Landings
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Landings
How long did it take people to start getting landings right?
I've had 7 or 8 lessons now, and I've been flying the circuit rejoin and approach to land just about unaided for the last 4 or so. Each time all is fine up to the last 50 or so feet - good 70kt decent, runway where it should be, aircraft nice and stable - and then it all goes wrong. Yesterday I flared too hard, too early, and suddenly we are going up, not down, and those numbers I'd been nicely aimed at are way behind us. The time before it was too little prompting a quick correction from my instructor before I dented the warrior. We've not really worked on landings yet, but I'm getting annoyed with myself for constantly @rsing up the last bit. I know landing the damn thing is probably the hardest bit to get to grips with, but I feel I should at least be getting closer....
Any thoughts on what I'm getting wrong, or what I should be thinking about? I'd like to try and get my head around what's supposed to be happening and why it isn't.
Cheers!
I've had 7 or 8 lessons now, and I've been flying the circuit rejoin and approach to land just about unaided for the last 4 or so. Each time all is fine up to the last 50 or so feet - good 70kt decent, runway where it should be, aircraft nice and stable - and then it all goes wrong. Yesterday I flared too hard, too early, and suddenly we are going up, not down, and those numbers I'd been nicely aimed at are way behind us. The time before it was too little prompting a quick correction from my instructor before I dented the warrior. We've not really worked on landings yet, but I'm getting annoyed with myself for constantly @rsing up the last bit. I know landing the damn thing is probably the hardest bit to get to grips with, but I feel I should at least be getting closer....
Any thoughts on what I'm getting wrong, or what I should be thinking about? I'd like to try and get my head around what's supposed to be happening and why it isn't.
Cheers!
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I think most people find landing the most dificult bit. I was hopeless for ages. Like most things, when you have mastered it (If you ever really master landings) you wonder what all of the fuss was about.
My instructor got me to judge the height during the last 50' by looking out of the side window. It certainly helped me, I was able to judge the flare quite well after that.
7 or 8 lessons isn't that many in the scheme of things, it will come.
Edited for inability to remember simple figures
[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: New Bloke ]
My instructor got me to judge the height during the last 50' by looking out of the side window. It certainly helped me, I was able to judge the flare quite well after that.
7 or 8 lessons isn't that many in the scheme of things, it will come.
Edited for inability to remember simple figures
[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: New Bloke ]
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Evo,
When flaring or rounding out, where are you looking? Your focus should be aimed right up the runway to the other end. It helps the perspective of how high you are above the R/W.
Keep on trying, it will all come right soon, and you will be 'greasing' them in. !
When flaring or rounding out, where are you looking? Your focus should be aimed right up the runway to the other end. It helps the perspective of how high you are above the R/W.
Keep on trying, it will all come right soon, and you will be 'greasing' them in. !
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There are three basic parts of a landing, the approach, the flare, and the touchdown.
1. The approach should be stable, at a constant recommended airspeed and on glideslope (the correct and wrong perspectives should all have been demonstrated to you by your instructor). A good approach leads to a good landing. Remember that power controls height (ie low, add power, raise nose to maintain airspeed) and pitch controls speed (ie too slow, lower nose to get required airspeed).
2. As you get closer to your aiming point (most probably the numbers), you start to round out (the flare). To avoid ballooning, your airspeed should be at the recommended speed. Close the throttle (or as instructed) and look at the end of the runway. This achieves two things. Firstly you can keep straight using your feet by looking ahead. Secondly, by looking ahead, you don't get a ground rush and try to avoid the ground by pulling up briskly (a common fault). Ground rush and excess speed are the two major contributors to ballooning, or getting too slow and bouncing.
3. The touchdown or landing is done from the flare. Simply keep looking straight ahead, close the throttle (if not already) and try to hold the aeroplane a few feet off the runway (estimate this by feel, don't look or you'll defeat the purpose of looking straight ahead). This should allow you to land in a slightly nose-high attitude and a smooth touch-down.
Landing can be difficult in conditions out of your control (ie wind), but good basic understanding and practice will give a good platform from which to improve.
