Gliders and near misses.

[Snap]

With last weekends fatal glider collision in Worcestershire and the news today that a Tornado and a glider came within 100ft of collision near Brize last year is it about time that gliders were forced to take some responsibility for thier actions?

Anyone who flies GA aircraft will know that it is extremely difficult to spot a glider unless its in a turn and downright impossible if its on a headon course .

Near Kemble the other day I saw a glider with orange dayglow stripes which was highly visible and allowed me to take avoiding action in plenty of time. Why is it that most gliders are rendered almost invisible to the naked eye. Whilst i recognise that Powered flight ac must give way to gliders I object to vast areas of lower airspace being effectivley out of bounds due to gliding activities and what appears to be brash disregard to any form of conspicuity at all.

[wysiwyg]

One of the disadvantages of composite structures (of which most modern gliders are manufactured) is that the heating effect of sunlight weakens the structure. As a result, they are mostly painted white with some form of colour at the extremities where there is low structural load.
Surely nowadays we have the technology to overcome this problem, although I guess the costs of re-gel coating (in a lightproof material) would be prohibitive for any secondhand machine.

[Snap]

I understand that but surley something could be done. They seem to WANT to be inconspicuous and then blame powered types when they get too close.

[Mr moto]

Extremely difficult to see unless they're turning?
What do you suppose gliders do for probably 90% of their flight time?

This is a debate you'll never win because pound for pound glider pilots are better airmen than power pilots!

About a quarter of the members of the gliding club I belong to are airline pilots who only fly powered aircraft for money or as a tug.

So you're actually saying you can't see on a map where there's intense gliding activity?

Or is your understanding of meteorology so poor that you don't know how a cumulus works?

Glass fibre designs have that aforementioned disadvantage caused by heat but what is the basic colour of the vast majority of the GA fleet?

Gosh! Its white with a couple of go faster stripes, isn't it?

[yellowperil]

Snap,

There have been experiments done to increase glider visibility; a study carried out by Cranfield University, supported by the BGA and conducted using Grob 109’s at RAFGSA Centre at Bicester concluded they weren’t much good. Day-glo stripes were applied to the leading edges, similar to the markings on ATC gliders and they were ‘spotted’ (or not) compared to unmarked 109’s.

The conclusion was “there is evidence that breaking up the outline of an aircraft by painting it or adding stripes may make it more difficult to detect”, after the motorgliders failed to see each other… I read this report (Flashes don’t show up well in sight test) in the Dec 2000 – Jan 2001 issue of Sailplane and Gliding magazine.

Previous evidence suggests that the best colour for glider conspicuity is black, but as was pointed out, this is not possible due to their GRP construction.

However, there is no substitute for looking out of the window when you’re flying, and I think that glider pilots tend to do this more than powered pilots. Given a glider is always on the lookout for thermal energy to stay airborne, you have to keep your eyes out of the cockpit and connect them to your brain. This is even more the case when there are other gliders around, let alone trying to join your thermal in your blind spot…

Contrast this with some power jockey flying his (or her) instruments, glancing out of the window to confirm what the GPS is already saying…!?!

Extreme examples I’m sure you’ll agree, but I hope you take the point. Don’t forget that when you don’t have an engine you can hear things, like someone else’s engine, and you tend to try and see where the noise is coming from, especially if it’s heading towards you and is clear that the other pilot hasn’t noticed you’re there…! And yes, powered aircraft should give way to gliders.

And as for the military charging around like they’re the only ones in the sky, well that’s nothing new is it?!?

I think the motto is that there is no substitute for good lookout, and to expect the unexpected! Glider pilots know to look out for powered aircraft (they get us into the sky!), do you know to look out for gliders?!?

yp

[sam_flying]

Just my two penny's worth.....

I practically live at a gliding airfield...and very regularly see aircraft fly overhead at heights which our winch cables can quite easily reach. I have also had to take action to get out of the way of a group of Spitfires and a Hurricane as they came home from an airshow last year...transiting right over the airfield seeming oblivious to the thirty or forty gliders in the area.

However - I have often wondered why gliders do not have nav lights or something similar. Everyone has probably seen the little flashing red lights that people put on their bicycles...they are very small and battery powered...and also very bright. I wonder why couldn't these be 'stuck' on the end of each wing of a glider. They are lightweight and very easy to maintain, plus cheap...and would make gliders a hell of a lot easier to see.

Just my humble opinion...trust me I know what its like to get too close to a glider whilst flying a powered aircraft!!!

