MEPR - Seneca Advice
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MEPR - Seneca Advice
I am just about to embark on the MEP Class Rating using a Piper Seneca 1 (PA34) and would like to get some advice on the course and any tips from other pilots who operate or have operated the Seneca 1.
My experience is Mainly of the PA28 family 140hp to 180hp including the Arrow, if anyone could offer some advice that would be great.
Thanks
VFR
My experience is Mainly of the PA28 family 140hp to 180hp including the Arrow, if anyone could offer some advice that would be great.
Thanks
VFR
With both engines running it will be just like a big single.
Just remember losing 50% of the engiines will lose you about 80% of the performance, and this is when the fun starts.
Never flown a seneca 1 but I will assume that losing an engine it might just remain level gear and flaps up, so with gear or flap extended it will be going down even at best single engine climb speed. So listen to your instructor and enjoy the fun.
Oh and maybe do some exercises to build up your thigh muscles you will be needing them!
Just remember losing 50% of the engiines will lose you about 80% of the performance, and this is when the fun starts.
Never flown a seneca 1 but I will assume that losing an engine it might just remain level gear and flaps up, so with gear or flap extended it will be going down even at best single engine climb speed. So listen to your instructor and enjoy the fun.
Oh and maybe do some exercises to build up your thigh muscles you will be needing them!
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I am no expert with a grand total of 15 hours on the 1.
As you probably know the aileron rudder link is a little unusual and severly limits the recommended xwind - which rather defeats one of the objects of flying a twin. That said, I thought it landed pretty well in more than the recommended xwind but I didnt have the chance to explore the limits I would actually be comfortable with. I gather there are some really bad examples around but hopefully the one you will be flying is not. The single engine performance feels about the same as a 42 - it will certainly go up on one engine assuming reasonably normal conditions.
I would guess a good aircraft for your MEP as it is at least a "proper" twin but I wouldnt buy one for all sorts of other reasons.
You may find the first few hours in a twin a big step up - I know I did. I think that is normal unless you are a natural Sky God. All I can say is make sure you learn the cockpit inside out (know where everything is) and also make sure you learn ALL speeds / power settings. It will make the flying so much easier because to start with a lot more seems to be happening, the scenery will be moving more quickly and the last thing you need is to find you are struggling to remember the power settings.
Good luck!
As you probably know the aileron rudder link is a little unusual and severly limits the recommended xwind - which rather defeats one of the objects of flying a twin. That said, I thought it landed pretty well in more than the recommended xwind but I didnt have the chance to explore the limits I would actually be comfortable with. I gather there are some really bad examples around but hopefully the one you will be flying is not. The single engine performance feels about the same as a 42 - it will certainly go up on one engine assuming reasonably normal conditions.
I would guess a good aircraft for your MEP as it is at least a "proper" twin but I wouldnt buy one for all sorts of other reasons.
You may find the first few hours in a twin a big step up - I know I did. I think that is normal unless you are a natural Sky God. All I can say is make sure you learn the cockpit inside out (know where everything is) and also make sure you learn ALL speeds / power settings. It will make the flying so much easier because to start with a lot more seems to be happening, the scenery will be moving more quickly and the last thing you need is to find you are struggling to remember the power settings.
Good luck!
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If you're used to the Arrow then you you're going to feel at home. The Seneca 1 is easier to operate than the later turbo normalised variants. Unless you flew the turbo Arrow perhaps 25"/2500rpm for climb and 23"/2400rpm cruise sounds familiar?
The OEI performance is dismal so don't go near any hills
The OEI performance is dismal so don't go near any hills
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Thanks for the feedback so far 
I must admit that it will be a good fun bit of flying but understand that everything happens that little bit quicker. I have the Thom (Dave Robson) MEP book along with CAP601 to read through, and now have a Seneca 1 POH on PDF to look over too.
I would still like some feedback from those who fly or flew this type on a regular basis.
VFR
I must admit that it will be a good fun bit of flying but understand that everything happens that little bit quicker. I have the Thom (Dave Robson) MEP book along with CAP601 to read through, and now have a Seneca 1 POH on PDF to look over too.
