Entry to PPL.

[BackPacker]

It is perfectly possible that a passenger in the back may not even notice anything untoward has happened,

Unless you are flying aerobatics and/or you have briefed your passenger appropriately that you are going to deliberately stall the aircraft, a stall should *not* happen with passengers on board.

A stall, even if it is a non-event, is a temporary departure from controlled flight. Normal practice is to perform all maneuvers so that a stall does not occur while doing them.

The reason stalls are taught during PPL training is NOT because you're going to need that skill during your normal flying sorties. It's because you're going to need your stall recovery skills in case you mess up something else first - speed control mostly.

In that sense, it's perfectly OK to dread stalling a bit - even after you've learned how to recover properly. That keeps you well away from that part of the envelope.

The best analogy I can come up with is skid/slip recovery during your drivers education. You get that not because skidding or slipping is a normal part of driving, but because you might need those skills in case you do something wrong, or something wrong happens to you.

(Strangely enough though, slipping may be part of your every day life as an aviator, depending a bit on the type of aircraft you're going to fly, and the best way to lose height or correct for a crosswind on final approach. And slipping is arguably less comfortable for your passengers than stalling.)

[IO540]

IME, Gertrude, they would do the trial lesson first, and make you wait.

[Gertrude the Wombat]

£50 notes

... quite deliberately.

[vw_nutter]

Hi

Just to echo what most people are saying on here - don't pay any money up front despite any incentives the school might offer. I know people who unfortunately have lost thousands of their hard-earned through schools going bust so its just not worth it. Personally I saved up all the money I needed (about 7k in all) and put it in a building society where I draw money out when I need it. In the mean time its earning me some nice interest so it sort of balances out - that and I trust my highstreet building society more than a flying school in terms of financial stability!

Its taken me almost 18 months to get to where I am and I would say there have been times when I needed that extra "refresher" lesson but after that I've been fine. Thats a job issue though and I wouldn't recommend "stretching it out" like I have. So in that respect its probably best to get it all done as soon as you can when its all fresh in your memory and you are in the "zone" as it were.

I'm almost at the end of my PPL now and my advice to you is not to worry about the flying part. I used to have a fear of flying even when going on holiday but I'm now totally comfortable flying and don't even think about my fear anymore! I think once you are in control it takes your mind off it and you soon forget your fear! That and you'll have enough to cope with in the busy cockpit environment anyway!

Good luck!

[mrmum]

Paying Upfront

You shouldn't necessarily totally discount the idea of paying something in advance. Although the previous posts are all good general advice, if you are going to get a good deal, and have already had a few flights, so are sure you are going to continue, also that the club/instructor/aircraft are okay, then why not pay a few grand on a credit card? If the club does go bust, then your card issuer is jointly liable and you can claim your money back from them under section 75 of the consumer credit act.

[Humaround]

Agree with the last comment. I went through my PPL training paying in 5 hour instalments, which still carried a reasonable discount, and paid on my credit card.

[24Carrot]

Offering discounts doesn't have to be a sign of a desperate cash shortage.

Loads of businesses do it to get revenues up. They tend to have high fixed costs, fixed output capacity, high costs per transaction, and some seasonal variation in demand. For example railways have season tickets, advanced payment tickets, off-peak tickets, etc. I think the fancy name is stratified pricing. Essentially it is a more or less elegant way of charging different people different prices for the same product.

Obviously, if the business model is bulk buying at 100, and bulk selling at 101, then offering a 25% discount would suggest concerns over meeting the next wage bill.

I have no experience of flying school economics, but I suspect (despite their best efforts to lease aircraft and even FI's by the flying hour), that they do have significant fixed costs, eg premises and aircraft parking. There are only so many aircraft hours they can sell, so their sales capacity is also limited. I don't know how credit card payment fees work, but processing each payment while the customer waits is a hassle, and some people will surely 'forget' to bring their card and they get credit anyway, etc. And 'nice' flying weather tends to be seasonal too!

So I think a solvent flying school can sensibly offer discounts for reasons that have nothing to do with funding.

[WishesToFly]

Here's My Conclusion

Hi All.

I have come to the conclusion that I wont pay for all my flying as a package deal, but will certainly save up the 'package' price in one shot. It will certainly take me some considerable time to save up the large amount of cash, but will commence flying lessons when I have around 70-75% of the cash. I have 2 credit cards with very respectable limits which are both slate clean (only the odd shopping bill on there from time to time) which will go to my advantage.