All the best, hope this wasn't too long winded for you and hope it helps.
Kermie
[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: Kermit 180 ]
1. The approach should be stable, at a constant recommended airspeed and on glideslope (the correct and wrong perspectives should all have been demonstrated to you by your instructor). A good approach leads to a good landing. Remember that power controls height (ie low, add power, raise nose to maintain airspeed) and pitch controls speed (ie too slow, lower nose to get required airspeed).
2. As you get closer to your aiming point (most probably the numbers), you start to round out (the flare). To avoid ballooning, your airspeed should be at the recommended speed. Close the throttle (or as instructed) and look at the end of the runway. This achieves two things. Firstly you can keep straight using your feet by looking ahead. Secondly, by looking ahead, you don't get a ground rush and try to avoid the ground by pulling up briskly (a common fault). Ground rush and excess speed are the two major contributors to ballooning, or getting too slow and bouncing.
3. The touchdown or landing is done from the flare. Simply keep looking straight ahead, close the throttle (if not already) and try to hold the aeroplane a few feet off the runway (estimate this by feel, don't look or you'll defeat the purpose of looking straight ahead). This should allow you to land in a slightly nose-high attitude and a smooth touch-down.
Landing can be difficult in conditions out of your control (ie wind), but good basic understanding and practice will give a good platform from which to improve.
All the best, hope this wasn't too long winded for you and hope it helps.
Kermie
[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: Kermit 180 ]
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Evo7,
Check out Studen Journals on Yahoo, and read them!
Everyone has problems with this, most people say that eventually it just "clicks". Some people have not been able to highlight what it was that made it "click", but some have, and where they have, try all the suggestions - most probably won't work, but if even one of them does, that's great!
Something which I think helped me was flying frequently. I was at the same stage as you were, when I decided to take a week off work in order to use up some holiday. During my week off, I flew 6 times, and on the 6th time I soloed! I wouldn't recommend flying this often when you're trying to learn and absorb new stuff, but at this stage in the training I found it to be great help.
Most of all, stick with it, don't let it get you down - you will get there.
Good luck!
FFF
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Check out Studen Journals on Yahoo, and read them!
Everyone has problems with this, most people say that eventually it just "clicks". Some people have not been able to highlight what it was that made it "click", but some have, and where they have, try all the suggestions - most probably won't work, but if even one of them does, that's great!
Something which I think helped me was flying frequently. I was at the same stage as you were, when I decided to take a week off work in order to use up some holiday. During my week off, I flew 6 times, and on the 6th time I soloed! I wouldn't recommend flying this often when you're trying to learn and absorb new stuff, but at this stage in the training I found it to be great help.
Most of all, stick with it, don't let it get you down - you will get there.
Good luck!
FFF
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Many thousands of landings - Still smash it in occasionally 
Keep working at it - ultimately you can read a million books and get a billion briefings about the subject but still have no idea what you are trying to achieve. Eventually it will all make sense to you and you'll have a great day when it all seems like it's flowing sweetly.
There really are few things more satisfying than a great landing.
(Oooh! - 70kt is a bit quick in a Warrior - POH speed is 64kt at gross mass)
[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: M14P ]
Keep working at it - ultimately you can read a million books and get a billion briefings about the subject but still have no idea what you are trying to achieve. Eventually it will all make sense to you and you'll have a great day when it all seems like it's flowing sweetly.
There really are few things more satisfying than a great landing.
(Oooh! - 70kt is a bit quick in a Warrior - POH speed is 64kt at gross mass)
[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: M14P ]
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Cheers, chaps.
I am looking down the runway as I attempt to flare, but in all honesty I'm not quite sure what I'm looking at. It certainly took me a while to realise that I wasn't getting any closer to the ground yesterday, although it was pretty obvious thinking back. Just didn't make it into my head. A quick glance at the VSI would probably have told me that I had overcooked it too. It seemed to me that the aircraft was keen to pick up height when I started to pull back to flare, but I'm not sure if this is ground effect or me just overdoing it.