I would still like some feedback from those who fly or flew this type on a regular basis.
VFR
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OK, the other thing you REALLY need, is the usual plastic laminated card with all the operational and performance settings on it.
Your club / school will almost certainly have one.
Learn it by heart, it will make an amazing difference to your MEP.
You will be back to circuit bashing, and you will be dealing with flaps, gear, power settings, prop. sync etc so make sure you know what to do, where and when in the circuit. That, and the asy. work, are really the only challenging parts of flying multis, aside from getting use to the scenery going past quicker in the cruise.
Sorry to repeat myself but I hope it is worth it because it will make doing your MEP so much more straight forward.
OK, the other thing you REALLY need, is the usual plastic laminated card with all the operational and performance settings on it.
Your club / school will almost certainly have one.
Learn it by heart, it will make an amazing difference to your MEP.
You will be back to circuit bashing, and you will be dealing with flaps, gear, power settings, prop. sync etc so make sure you know what to do, where and when in the circuit. That, and the asy. work, are really the only challenging parts of flying multis, aside from getting use to the scenery going past quicker in the cruise.
Sorry to repeat myself but I hope it is worth it because it will make doing your MEP so much more straight forward.
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I agree with Fuji, Make sure that you know your checks inside out (but then that goes for all aircraft) coz its an expensive place to make mistakes and learn stuff that you should know on the ground...
As one who's flown Seminoles as well I preferred the Seneca it has more power but then that also contributed to problems getting used to the throttle controls...they are very sensitive and you have to take into account the lag on the Turbo but overall you'll enjoy the seneca. She's not as bad as the seminole SE and has a better SE climb rate but you may have to drop the power on the good engine to make sure you can maintain lateral direction control.
BBut as long as you keep the MAP below 40 you're grand...
Enjoy!!
As one who's flown Seminoles as well I preferred the Seneca it has more power but then that also contributed to problems getting used to the throttle controls...they are very sensitive and you have to take into account the lag on the Turbo but overall you'll enjoy the seneca. She's not as bad as the seminole SE and has a better SE climb rate but you may have to drop the power on the good engine to make sure you can maintain lateral direction control.
BBut as long as you keep the MAP below 40 you're grand...
Enjoy!!
Slight correction: The later variants are turbocharged, providing greater-than-sea levl manifold pressure ie boost. Turbonormalising is a form of turbocharging that only maintains SL pressure at altitude.
Learn the immediate action engine failure drills until you start mumbling them in your sleep. You don't have to rush them when they're used - better a slightly slower pace to make sure you don't pull the wrong knob - but you *do* have to know them.
The Seneca is a Part 23 light multi <6000lb MTOW and Vs<61 kts so +ve climb performance on one engine was not required. Only that what ever performance it has "...be determined". That determination could be downhill. Further, like all other light twins, whatever best climb (or slowest descent) performance it has when asymmetric is only under a very limited set of conditions to minimise drag. Fail to meet those specs. and you can kiss any expectation of meeting book performance out the window. *Don't* get into the mindset that the 2nd engine will always enable you to continue flying!
A failed engine also adds a higher probability of losing control due to the asymmetric thrust. Conditions that are beneficial to better single engine performance act opposite to conditions that provide better single engine control and vica versa. Don't confuse asymmetric *control* with asymmetric *performance*. Further to that, some instructors have been known to teach that best single engine performance will be at 5 deg angle of bank (because Minimum Conrol Speed is determined with up to 5 deg bank). This is not the case. 5 deg bank is solely concerned with *control*. Best asymmetric performance will typically be at 2-3 deg bank.
Remember *control* is more important than *performance*. You can survive a crash that hits the ground under control Chances are you won't survive an out of control cartwheel into the ground.
The Seneca is a simple aircraft. Seneca 1 particularly. Like others have said, if you're flown an Arrows or a Lance you'll feel at home fairly quickly.