In the mean time I will have fun taking a few trial flying lessons at each of the 3 flying clubs at Southend, to get a feel for what it could be like, quality of instruction, aircraft and what's involved.

I also have a good opportunity to save for some basic kit like a head set and some books to read in the mean time.

I will no longer dread the 'stall' and have watched countless video's of stalls in light aircraft, some look stupidly intent and others look a doddle to recover from, I am a brave man anyway, not scared of flying (no way!)...I love it!

I end with a few final questions:

1) What can I read up on while I am NOT flying (saving up for lessons).

2) Is this logbook OK?

3) What headset is good for student flying and taking up the right seat every now and again?

Many thanks for all your help, I feel a lot more wiser to the subject now, and it sure pays to do your research and get advice from you (the people that have done it).

Many Thanks.

Alex

[BackPacker]

1) What can I read up on while I am NOT flying (saving up for lessons).

- PPRuNe
- Get a subscription to a GA flying magazine. Flyer for instance.
- Start on the PPL study books, for instance the Jeremy Pratt series:
AFE PPL Course Series Pack : AFE - Airplan Flight Equipment

2) Is this logbook OK?

Based on the description, probably not. But you'd have to look inside to make sure.

There are subtle differences between the way the FAA and JAR-FCL require you to record your hours. Getting the wrong logbook does not make properly recording hours outright impossible, but certainly does make it harder to get right.

You run less risk by buying any of the three logbooks from this page:

Logbooks - afeonline.com, Europe's favourite online Pilot Shop, by

3) What headset is good for student flying and taking up the right seat every now and again?

That's a really personal decision. Since you've got plenty time, you might want to wait for an opportunity to drop by a well-stocked pilot shop and simply try a few for their feel/fit. You might also want to keep an eye on eBay and the local classifieds at your local school/club for a good deal.

Anyway, at your stage it's probably not worth investing in an expensive ANR headset. Just get a passive one. You can always upgrade to an ANR headset later, and use the passive one for your passengers. Personally I'm very happy with this one:

SkyLite SL-900 Stereo Aviation Headset

[tacpot]

... will certainly save up the 'package' price in one shot.

That's the way to do it.

If you can save £200 per month easily for the next two years, not only will you have two thirds of the money needed to get your PPL, you will also KNOW that you can afford the hobby. Start saving now and be ready to start learning in earnest in the Summer of 2012. Having the funds ready will allow you to fly as much as the weather allows.

Good luck

tp

[tggzzz]

Thirdly, I worry about the dreaded 'recover from a stall' this is enough to scare the 'sh*t out of me, but I have the flying bug, I love flying and there's only so many trial lessons a man can do, but the though of stalling freaks me out!

Can I suggest you go to a nearby gliding club (see Welcome to the British Gliding Association). It is a lot cheaper than powered flying and, IMHO, much more fun (and my daughter agrees). In addition it is a great way of getting over a fears of simple aerobatics.

Gliders habitually fly close to the stall speed, including while turning sharply in thermals - on technique in older gliders is to reduce the airspeed until the pre-stall buffet is felt, and then to increase speed by a couple of knots. For this reason, stalling, wingdrops and spinning are a normal part of pre-solo training. I'm sure you'll be overwhelmed by your first spin, but soon they become uneventful. It isn't abnormal to enter and recover from three spins after a 1500ft launch!

Moral: confront your fears in a controlled environment, and you'll find you can avoid/deal with the situation as appropriate.

[BackPacker]

I'm sure you'll be overwhelmed by your first spin, but soon they become uneventful. It isn't abnormal to enter and recover from three spins after a 1500ft launch!

On the other hand, I've spun both gliders and powered aircraft and the spin characteristics are totally, wildly different. A spin in a glider is a really sedate affair and a one-turn spin will cost you maybe 200-300 feet in altitude. In a powered aircraft it's a really violent affair and one turn may cost you 800-1000 feet in altitude - in an aircraft that's cleared for spinning and has desirable spin behaviour. Spin a twin-engined aircraft and 10.000 feet might not be enough.