Sam

[Kray]

Snap, please let us all know when you're flying, so we can keep ourselves safely on the ground.

Gliders are only difficult to spot if you don't keep a good lookout. Power pilots(I have 90hrs) are notoriously bad at not keeping a good lookout, the sit as if they are in a car, looking ahead only, also fumbling around with maps, gps's, charts etc.

As as glider pilot also(70hrs), I spend my entire time looking out of the cockpit, especially looking for other aircraft. The one instrument which glider pilots use predominantly is audiable. This is so we can spend all our time looking out, not head down in the cockpit. There's then the other reasons, looking out for other gliders, soaring birds, changing clouds, location of building clouds etc which are essential to a glider pilot. Chances are we'll have seen you before you've seen us.

Then there's the weather. If you go flying on a good summers day, especially if it's a blue sky with lots of tidy cumulus clouds around, there will be more gliders in the air than powered aircraft. We tend to fly under these nice clouds, and also staight down cloud streets, under them. Tip: Try and fly in the blue bits, as we spend less time in them.

None of this lower airspace is effectivly out of bounds to you. If you can't keep a good lookout, it's probably safer if you fly IFR at altitude, and ATC can do the lookout instead.

You also mentioned a Tornado missing a glider by 100'. I don't reacall a glider ever being hit by a fast jet, however, I do recall collisions and near misses between light aircraft and fast jets(Aerial photography aircraft for example).

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think that glider pilots are more sinned against than sinning, but...

(1) It can't be that hard to put stobes and a power supply on a glider without damaging it's performance.

(2) Yellow and orange are also very visible but still reflect UV and thus don't damage the GRP.

(3) When you spot an aircraft that hasn't seen you (and flying microlights much of the time, I understand the problem well) it is sensible to tip your wing planform so that the other chap can see it. I do this regularly in the microlight, and don't see why a glider pilot can't rather than just ignoring the other traffic - which is legally correct but poor airmanship.

(4) It would be no trouble at-all to stick a Luneberg lense within a glider fuselage, making sure that you show up on primary returns.

G

[FNG]

engage whinge mode

What is it with Private Flying at the moment? The same threads come around at roughly monthly or six weekly intervals (just like Cessnas in the Cranfield circuit?). I appreciate that this is a pan-pprune phenomenon, but we seem to be getting an unusual dose of it at the moment.

As for the thread itself, as a powered punter but incipent glider wannabe, I'm with you guys. Snap: If you're worried about gliders, don't go near their sites (hint: look for the big "guh" on the map) don't fly along ridges etc, and try looking out of the window instead of at the GPS for a change.

whinge mode disengaged

PS: always possible that this thread is a wind up, in which case it is most welcome as perhaps we get as bit serious in here sometimes, but probably not as a winder-upper would be unlikely to refer to a fatal accident as a starting point.

PPS: I must have been visiting Jet Blast too often lately as otherwise (1) I wouldn't be paranoid about wind-ups and (2) I wouldn't have gone into full rant at Mr Snap. Final 3 Greens' post below this one does after all contain some balanced points.

[ 20 July 2001: Message edited by: FNG ]

[Final 3 Greens]

Having started off in gliders in 1980 and converted to power later there is no doubt in my mind that gliders are more difficult to spot than other aircraft, excepting some microlights; I usually see a glint of reflected sunlight from the wings as they turn.

I find the attitude of some glider pilots rather arrogant "We are better pilots" - frankly I don't want to be in a competition, just safe. I also find the attitude of some power pilots to be arrogant too, so I am not anti glider.

If I see other traffic in the vicinity, I usually rock my wings or do a mild S turn to give them a better chance of seeing me as it is movement that attracts the attention of the eye as we all know.

Glider pilots, please do not overlook that:

1 Powered pilots tend to have a greater workload (e.g. engine and radio to manage)

2 They are usually covering the ground faster than gliders therefore have more of a changing sky to scan

3 Gliders are only one set of traffic to scan for - we do not wish to fixate on Cu, the "blue bits" also contain traffic too

I agree with Genghis' comments, both about sinning and also ways of being safer.

Let's understand each other's problems and try to fly safely.

[Squawk 8888]

Further to that I'd suggest that glider jockeys take a look at the charts just as we do. I saw the glider field on the chart near my track, but did you guys see the Victor airway 5 miles from your field? I encountered a glider thermalling in the centreline just ahead of me, I was able to avoid him but what about the faster guys flying IFR not much higher up? I know they have to maintain a lookout in VMC regardless of the flight rules they're using, but assuming the other fella sees you can be fatal.