Kermie - I'm alright on part 1, but keep messing up part 2 so badly that my instructor does part 3 I think the speed is OK, but I'm just having problems getting the rest right.
I am looking down the runway as I attempt to flare, but in all honesty I'm not quite sure what I'm looking at
. It certainly took me a while to realise that I wasn't getting any closer to the ground yesterday, although it was pretty obvious thinking back. Just didn't make it into my head. A quick glance at the VSI would probably have told me that I had overcooked it too. It seemed to me that the aircraft was keen to pick up height when I started to pull back to flare, but I'm not sure if this is ground effect or me just overdoing it. Kermie - I'm alright on part 1, but keep messing up part 2 so badly that my instructor does part 3
I think the speed is OK, but I'm just having problems getting the rest right.
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M14P
I'll check the numbers - 70kt is the figure that I've got in my head, so that may be part of the problem.
Nothing may be more satisfying than a great landing, but I'd take anything I can get right now
I'll check the numbers - 70kt is the figure that I've got in my head, so that may be part of the problem.
Nothing may be more satisfying than a great landing, but I'd take anything I can get right now
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Evo
Stick at it mate; although I was safe at the end of my PPL, it took me another 50 hours or so to get really comfortable with landings.
Recently, I've bought a share in a different type to the one I fly regularly and guess what? - safe, but not comfortable as the picture over the nose is different - but it will come with a few more circuits.
A pilot much more experienced than me once summed it up by saying "I can tell you how to land, but I can't teach you to do it - you've got to learn that your self."
I think that the thing that was hardest for me to do was to learn to look at the end of the runway and more importantly, to time when to do it.
These days, I start to look at the end when I have the field made and the feelng I get is of the world going from 2d to 3d as my peripheral vision takes in all the surrounding clues - I am really sorry that I can't explain it better than this.
After focussing on the end, the aeroplane seems to "sink" into the picture and I just know when to hold off - it very natural.
Ability to land grows with confidence and the Warrior is a lovely lander - so stick at it and try to relax - it will come, I promise.
[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]
Stick at it mate; although I was safe at the end of my PPL, it took me another 50 hours or so to get really comfortable with landings.
Recently, I've bought a share in a different type to the one I fly regularly and guess what? - safe, but not comfortable as the picture over the nose is different - but it will come with a few more circuits.
A pilot much more experienced than me once summed it up by saying "I can tell you how to land, but I can't teach you to do it - you've got to learn that your self."
I think that the thing that was hardest for me to do was to learn to look at the end of the runway and more importantly, to time when to do it.
These days, I start to look at the end when I have the field made and the feelng I get is of the world going from 2d to 3d as my peripheral vision takes in all the surrounding clues - I am really sorry that I can't explain it better than this.
After focussing on the end, the aeroplane seems to "sink" into the picture and I just know when to hold off - it very natural.
Ability to land grows with confidence and the Warrior is a lovely lander - so stick at it and try to relax - it will come, I promise.
[ 06 August 2001: Message edited by: Final 3 Greens ]
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M14P
70kias is quicker than an experienced pilot would approach the fence in a Warrior, but some schools use this number - especially if they are teaching landing with two stages of flaps, which seems common.
Flying a lot slower than this is getting towards the back of the drag curve and whilst experienced pilots will make the slight and constant adjustments unconsciously, students (I am told) can find this a bit challenging. Also the 5-6 knots extra airspeed can make the ailerons a little crisper etc etc
I prefer to bring an Archer over the fence at 65, with full flaps - even then the s*d sometime wants to float a little! Am just trying to cope presently with the concept of with my Pup wanting similar speeds, when it is 900lbs lighter!
70kias is quicker than an experienced pilot would approach the fence in a Warrior, but some schools use this number - especially if they are teaching landing with two stages of flaps, which seems common.
