with 2 people on board 6 hours flying at 110 knots (~120mph) at 8-9gph, and has the magic 2 radios, 2 VORs and a DME (plus an autopilot and ILS, I use a personal GPS), and has about 1000hrs before an engine overhaul is due. This came at an equivalent purchase price of about US$32k. I suspect that this is much nearer to what you are hoping for? (This is just one type, but there's owners club info here which you may find interesting.)
G
Piper and Cessna are the most common light aeroplane types - and just as if you buy a GM or Ford car, you are going to get a reliable product that plenty of people know how to look after. But, just as you're unlikely to regret owning a Jeep or LandRover, you'd also get much satisfaction from owning a Grummman or Scottish Aviation aircraft, so long as that's the right aeroplane for you.
Cost wise, it's pretty unusual for a high year/hour aeroplane to be worth the same as a new one, and I'd look closely at anything being advertised for that sort of money. But there are two factors which can make a big difference. The first is the avionics, which can be a large part of the airframe value so if somebody has put a lot of money into fitting autopilots, stormscopes, glass cockpit systems and suchlike that can put the price up a lot. Nice to have, but even for a lot of touring you don't need it - you do probably want two radios, two VORs, a DME, ADS-B and a GPS - after that it's luxury items. The other very major factor is the engine life remaining: the figures vary between airframes and engines, but an old airframe with a just overhauled engine can look very expensive, whilst a newer airframe with few hours left on the engine has a massive bill coming up and that's reflected in its sale price.
For a comparison, I just set out to buy myself a share in an inexpensive touring aeroplane here in the UK. I ended up with a 25 year old high-hour Grumman AA5a - an American 4-seater that you'll get cheaply over there, as we can here. It'll give me with 2 people on board 6 hours flying at 110 knots (~120mph) at 8-9gph, and has the magic 2 radios, 2 VORs and a DME (plus an autopilot and ILS, I use a personal GPS), and has about 1000hrs before an engine overhaul is due. This came at an equivalent purchase price of about US$32k. I suspect that this is much nearer to what you are hoping for? (This is just one type, but there's owners club info here which you may find interesting.)
G
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G, I think you hit the nail on the head with that information and that's exactly what I was looking for. If I could find a relatively good aircraft that's at a decent price without too much maintenance issue but also serves as a mid-range a/c that I could bring a few friend along in every now and then is perfect for me. I understand that the higher priced a/c are like cars with their luxury and whatnot, but if you can find you something that gets from A to B to C with relatively few problems then that will also do the job just right.
Thanks for the insight!
-Chris
Thanks for the insight!
-Chris
Ah yes, that was the other thing.
I really wouldn't worry about the age of the aeroplane - condition is everything, age is almost nothing. The nature of aircraft maintenance is that if an aeroplane has been properly stored and maintained then it really doesn't matter if it is 2, 20, 40 or 60 years old - it should still essentially be just as safe and capable.
Of course, some of the newer aircraft types offer capability that didn't exist in previous years, but on the other hand most of that is about avionics, and new instruments can be fitted at any time in an aircraft's life, whilst available engine life will go up and down as it's serviced or replaced from time to time.
One thing I would worry about however is payload. Forgive me if you know this stuff already (you've not actually said if you're already a qualified pilot or not), but every aeroplane has a maximum take-off weight (MTOW) and an empty weight. The difference between the two is the amount of fuel, people and baggage you can carry - THIS IS NOT NEGOTIABLE ! So, work out the nature of the trips you're likely to want to fly - how far, how many people, and if you'll need to carry baggage. This will be a major factor in determining what the right aeroplane is for you.
There's loads of experience here in this sort of thing, so if you can come back with the sort of numbers that will apply to your flying, there are plenty of people who can recommend the right aeroplane types to look at. As a starting point however, reckon on most of the common 4-seaters having about 700-900lb of useable payload, fuel burn about 8-9 gal/hr (at 6lb/gal) cruising around 100 knots, and fuel tanks somewhere between 35-60 gal total capacity. That'll give you a rough idea of what's normally achievable.
G
I really wouldn't worry about the age of the aeroplane - condition is everything, age is almost nothing. The nature of aircraft maintenance is that if an aeroplane has been properly stored and maintained then it really doesn't matter if it is 2, 20, 40 or 60 years old - it should still essentially be just as safe and capable.
Of course, some of the newer aircraft types offer capability that didn't exist in previous years, but on the other hand most of that is about avionics, and new instruments can be fitted at any time in an aircraft's life, whilst available engine life will go up and down as it's serviced or replaced from time to time.