[Snap]

All I was trying to do here was work out why gliders are so inconspicuous and what could be done about it to make ALL our lives safer.

As for the personal abuse apart from being counter productive I find it quite amusing that some comes from someone called Kray. Now Im sure that your a nice chap and all that but with 90 hours in your logbook I`d wait until you have a little more experience before slagging off someone who has prooved
themselves. ie Me.

I do look out and have done so for 2000+ hours without serious incident and as for "letting you know when I`m in the air so you can stay on the ground" Ive hauled more green pilots out of the S**T than your ever likley to and next time your in trouble you had better pray to god that your as competent as me.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Snap and Kray, do you think you could conduct your vendettas in private.

On a more serious note, I think that those of us used to gliders, microlights and light helicopters should bear in mind that, workload aside, our ability to lookout is much better than anybody's possibly could be in your average light aircraft - we have less to worry about and less obstructions to a true 360° lookout. It doesn't excuse poor lookout in a light aircraft, but they do have the odds more against them than we do.

Gliders and microlights are probably the hardest thing to see in the air, especially end-on. So a small "landing light" in nose and tail is probably the most useful low-power aid to visibility. A tad harder to fit a light in the tail of a microlight (that whirly thing up the back) but not impossible, and a trivial problem for a glider.

G

[ 20 July 2001: Message edited by: Genghis the Engineer ]

[trolleydollylover]

I must agree with snap as we have had many conversations about this and have spent a couple of hundred hours flying together. I must admit that there is very little that we haven't seen together and apart from a few tech problems both of us agree that most of our workload is spent transiting around glider sites. I am afraid to say gentlemen that you are very difficult if not impossible to see.

We know where you hang out and areas that you are likely to be, but believe it or not the UK airspace is very very crowded.

It is a shame to say it but there are bad pilots in all catagories. The post was about what can be done about being conspicuous not that you have 150 hrs. So lets get back to the point and look at what can be done by owners, before you are regulated.

Does anybody have any idea how many gliders and microlights for that matter have a radio and transponder.

[Mr moto]

What's a 2000hr+ chap putting a thread like this on the Wannabe Forum?

Anyway, I've always found gliders quite easy to see. The sun flashing on the entire high gloss spam is a dead giveaway.
When they're going cross country, straight, they can be going as fast as most spam-cans but any aircraft head-on is a hard target to spot.

I'm often amazed how hard it can be even when the TCAS is telling you exactly where to look.

A friend of mine died in a collision with a Cherokee descending out of the sun.

Incidentally, what's wrong with a competition for who's the safest?
It seves to improve the standards on all sides.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think you'll find that a large proportion of microlights routinely carry radios, but not that many gliders. Ditto strobes.

You won't find transponders in many of either - at £1500+ for a transponder in an aircraft that probably cost less than £10k not many operators can justify the cost.

G

[Snap]

The reason I put this thread on wannabees is that I felt I could learn something about the gliding fraternity best from this forum and as Ive learned lots of useful stuff from lower houred pilots as well as the more experienced. I thought, rightly apart from a few misfits, that here would be were a few people who know something about gliding would hang out.

I realise that gliders have every right to be in the air but a battery powered transponder can be had for 1200 quid which is a small price to pay and a tranciever for 400 or so which would have be useful to ATC at an aerodrome myself and Trolley were at the other day when a glider turned up unannounced scattering two student pilots and a heli to the four winds.

We as fixed powered pilots have a huge amount of legislation to deal with, admittedly most of it claptrap, but whats the use of only some of us airmen/women abiding by the same rules. Some form of conspicuity, be it strobes, transponders,dayglow stripes etc must become compulosry on gliders before we all regret our inaction. Handheld Radios are a MUST. Surley thats not too much to
ask!

[trolleydollylover]

I agree but the appropriate representaion for spelling and syntax errors!

Look out, look out, cause trolley is about!

[Speedbird252]

Final Three Greens calls it totally correct.

Lets work together here.

Nuff said.

[SOHCAHTOA]

Surely gliders are not the only aircraft difficult to see.
I fly a small PFA aircraft which is a bugger to see on some days.
I agree gliders, due to their profile, are difficult to spot and anything that can be done to make them more high-vis can only be a good thing and that also relates to ALL aircraft.
Keeping a good look out is your first line of defence especially when you spot gliding activity marked on your map (remember the days before we sat staring at the GPS )