Reason for the totally different behaviour? Wing/fuselage length/weight of gliders vs. powered aircraft, plus the fact that all the high mass elements of a glider (essentially the occupant(s) only) are all concentrated around the CofG. In a powered aircraft there's a lot of mass (engine(s), fuel, occupant(s), baggage) quite a distance away from the CofG, leading to far more polar inertia. And that really hurts the ability to recover from a spin.

So if you've only ever spun gliders and think you'll be fine applying the same recovery techniques, altitude calculations and particularly complacency to spinning powered aircraft, well, you're in for a nasty surprise.

[NazgulAir]

If you can save £200 per month easily for the next two years, not only will you have two thirds of the money needed to get your PPL, you will also KNOW that you can afford the hobby. Start saving now and be ready to start learning in earnest in the Summer of 2012. Having the funds ready will allow you to fly as much as the weather allows.

That's how I did it, and it worked very well.
After the frustration of being able to afford only one hour per month and nothing to DO after getting all the theory stuff and R/T out of the way, I stopped and saved up for two years. Then I booked lessons almost every weekend, and finished inside of three months.

[tggzzz]

So if you've only ever spun gliders and think you'll be fine applying the same recovery techniques, altitude calculations and particularly complacency to spinning powered aircraft, well, you're in for a nasty surprise.

Very true. But - arguably - for a person that is very cautious about stalls, it might be helpful to see that it is possible to cope with more "interesting" manoeuvres. It all depends on the individual involved.

[WishesToFly]

First penny in the pot!

Good Afternoon!

Well, after much consideration regarding the financing of my lessons, I completely agree that I can afford £200 a month after paying bills. I had to have a think about what I could afford and what I could cut back on, but after reviewing my finances, it looks like I could draw out £50 per week and be able to cope with ease. I honestly didn't think I could afford to save £200 a month but to be honest who needs the XL bundle on cable and do I really need extra this and extra that (no I dont!). Do I want my PPL....ol yes!

So guys, I have drawn out £50 today and its going in the 'tin of no return'.

It is a kind of good feeling to know that I have already started! Just my way of feeling positive!

...By the way what does an actual licence look like? Just out of curiosity? is it similar to a driving license style card? CAA I'm assuming?

Kind Regards.

Alex

[24Carrot]

...By the way what does an actual licence look like? Just out of curiosity? is it similar to a driving license style card? CAA I'm assuming?

Quite like your medical certificate, if you have that - just words typed in boxes on grey A4 paper.
The plastic cover is a unique shade of brown usually referred to as "poo".

The rotary PPL cover is equally plastic but a much more pleasant shade of silvery grey.

[ChampChump]

Welcome to world of the cash-strapped, but spiritually fulfilled....

To add to the advice above, please don't dismiss the NPPL, whether microlight or motor-gliding, in your route towards your licence. There may be more of a club atmosphere than can exist at some training establishments, which might not seem pertinent now, but certainly seems to affect people later on, when the initial gloss of the new PPL starts to lose its lustre. I'm sure the 'grass roots' tribes, in various forms, have prevented many falling out of flying when the novelty wears off.

I am not deriding any of the training routes, by the way. I am just very aware of how easy it is to lose the enthusiastic Alexes possibly because they don't get connected with the areas of aviation that might suit them. It's less likely with Forumites, but what of all the rest?

I arrived with my PPL Group A via gliding and then a PPL SLMG. With some hours towards those required granted from the gliding, there was a slight boost psychologically as well. Motor gliders are way cheaper to operate, so much so that my first seven years' ownership was of the venerable Falke, despite having already acquired the group A bit. Hire of a Cub and 150 kept me happy until the day came to change the Falke for a Permit aircraft. Things have changed a little since then, but the equivalent exists.

Had I continued to hire, rather than own, which makes more sense for those flying, say, fewer than 50 years a year, I would have settled eventually in one club or another, I'm sure.

[Teejman]

Alex,

I live maybe 5 miles from you and doing my PPL at Stapleford, two reasons are no landing fees and I have a very helpful instructor.

Regarding saving why not open up a high interest savings account that you can only make 3 or so withdrawals a year. They normally have a slightly higher interest rate. Set up an automatic transfer when your pay goes in. I did this many years ago for something and after a couple of months you find you don't miss it. If you can put any extra in- bonus!

Like you I was in fear of stalling but after doing a few got used to them.

PM me if you want any more info on my decision to go to Stapleford.