Flying a lot slower than this is getting towards the back of the drag curve and whilst experienced pilots will make the slight and constant adjustments unconsciously, students (I am told) can find this a bit challenging. Also the 5-6 knots extra airspeed can make the ailerons a little crisper etc etc
I prefer to bring an Archer over the fence at 65, with full flaps - even then the s*d sometime wants to float a little! Am just trying to cope presently with the concept of with my Pup wanting similar speeds, when it is 900lbs lighter!
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When I was struggling badly in the pre-solo phase, an instructor mentioned that one of the frustrating things about the experience was the lack of any frame of reference. As mentioned above, despite all of the briefing and instruction you can still feel unsure as to how it is supposed to look and feel. Meanwhile it's easy to feel as though you are the one thicko in the world who cannot do what everyone else at the airfield (even that numptoid propping up the bar) seems able to do. In the past your mates could ride their bikes, or swim, or skate-board, or hill-start their cars, or whatever it was that you just couldn't do, but then one day you could.
If you can, take FFF'S advice and book a few days off to concentrate on flying. That worked for me as well. A good few dual circuit sorties, say 40 mins to 1 hr, with plenty of pauses for coffee and reflection in between, and the next thing you know you'll be experiencing a previously unprecedented rate of climb, glancing over at that seat beside you and noticing that all it's got in it is a map and a headset. Good luck.
If you can, take FFF'S advice and book a few days off to concentrate on flying. That worked for me as well. A good few dual circuit sorties, say 40 mins to 1 hr, with plenty of pauses for coffee and reflection in between, and the next thing you know you'll be experiencing a previously unprecedented rate of climb, glancing over at that seat beside you and noticing that all it's got in it is a map and a headset. Good luck.
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With only about 7 hours to-date this is by far the hardest bit (and reading Air Law on the train of course). I guess I've flown about eight or nine circuits, each time with the instructor loading more of the RT on me - and Cranfield is a busy circuit with a lot of ATPL and Helio ops (I'm getting good at RH orbits at least).
I've slammed the poor C152 into the ground, flared at 20' (applied stall recovery, flaps 10, +ve ROC etc.. not so much a touch and go as go and go). I've had to go around as someone was sitting on the threshold from the base turn - despite being asked repeatedly to expedite. It is however coming together - the turns are smooth, the height is there or there-about, speed is all of the place - I once forgot to pull the power so we crossed the threshold - I rounded out, and up we went - "climbing trim it is then" said my poor white haired instructor. In all this I've actually pulled off a greaser as well (my first funny enough).
I think - if you cast your mind back to the first flight, learning to taxi, turns climbs etc... it is amazing how much you've taken on board. It has to be easier look how many idiots are in the circuit (no offence to other Cranfield regulars). It will come - hopefully to me as well at some point, before the school charges me for a new set of tyres - or re-alignment of the creep marks at the very least! I've pretty much got all the bumps and creases out of RW 22.
Got to admit - flying isn't fun at the moment - any experienced PPLs out of Cranfield want to take me up for an hour to re-introduce me to the joy of flying (I'll go 50% of course)?
I've slammed the poor C152 into the ground, flared at 20' (applied stall recovery, flaps 10, +ve ROC etc.. not so much a touch and go as go and go). I've had to go around as someone was sitting on the threshold from the base turn - despite being asked repeatedly to expedite. It is however coming together - the turns are smooth, the height is there or there-about, speed is all of the place - I once forgot to pull the power so we crossed the threshold - I rounded out, and up we went - "climbing trim it is then" said my poor white haired instructor. In all this I've actually pulled off a greaser as well (my first funny enough).
I think - if you cast your mind back to the first flight, learning to taxi, turns climbs etc... it is amazing how much you've taken on board. It has to be easier look how many idiots are in the circuit (no offence to other Cranfield regulars). It will come - hopefully to me as well at some point, before the school charges me for a new set of tyres - or re-alignment of the creep marks at the very least! I've pretty much got all the bumps and creases out of RW 22.
Got to admit - flying isn't fun at the moment - any experienced PPLs out of Cranfield want to take me up for an hour to re-introduce me to the joy of flying (I'll go 50% of course)?
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Well, I was convinced for ages that I held the world record for hours spent learning to land! 