Some bits & pieces:
* Each wheel hanging out is worth about an inch of manifold pressure to maintain a descent profile. When the wheels go out add about 3" MP to maintain the current profile.
* Always check the nose locker door is locked before getting in the aircraft no matter how sure you are that the door was closed. It's tempting to close the rear door after loading pax/boxes & walk the shorter path around the tail so you can enter. Don't. Take the the longer way around the wings so you can check the nose locker door. If it's not closed it will fly open just as you rotate and can separate from the airframe. It's embarassing & a poor showing of one's usual care & attention. Trust me on this one...
Might think of more later.
Learn the immediate action engine failure drills until you start mumbling them in your sleep. You don't have to rush them when they're used - better a slightly slower pace to make sure you don't pull the wrong knob - but you *do* have to know them.
The Seneca is a Part 23 light multi <6000lb MTOW and Vs<61 kts so +ve climb performance on one engine was not required. Only that what ever performance it has "...be determined". That determination could be downhill. Further, like all other light twins, whatever best climb (or slowest descent) performance it has when asymmetric is only under a very limited set of conditions to minimise drag. Fail to meet those specs. and you can kiss any expectation of meeting book performance out the window. *Don't* get into the mindset that the 2nd engine will always enable you to continue flying!
A failed engine also adds a higher probability of losing control due to the asymmetric thrust. Conditions that are beneficial to better single engine performance act opposite to conditions that provide better single engine control and vica versa. Don't confuse asymmetric *control* with asymmetric *performance*. Further to that, some instructors have been known to teach that best single engine performance will be at 5 deg angle of bank (because Minimum Conrol Speed is determined with up to 5 deg bank). This is not the case. 5 deg bank is solely concerned with *control*. Best asymmetric performance will typically be at 2-3 deg bank.
Remember *control* is more important than *performance*. You can survive a crash that hits the ground under control Chances are you won't survive an out of control cartwheel into the ground.
The Seneca is a simple aircraft. Seneca 1 particularly. Like others have said, if you're flown an Arrows or a Lance you'll feel at home fairly quickly.
Some bits & pieces:
* Each wheel hanging out is worth about an inch of manifold pressure to maintain a descent profile. When the wheels go out add about 3" MP to maintain the current profile.
* Always check the nose locker door is locked before getting in the aircraft no matter how sure you are that the door was closed. It's tempting to close the rear door after loading pax/boxes & walk the shorter path around the tail so you can enter. Don't. Take the the longer way around the wings so you can check the nose locker door. If it's not closed it will fly open just as you rotate and can separate from the airframe. It's embarassing & a poor showing of one's usual care & attention. Trust me on this one...
Might think of more later.
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Slight correction: The later variants are turbocharged, providing greater-than-sea levl manifold pressure ie boost. Turbonormalising is a form of turbocharging that only maintains SL pressure at altitude.
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Always check the nose locker door is locked before getting in the aircraft no matter how sure you are that the door was closed. It's tempting to close the rear door after loading pax/boxes & walk the shorter path around the tail so you can enter. Don't. Take the the longer way around the wings so you can check the nose locker door. If it's not closed it will fly open just as you rotate and can separate from the airframe. It's embarassing & a poor showing of one's usual care & attention. Trust me on this one...
I'm not familiar with the performance in the Seneca I, but have spent a lot of time tooling around in Seneca II's; it's one of the few light twins that does quite well on one engine; it will hold 8,000 fairly well, loaded, on one engine.
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I agree with regard to the baggage doors. In fact I have never understood why anyone would leave the doors unlocked. It is exactly the same on most twins. While I have not heard of the two nose doors on a 42 coming unlatched even on such a modern design I would not set off without securing both doors locked.
I agree with regard to the baggage doors. In fact I have never understood why anyone would leave the doors unlocked. It is exactly the same on most twins. While I have not heard of the two nose doors on a 42 coming unlatched even on such a modern design I would not set off without securing both doors locked.
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VFR
I have a lot of time on Senecas mainly 5 but also 4,3,2 and a couple of flights on a 1.