One thing I would worry about however is payload. Forgive me if you know this stuff already (you've not actually said if you're already a qualified pilot or not), but every aeroplane has a maximum take-off weight (MTOW) and an empty weight. The difference between the two is the amount of fuel, people and baggage you can carry - THIS IS NOT NEGOTIABLE ! So, work out the nature of the trips you're likely to want to fly - how far, how many people, and if you'll need to carry baggage. This will be a major factor in determining what the right aeroplane is for you.
There's loads of experience here in this sort of thing, so if you can come back with the sort of numbers that will apply to your flying, there are plenty of people who can recommend the right aeroplane types to look at. As a starting point however, reckon on most of the common 4-seaters having about 700-900lb of useable payload, fuel burn about 8-9 gal/hr (at 6lb/gal) cruising around 100 knots, and fuel tanks somewhere between 35-60 gal total capacity. That'll give you a rough idea of what's normally achievable.
G
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condition is everything, age is almost nothing
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I'm not a qualified pilot as of yet, but with my job as an Operation Specialist (dealing with Search and Rescue/LE to include Migrants and Drugs) I was at least fairly aware of the need for weight vs. fuel payloads as we always need to ask, say a cruise ship, the weight of a passenger, height, and what the weight of equipment will be loaded into the Dauphin (HH-65) prior to them taking on passengers and possibly dumping fuel to compensate. However that's still great information for those who may have not asked the question yet and are reading the thread 
The note of the age is good to know as well, as long as the airplane is properly stored in a hangar, paint re-done, engine upgrades, etc. etc. (minus the avionics). I would have figured that it would be like cars as well. You could have a 1928 Model T that still runs like a beaut' if the maintenance is kept up.
Silvaire1 - I was looking up the same differences as well and found the same "issue." It was quite odd to be that the later model still sold for more than the latter.
About having 2 radios for Caribbean flying, I'm not quite sure if that would help or hinder. I guess if I was out flying one day I could listen up to the USCG working freq and help out on SAR cases if it permits or if I wouldn't be a burden to the mission. That would be one thing to think about though for the future. Maybe like a Civil Air Patrol or Coast Guard Auxiliary. Speaking of which, the Coast Guard Auxiliary route would help get me hours for my logs as well as pay for fuel for a day out! Something for those on the other side of the pond to think about, though you would have to hold qualifications and do some further training.
IOS - That very point could be a bump in the road for me in purchasing my first plane since I have not had to deal with them before. However, I'm hoping that with adequate research and enough digging + a little bit of patience that I can come up with a plane that will serve me happily for quite a number of years
The note of the age is good to know as well, as long as the airplane is properly stored in a hangar, paint re-done, engine upgrades, etc. etc. (minus the avionics). I would have figured that it would be like cars as well. You could have a 1928 Model T that still runs like a beaut' if the maintenance is kept up.
Silvaire1 - I was looking up the same differences as well and found the same "issue." It was quite odd to be that the later model still sold for more than the latter.
About having 2 radios for Caribbean flying, I'm not quite sure if that would help or hinder. I guess if I was out flying one day I could listen up to the USCG working freq and help out on SAR cases if it permits or if I wouldn't be a burden to the mission. That would be one thing to think about though for the future. Maybe like a Civil Air Patrol or Coast Guard Auxiliary. Speaking of which, the Coast Guard Auxiliary route would help get me hours for my logs as well as pay for fuel for a day out! Something for those on the other side of the pond to think about, though you would have to hold qualifications and do some further training.
IOS - That very point could be a bump in the road for me in purchasing my first plane since I have not had to deal with them before. However, I'm hoping that with adequate research and enough digging + a little bit of patience that I can come up with a plane that will serve me happily for quite a number of years
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'I have never really figured out why the early 150 HP AA5 Traveller is so much cheaper to buy than the AA5A Cheetah...'
To answer the above question...
The main thing that makes the price difference is that Travelers (AA5)built between '74 and 77 had de-bonding issues due to a purple glue being used, nicknamed 'purple passion'. This de-bonding issue usually manifests itself with leaking fuel tanks and can be eye wateringly expensive to put right with the problem tending to re-occur and need re-rectification every few years.
The original late'72/73 Traveler used a vanilla glue that is much better. The manufacturer reverted to the original vanilla glue in mid '77 (Cheetahs(AA5A's). The final AA5A Cheetah was built in '79, so the youngest AA5A is now 31years old.
That is why late AA5A's are worth a premium over some of the early years.
