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And the airmanship award goes to, the pilot of (LY AGS)

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And the airmanship award goes to, the pilot of (LY AGS)

Old 10th Oct 2010, 11:15
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Thumbs down And the airmanship award goes to, the pilot of (LY AGS)

Photos: Morane-Saulnier MS-893A Rallye Commodore 180 Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net

1) In a single, in fog!

2) In a spiral dive at 1100ft/min to the left

3) Over a forest at 1100 feet

4) Power at 2500 RPM with speed in the yellow arc!

5) Whilst trying to take a photo...

6) Oh, and his VOR has got nav error flags showing! Lets hope his GPS doesnt fail
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Old 10th Oct 2010, 12:05
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I think he's just pulled out from the dive. AI shows only slight nose down attitude. VSI lags behind.

OTOH height above ground (treetop) looks a lot less than 1100'. Passenger is photographer, I think. Scared photographer, probably.
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Old 10th Oct 2010, 13:07
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The datafields of the GPSMAP 195 do not appear to agree with the values displayed on the 'wet' compass and the nav receiver is 'OFF' - hence the VOR flags. Was he actually talking to anyone on 123.450?

Close to CFIT, I would guess.
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Old 10th Oct 2010, 13:10
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Nav error flags probably because nav receiver switched off :-)
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Old 10th Oct 2010, 14:24
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Funny thing how people have guts to fly so poorly equipped singles (looks like GPS is his primary instrument, no DI/HSI - basically one has to fly partial panel all the time) so low, in such a low visibility and clearly without proper attitude flying skills.
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Old 10th Oct 2010, 21:20
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Since it's a metric altimeter, he is actually at 1,100 metres (around 3,500ft.) But we don't know the terrain height..........
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Old 10th Oct 2010, 21:45
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Oh, and his VOR has got nav error flags showing!
That's because the nav radio is switched off.

5) Whilst trying to take a photo...
Looks like the passenger was taking the pics
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 00:41
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Although this is perhaps a worthwhile exercise in interperting instrument displays, I hardly think that it would be appropriate to jump to the conclusion that the photograph depicts an unsafe, or poor airmanship situation.

The aircraft appears to be in controlled flight, and being flown with visual reference to the ground. As I think that those are the two most important elements of safe VFR flight, so far, so good...

I don't agree that the aircraft is in a sprial dive, as the roll attitude is a relatively small bank angle, and the pitch is about level. It does not appear to me that any limitations are, or are about to be exceeded. Unless there's a radar altimeter display there I'm missing, the altitude over the forest is an unknown, but looks to me like it is adequate, as the pitch attitude is near level. It appears to me that the pilot might be turning away from an area of less good visibility ahead - let's give them the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Single in fog? Perhaps single in the vicinity of fog. I can see the ground in the photo, so I presume the pilot does too. Actually, at the right extreme, it looks like there could be at least a few miles visibility. Perhaps there is where the pilot is turning toward...

And finally, whatever the circumstances of the flight, it is eveident that the objectives of a safe landing were met, as the picture made it to the ground safely!

Perhaps there is more to the relationship between the pilot of the photo, and the poster, which is not presented in the post, which gives rise for the attack on the pilot's judgement. Myself, I do not have enough information from the photo to initiate a negative presentation.

We in the aviation industry, have enough sources of confrontation and disagreement to deal with from outside, do we need to create more within our group?

What we do know is that a Morane Saulnier aircraft went for a flight, the weather conditions were less than ideal, an occupant of the aircraft took a photo, and the photo returned safely to earth, Why make more of it than that? Let's just imagine that another fun flight took place....

On a 1900 mile flight I piloted (That's me flying in the photo to follow, taken by the sole occupant pilot of the other helicopter), I would have been even better equipped in my helicopter, had I had any gyro instruments at all, or a VOR (though there are no VORs to receive anyway!). I maintained safe VFR the whole time, with some turns to maintain visibility as required, and accomplished the flight very happily, with no upset, loss of controlled flight, or loss of visual contact with the ground. And I was given some really great photos of me!

Let's go easy, before we rush to judgement on others of our chosen pastime!

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Old 11th Oct 2010, 05:54
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A metric altimeter has the zero at the 6-o-clock position. Airspeed is too low to be in a spiral dive, as is the bank angle. Not making any comments on the wisdom of this flight.
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 06:26
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Funny thing how people have guts to fly so poorly equipped singles
That makes me smile, when I recall the planes I did my PPL in

I see far worse equipped stuff all the time.

Otherwise I agree with above in that the pic tells us almost nothing. Superficially it looks like he is flying towards some fog and is turning around.
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 09:17
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Funny thing how people have guts to fly so poorly equipped singles
6) Oh, and his VOR has got nav error flags showing! Lets hope his GPS doesnt fail
'OFF flags... luxury!'

The aeroplane I own a share in doesn't even have an electrical system, let alone radio navaids. From the picture alone, no-one really knows enough about the situation or the pilot to condemn the guy.