The 1 is a very old bird and it shows in the odd placement of switches.
Performance in the 1 as far as I remember was very poor the aircraft being underpowered.
As will all the Senecas make sure you trim well back before landing to stop you landing flat or even worse nose wheel first.
The Seneca porpoise is well known and many have lost the nosewheel that way.
No trailing link so soft landings are hard to come by.
Apart from that they share an old wing design which is draggy but gives a lot of lift. The aircraft is docile and will give plenty of warning.
Surprised there are still 1s being used for training? Hope you have a really cheap deal on the 1?
Remember too the engines are counter rotating which will make life a bit easier (pretty sure the 1 was too?)
Pace
I have a lot of time on Senecas mainly 5 but also 4,3,2 and a couple of flights on a 1.
The 1 is a very old bird and it shows in the odd placement of switches.
Performance in the 1 as far as I remember was very poor the aircraft being underpowered.
As will all the Senecas make sure you trim well back before landing to stop you landing flat or even worse nose wheel first.
The Seneca porpoise is well known and many have lost the nosewheel that way.
No trailing link so soft landings are hard to come by.
Apart from that they share an old wing design which is draggy but gives a lot of lift. The aircraft is docile and will give plenty of warning.
Surprised there are still 1s being used for training? Hope you have a really cheap deal on the 1?
Remember too the engines are counter rotating which will make life a bit easier (pretty sure the 1 was too?)
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 6th Oct 2010 at 11:30.
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For me to fly a Seneca 1 it would have to be very cheap 
There are scores of Seneca 2s and 3s around which are also old but much better machines.
Ok the 4 is a much more refined 3 with prettier cowls and lopresti scoops. The 5 is a different animal.
So go up in price through the models. 1 is well ? 1
Pace
There are scores of Seneca 2s and 3s around which are also old but much better machines.Ok the 4 is a much more refined 3 with prettier cowls and lopresti scoops. The 5 is a different animal.
So go up in price through the models. 1 is well ? 1
Pace
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Pace is right but if it is only to do your MEP the 1 will work just fine. If, on the other hand, you are thinking of flying the same aircraft after your MEP I would think again unless it is an exceptional example.
Mind you even for the MEP part you will be sitting in the thing for at least 6 hours so if it is an old dog the price should be reflective.
If they have something else reasonable for hire dont forget you will probably need a couple of hours to convert to the "new" type so money saved on the 1 will not necessarily be money saved in the long run but, on the other hand, you will have the experience of two different aircraft.
Mind you even for the MEP part you will be sitting in the thing for at least 6 hours so if it is an old dog the price should be reflective.
If they have something else reasonable for hire dont forget you will probably need a couple of hours to convert to the "new" type so money saved on the 1 will not necessarily be money saved in the long run but, on the other hand, you will have the experience of two different aircraft.
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Good advice on this thread. Make sure you are thinking well ahead of the aircraft so that each action you make has already been planned and doesn't leave you rushing to keep up.
Same in any aircraft I suppose, but moving from trainer singles to a twin can be a bit daunting becuase of the increased speed.
Same in any aircraft I suppose, but moving from trainer singles to a twin can be a bit daunting becuase of the increased speed.
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Fuji / Pace
The Complete course in the Seneca 1 is = £2,563 which is broken down to
6 Hours Dual @ £349.00
1 Hour Test @ £349.00
Written Exam @ £20.00
Flight Test Fee @ £100.00
I have no idea if this is fair or not? however I know that the aircraft I wish to use is a Seneca. I am located in Suffolk and to be honest there is not alot around these neck of the woods in the way of a Seneca.
VFR
The Complete course in the Seneca 1 is = £2,563 which is broken down to
6 Hours Dual @ £349.00
1 Hour Test @ £349.00
Written Exam @ £20.00
Flight Test Fee @ £100.00
I have no idea if this is fair or not? however I know that the aircraft I wish to use is a Seneca. I am located in Suffolk and to be honest there is not alot around these neck of the woods in the way of a Seneca.
VFR