The same de-bonding issues of course applies to AA5B's (180hp Tiger)) built in the '74-'77 years. The AA5B production of course has continued in in fits and starts and in various guises until fairly recently.
To answer the above question...
The main thing that makes the price difference is that Travelers (AA5)built between '74 and 77 had de-bonding issues due to a purple glue being used, nicknamed 'purple passion'. This de-bonding issue usually manifests itself with leaking fuel tanks and can be eye wateringly expensive to put right with the problem tending to re-occur and need re-rectification every few years.
The original late'72/73 Traveler used a vanilla glue that is much better. The manufacturer reverted to the original vanilla glue in mid '77 (Cheetahs(AA5A's). The final AA5A Cheetah was built in '79, so the youngest AA5A is now 31years old.
That is why late AA5A's are worth a premium over some of the early years.
The same de-bonding issues of course applies to AA5B's (180hp Tiger)) built in the '74-'77 years. The AA5B production of course has continued in in fits and starts and in various guises until fairly recently.
hangers
Off-topic linguistic rant:
The word "hanger" can have several meanings, as can be seen from the wikipedia disambiguation page, but none have to do with aircraft storage. My own interpretation of the word isn't there, either, but goes back to Sir Thomas Mallory:
"for my lady Queen Morgan le Fay keepeth you here for none other intent but for to do her pleasure with you when it liked her". "O Jesu defend me, said Alisander, from such pleasure; for I had lever cut away my hangers than I would do her such pleasure".
as long as the airplane is properly stored in a hangar,
"for my lady Queen Morgan le Fay keepeth you here for none other intent but for to do her pleasure with you when it liked her". "O Jesu defend me, said Alisander, from such pleasure; for I had lever cut away my hangers than I would do her such pleasure".
I'm not a qualified pilot as of yet, but with my job as an Operation Specialist (dealing with Search and Rescue/LE to include Migrants and Drugs) I was at least fairly aware of the need for weight vs. fuel payloads as we always need to ask, say a cruise ship, the weight of a passenger, height, and what the weight of equipment will be loaded into the Dauphin (HH-65) prior to them taking on passengers and possibly dumping fuel to compensate. However that's still great information for those who may have not asked the question yet and are reading the thread
The note of the age is good to know as well, as long as the airplane is properly stored in a hangar, paint re-done, engine upgrades, etc. etc. (minus the avionics). I would have figured that it would be like cars as well. You could have a 1928 Model T that still runs like a beaut' if the maintenance is kept up.
Silvaire1 - I was looking up the same differences as well and found the same "issue." It was quite odd to be that the later model still sold for more than the latter.
About having 2 radios for Caribbean flying, I'm not quite sure if that would help or hinder. I guess if I was out flying one day I could listen up to the USCG working freq and help out on SAR cases if it permits or if I wouldn't be a burden to the mission. That would be one thing to think about though for the future. Maybe like a Civil Air Patrol or Coast Guard Auxiliary. Speaking of which, the Coast Guard Auxiliary route would help get me hours for my logs as well as pay for fuel for a day out! Something for those on the other side of the pond to think about, though you would have to hold qualifications and do some further training.
IOS - That very point could be a bump in the road for me in purchasing my first plane since I have not had to deal with them before. However, I'm hoping that with adequate research and enough digging + a little bit of patience that I can come up with a plane that will serve me happily for quite a number of years
The note of the age is good to know as well, as long as the airplane is properly stored in a hangar, paint re-done, engine upgrades, etc. etc. (minus the avionics). I would have figured that it would be like cars as well. You could have a 1928 Model T that still runs like a beaut' if the maintenance is kept up.
Silvaire1 - I was looking up the same differences as well and found the same "issue." It was quite odd to be that the later model still sold for more than the latter.
About having 2 radios for Caribbean flying, I'm not quite sure if that would help or hinder. I guess if I was out flying one day I could listen up to the USCG working freq and help out on SAR cases if it permits or if I wouldn't be a burden to the mission. That would be one thing to think about though for the future. Maybe like a Civil Air Patrol or Coast Guard Auxiliary. Speaking of which, the Coast Guard Auxiliary route would help get me hours for my logs as well as pay for fuel for a day out! Something for those on the other side of the pond to think about, though you would have to hold qualifications and do some further training.