I've since been told I was nowhere near it, but it felt like it at the time.
Listen to all the advice, as some of it may click. But if it doesn't, remember that flying is a bit like riding a bike - impossible till you can do it, then you wonder what all the fuss was about. Helicopter pilots really know about that, because you absolutely cannot hover with your brain. Despite knowing about the lag in the controls, and trying to compensate for it, it takes a certain number of hours practice (the number varies with different people for no apparent reason) until it all clicks. Then you don't try, you just hover. But I realised recently that fixed wing landings are similar. I was flying a C152 after a longish break from f/w flying, and I realised I didn't remember exactly what to do - but I just landed.
Basically, you need time and practice for a series of unconnected and unaccustomed movements to become one activity - a skill. So the advice to get lots of practice, preferably over a shortish time if you can, is probably the best. And try to relax and laugh about the disasters, because it's harder to fly well if you're too tense. Probably impossible at this stage I know, but give it a try. Don't worry, it'll come.
I've since been told I was nowhere near it, but it felt like it at the time. Listen to all the advice, as some of it may click. But if it doesn't, remember that flying is a bit like riding a bike - impossible till you can do it, then you wonder what all the fuss was about. Helicopter pilots really know about that, because you absolutely cannot hover with your brain. Despite knowing about the lag in the controls, and trying to compensate for it, it takes a certain number of hours practice (the number varies with different people for no apparent reason) until it all clicks. Then you don't try, you just hover.
But I realised recently that fixed wing landings are similar. I was flying a C152 after a longish break from f/w flying, and I realised I didn't remember exactly what to do - but I just landed. Basically, you need time and practice for a series of unconnected and unaccustomed movements to become one activity - a skill. So the advice to get lots of practice, preferably over a shortish time if you can, is probably the best. And try to relax and laugh about the disasters, because it's harder to fly well if you're too tense. Probably impossible at this stage I know, but give it a try. Don't worry, it'll come.
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I was taught this from the start and it worked a treat........
In the last few seconds of the approach with the power off aim to try and fly the runway at 4 feet above the ground. If you have too much speed it will bleed off after a few seconds, if not enough the next stage will happen that much sooner.
As your attempts to stay 4 feet above the ground start failing the nose will naturally rise and the a/c will descend gently onto the tarmac/grass, mainwheels first.
You can lower the nosewheel down at this point or keep it just above ground for a bit of braking effect.
It really does work and there will NEVER be a bounce back into the air as the a/c is just not going fast enough to do it.
Anyone agree?
In the last few seconds of the approach with the power off aim to try and fly the runway at 4 feet above the ground. If you have too much speed it will bleed off after a few seconds, if not enough the next stage will happen that much sooner.
As your attempts to stay 4 feet above the ground start failing the nose will naturally rise and the a/c will descend gently onto the tarmac/grass, mainwheels first.
You can lower the nosewheel down at this point or keep it just above ground for a bit of braking effect.
It really does work and there will NEVER be a bounce back into the air as the a/c is just not going fast enough to do it.
Anyone agree?
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Well done Toppers, one of the best descriptions of a landing and one I think we all do unconciously.
I think the problem is judging that last 4 feet. Until you get used to it, you start the proccess either 20 feet above or 2 feet below the runway. That was my problem anyway.
I think the problem is judging that last 4 feet. Until you get used to it, you start the proccess either 20 feet above or 2 feet below the runway. That was my problem anyway.
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EVO,
Loads of top tips here but the main thing is to do whatever works for you.
I know that at the minute it's not but that doesn't matter coz if you've coped with everything so far this will be a doddle, the best thing is you probably won't even realise you're doing it right until you've greased four or five in and by then you won't conciously know how you do it you just do, so don't give up, the best is yet to come
Loads of top tips here but the main thing is to do whatever works for you.
I know that at the minute it's not but that doesn't matter coz if you've coped with everything so far this will be a doddle, the best thing is you probably won't even realise you're doing it right until you've greased four or five in and by then you won't conciously know how you do it you just do, so don't give up, the best is yet to come
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Lots of good advice given. Like most of us (all of us?) you've found out that landing is the hardest part of flying.