PickMeFlybe, you did learn visual navigation didn't you? You know, stopwatch, compass, map stuff? (Perhaps you need a tuned VOR and a GPS to stop you getting lost). Your cheap attempt to throw some mud at an unknown pilot on such shaky grounds is a rather ugly bit of ppruning, I have to say. I'm sure Flybe wouldn't want to pick that.
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 09:39
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Could the attitude of PickMeFlybe and others be the result of the culture at some UK flying schools?

Staying to long or listening blindly to what is said at some of those sausage factories will most certainly take away all the fun that GA has to offer.

Nice photo from Pilot DAR.
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 10:52
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Yet another wannabe AAIB report?I could get a picture like that quite easily any day.How can anyone condemn a pilot as some kind of incompetent fool based on this "evidence"?It is also far better equipped than mine!!
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 11:28
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We in the aviation industry, have enough sources of confrontation and disagreement to deal with from outside, do we need to create more within our group?
We certainly have more than our share of headwind from outside. Regrettably, some of this headwind is justified and we should be ready to admit it - no use looking the other way. Like it or not, there are some pilots about who repeatedly behave irresponsably (in the UK and everywhere!). Better they should be reported in time, and from "inside", than too late and in the public media.

That said, I agree this present photograph is far too scant evidence to attack anyone, let alone for crucification.

An aside for those considering me "prickly" or "counter-productive": I recently assisted to a day-long discussion about safety in private flying - both the statistics and the photo's/movies shown were rather shocking.
-) the vast majority of accidents due to human error - far more use to study "human factors" than to train power-out landings. If, of course, the lessons learned are also applied.
-) the majority of accidents/incidents NOT by novice/low-experience pilots
Wonder if the same conclusions would emerge from analysing UK statistics?
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 13:28
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far more use to study "human factors" than to train power-out landings
I totally agree with this statement. I recall too many occasions where a very airworthy aircraft was all that stood between my poor decision, and a poor outcome! That's not to say that I have not had mecanical failures, but I've had a lot more human failures. Fortunately when I had the mechanical failures, I managed to keep the human failures to a minimum!

During my time at the engine overhaul shop, I conduced research on crashes involving aircraft powered by Lycoming 320 and 360 series engines, as several engines had come to us, all with the same mechaincal failure, and I wanted to see if there was a trend. The trend I found, was not the one I expected. The three internal failed engines were the only three known to have had that failure in Canada - we just happened to get all three. In summary, less than 4% of crashes of that group of aircraft could be attributed to mechanical failure of the engine. 50% were fuel exhaustion, and 25% more on top of that were improper fuel management. Human factors.

The "Swiss Cheese - holes lining up" model for an accident is an excellent way of thinking about it. I've allowed holes to line up carelessly, and sometimes lined a few up, in a "necessary" operation (flying a helicopter across a small fog bank, to the clear on the other side, during which operation, an engine failure would be really bad). The key is to be alert to the fact that holes are begining to line up, and figure where your comfort level is in the present, AND possible near future, conditions, so another unexpect hole does not line up, and be your last.

I agree that we must all take "inside" responsibility for each other, and keep our pastime safe, and looking good from the outside. Mentoring and an understanding word of advice are good. Witch hunts, and random fault finding are not. I avoid as much as possible unsubstantiated fault finding agaist others, lest someone recalls the occasion in the past when I had done something equally dumb!

"Do unto [for] others, as you would have them do unto [for] you..."
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 20:05
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Remark below photo on site:
"Flying in fog from Suwalki to Ketrzyn"
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 20:34
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Yes.
Suwalki - EPSU - elev. 580'
Ketrzyn EPKE - elev. 459'
(unofficial data, from www . landings . com )
so - if the altimeter is indeed reading +/- 1100' AMSL - he might well be close to the 500' AGL minimum.
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 20:49
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Close. Honestly, people get a life......
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 22:14
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4) Power at 2500 RPM with speed in the yellow arc!
I don't know what engine is up front, but most engines I know 2500 is inside or at the top of the green arc, and redline is 2700. So no problem.

Also, in foggy conditions like this there's normally no turbulence. So what's wrong with speed in the yellow arc?

Furthermore, 2500 rpm on a 180 HP engine, giving you 110 knots. Sounds about right to me for a level flight, or maybe even on the low side. He was not in a significant accellerating dive like a spiral dive. He might have been in a power-off dive, with power restored to normal just after pulling out, and the VSI just lagging behind a bit. But at least this suggests that everything is under control.

Honestly, you would need at least a readout of a g-meter and a readout of a turn coordinator (plus maybe the slip ball) to support your statement that something really dangerous, like a spiral dive, is going on. For all I know he could simply just have pulled out of a balanced, descending, power-off turn.

And trust me, in a spiral dive (or spin for that matter) the forces are all over the place making it extremely difficult to hold a camera, let alone steady enough to take a reasonably sharp picture like this.
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Old 11th Oct 2010, 22:51
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Looks like a poor attempt at a level left hand turn to me and more like mist than fog.

Regards,
BH.
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