IOS - That very point could be a bump in the road for me in purchasing my first plane since I have not had to deal with them before. However, I'm hoping that with adequate research and enough digging + a little bit of patience that I can come up with a plane that will serve me happily for quite a number of years
Two radios just makes a lot of sense when you're doing any kind of long trips. For example, I may be working a sector frequency on a 100 mile leg, but it's really useful without potentially missing a call from them, to be able to call up an airfield I'm passing and ask for their weather, or listen out to what's happening on my next planned frequency. Plus the redundancy - a long sea crossing is not somewhere you want to be with no radio by and large. Similarly for navigation equipment: there are various systems available (VOR, VOR/DME, GPS, ADF) and which you use is less important than that you've got a backup.
When I fly a sea or mountain crossing, I'll normally have one set on 121.5 - particularly in case I have a problem and can't establish rapid 2-way with my controller, and partly to keep an ear out for anybody under me who might be in trouble and I can act as a communications bridge.
A handheld GPS and radio are particularly useful since they'll survive a complete aircraft electrical failure.
I imagine that the Coast guard will want you to have some reasonable flying experience before you start doing anything for them, above and beyond just being a qualified private pilot. But, everybody starts somewhere and speaking for myself - I work in aviation as an Professional Engineer, my pilots licences have opened up a lot of career opportunities over the years. Not necessarily as a professional pilot, although I eventually did that ticket, but employed in jobs where they wanted the aviation knowledge.
Your next stage is probably to start lessons somewhere - does the local military flying club have any instructors? Keep thinking and listening about aircraft ownership and types as you learn and it'll all probably come together. Even money you'll start on a basic Piper or Cessna - don't worry about which, they're all good training aeroplanes, and once you have your licence you won't struggle to convert to anything you buy: most post war American light aeroplanes have similar cockpits and handling qualities.
G
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CoastieM171 in my view there is no substitute for paying up front for a good engineer’s survey of any aircraft you are planning to purchase. It may seem expensive but it is money well spent. Particularly, if after reading it you decide to walk away from the aircraft and not purchase it.
Reading up on potential aircraft and knowing the common problems and pitfalls is the right thing to do but it will not give you the experience and depth of knowledge of an engineer familiar with the aircraft type who knows where to look and how to interpret what he or she sees. An engineer will also typically inspect the supporting maintenance documents and be able to comment on their adequacy and the impact of current and future regulatory requirements – which is not a trivial issue on this side of the pond.
When you have got your PPL and are serious about a specific aircraft get an engineer to survey it before you decide to put your cash on the table and take the keys.
Stephen
PS
The auxiliary coastguard here in the UK is now known as the Volunteer Coastal Rescue Service (CRS) http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga07-home/emergencyresponse/mcga-searchandrescue/mcga-volunteering.htm The Lifeboat service (RNLI) here is also a volunteer organisation http://www.rnli.org.uk/ The CRS and RNLI are primarily maritime – although the Southend RNLI station does have a hovercraft – for volunteer air support in the UK the coastguard can call on Airsearch http://airsearch.co.uk/ Airsearch are also on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=h#!/group.php?gid=105030399561835
Reading up on potential aircraft and knowing the common problems and pitfalls is the right thing to do but it will not give you the experience and depth of knowledge of an engineer familiar with the aircraft type who knows where to look and how to interpret what he or she sees. An engineer will also typically inspect the supporting maintenance documents and be able to comment on their adequacy and the impact of current and future regulatory requirements – which is not a trivial issue on this side of the pond.
When you have got your PPL and are serious about a specific aircraft get an engineer to survey it before you decide to put your cash on the table and take the keys.
Stephen
PS
The auxiliary coastguard here in the UK is now known as the Volunteer Coastal Rescue Service (CRS) http://www.mcga.gov.uk/c4mca/mcga07-home/emergencyresponse/mcga-searchandrescue/mcga-volunteering.htm The Lifeboat service (RNLI) here is also a volunteer organisation http://www.rnli.org.uk/ The CRS and RNLI are primarily maritime – although the Southend RNLI station does have a hovercraft – for volunteer air support in the UK the coastguard can call on Airsearch http://airsearch.co.uk/ Airsearch are also on Facebook at http://www.facebook.com/home.php?sk=h#!/group.php?gid=105030399561835
Last edited by Stephen Furner; 19th Dec 2010 at 12:29.
One small but important linguistic point. What in the UK is known as a Licenced Engineer, would in the USA normally be known as an airplane mechanic.
The term Engineer is more narrowly used in the USA, mostly only in the graduate branches of the Engineering profession, which is the wrong sort of person (mostly) to do a pre-purchase inspection.
G
The term Engineer is more narrowly used in the USA, mostly only in the graduate branches of the Engineering profession, which is the wrong sort of person (mostly) to do a pre-purchase inspection.
G