I found it so difficult (I learnt at a small strip which was too short for touch and go's) that after seeming to make no progress for ages, I said to my instructor I'll come back at 0830 every day for a circuits lesson until I can land. This did the trick for me and I went solo within 5 days.
Keep trying and fly as regularly as you can at this stage of your training. You will soon wonder what the problem was.
If all else fails, remember that a good landing is one you can walk away from. A really good landing is one where you can use the aircraft again as well!
I found it so difficult (I learnt at a small strip which was too short for touch and go's) that after seeming to make no progress for ages, I said to my instructor I'll come back at 0830 every day for a circuits lesson until I can land. This did the trick for me and I went solo within 5 days.
Keep trying and fly as regularly as you can at this stage of your training. You will soon wonder what the problem was.
If all else fails, remember that a good landing is one you can walk away from. A really good landing is one where you can use the aircraft again as well!
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Thanks, all. Some good advice there.
I was having a think through what is going wrong last night, and I think my problem is just that I don't really 'get it' yet. I've got everything else that I've done so far clear in my mind, so that if I want to climb at 80kt, for example, then I know what's supposed to be happening. Landings are a bit harder. It's the transition from glide with flaps (and a bit of power when required) to flying just above the runway that is tripping me up. Bit more thought required.
I'm not really that worried. Like I said, i've only had 7 or 8 lessons and we've not formally worked on landing, so it's not like I keep buggering it up and it's stopping me from going solo. I think that taking a bunch of lessons one week is certainly the way to go, although I'll wait a couple of lessons until we're really working on circuits. Got Air Law to do, too. And a PhD Thesis
(Edited for shocking grammer. And spelling)
[ 07 August 2001: Message edited by: Evo7 ]
I was having a think through what is going wrong last night, and I think my problem is just that I don't really 'get it' yet. I've got everything else that I've done so far clear in my mind, so that if I want to climb at 80kt, for example, then I know what's supposed to be happening. Landings are a bit harder. It's the transition from glide with flaps (and a bit of power when required) to flying just above the runway that is tripping me up. Bit more thought required.
I'm not really that worried. Like I said, i've only had 7 or 8 lessons and we've not formally worked on landing, so it's not like I keep buggering it up and it's stopping me from going solo. I think that taking a bunch of lessons one week is certainly the way to go, although I'll wait a couple of lessons until we're really working on circuits. Got Air Law to do, too. And a PhD Thesis
(Edited for shocking grammer. And spelling)
[ 07 August 2001: Message edited by: Evo7 ]
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A last thought! I reckon that many pilots are in a great rush to land - probably not unreasonably if the strip is a bit short. Find the longest runway you can, take on board all the other comments, and then spend a few circuits getting into the flare, and keeping the aircraft in that attitude for as long as the runway permits. You will be surprised how quickly you progress because I reckon that the trick is getting the brain use to the correct attitude in the flare. The longer the brain therefore has to see this attitude, the better - that’s my theory anyway - BUT you really must resist landing too soon!!!!
[ 07 August 2001: Message edited by: Fuji Abound ]
[ 07 August 2001: Message edited by: Fuji Abound ]
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Evo
I think that after 7-8 lessons not many will have got the hang of landing - I know that I didn't. Its just a matter of experience, you just have to keep at it.
The first time I landed at Manston was when I did my QXC and the runway's about four times the width of the one I'm use to (Shoreham) so the natural tendancy is to flare too early. Fortunately my landing was OK (I surprised myself).
Keep practising, it'll happen when you're ready for it.
str12
I think that after 7-8 lessons not many will have got the hang of landing - I know that I didn't. Its just a matter of experience, you just have to keep at it.
The first time I landed at Manston was when I did my QXC and the runway's about four times the width of the one I'm use to (Shoreham) so the natural tendancy is to flare too early. Fortunately my landing was OK (I surprised myself).
Keep practising, it'll happen when you're ready for it.
str12