The CAA:
Guest
Posts: n/a
The CAA:
I am against the CAA. Some sort of organisation is needed for private flying but they're taking things too far. They are gradually ruining flying with their rules and regulations and their stupid bureaucracy.
For example, I readin Pilot magazine of one person who hada very mild stroke while playing squash. However they were ok and even finished their game. A doctor said they were ok and fit to fly. This person made the mistake of telling the CAA who despite him being a ppl in good health confiscated his medical. When he asked for it they wouldnt give it back. Then they kept it. They might still have it. What gives theses stupid, uninformed bureaucrats the right to take away his right to fly? Things like this happen all the time. A few years ago you couldnt even do aerobatics in Tiger Moths because the CAA said so.
Then, after years they realised there was nothing wrong with it and allowed it, but look at how long it took!
They need to be strict to make air transport a profitable, safe business but they are entangling private flying in this sticky quagmire of rules and restrictions. Perhaps a separate organisation would be a good idea. Why should they own the skies? If someone with a 1 in 100,000 chance of having a heart attack in the air wants to fly then it should be up to them , not some idiot behind a desk somwhere.
Private flying is not that bad right now but things are going downhill and I bet that in 20 years private flying will have been mutialted by air corridors, rules, restrictions and so forth.
Does anyone lese think the CAA are "going that way"?
Im adding this bit now to say that I have changed my views to agree that the CAA is necessary and that it would be better to try to work with the CAA than against it as with so many planes about some sort of organisation is needed to make it safe and organised. Due to the largeness of it obviously a few mistakes will be made but that cannot be helped. Id like it more if it was like it was in the 30s but nowadays that is not practical or safe so I agree we need the CAA and should work with them.
[ 24 July 2001: Message edited by: Tiger_ Moth ]
For example, I readin Pilot magazine of one person who hada very mild stroke while playing squash. However they were ok and even finished their game. A doctor said they were ok and fit to fly. This person made the mistake of telling the CAA who despite him being a ppl in good health confiscated his medical. When he asked for it they wouldnt give it back. Then they kept it. They might still have it. What gives theses stupid, uninformed bureaucrats the right to take away his right to fly? Things like this happen all the time. A few years ago you couldnt even do aerobatics in Tiger Moths because the CAA said so.
Then, after years they realised there was nothing wrong with it and allowed it, but look at how long it took!
They need to be strict to make air transport a profitable, safe business but they are entangling private flying in this sticky quagmire of rules and restrictions. Perhaps a separate organisation would be a good idea. Why should they own the skies? If someone with a 1 in 100,000 chance of having a heart attack in the air wants to fly then it should be up to them , not some idiot behind a desk somwhere.
Private flying is not that bad right now but things are going downhill and I bet that in 20 years private flying will have been mutialted by air corridors, rules, restrictions and so forth.
Does anyone lese think the CAA are "going that way"?
Im adding this bit now to say that I have changed my views to agree that the CAA is necessary and that it would be better to try to work with the CAA than against it as with so many planes about some sort of organisation is needed to make it safe and organised. Due to the largeness of it obviously a few mistakes will be made but that cannot be helped. Id like it more if it was like it was in the 30s but nowadays that is not practical or safe so I agree we need the CAA and should work with them.
[ 24 July 2001: Message edited by: Tiger_ Moth ]
Guest
Posts: n/a
"This person made the mistake of telling the CAA who despite him being a ppl in good health confiscated his medical."
Sorry!...this person did the right thing telling the CAA, it wasn't a mistake...the CAA took away his medical for his own safety and everyone elses, in the air and on the ground !!!
But having met most of the Senior Management in Flight Operations and within the GA section most are ex high ranking RAF types....kind of say's alot !!!!
------------------
I've Got Bad Attitude!
Sorry!...this person did the right thing telling the CAA, it wasn't a mistake...the CAA took away his medical for his own safety and everyone elses, in the air and on the ground !!!
But having met most of the Senior Management in Flight Operations and within the GA section most are ex high ranking RAF types....kind of say's alot !!!!
------------------
I've Got Bad Attitude!
Guest
Posts: n/a
Hey Tiger, you still seem to be a bit over opinionated for someone who hasnt started flying yet. Yes there are problems with General Aviation and the CAA, somethings are improving, and some things arent. I remember you recently raving on about the new NPPL and what a great idea it was, it wont happen without the CAA`s help - Lets try and be constructive and specific with the critisism, as slagging them off like this doesnt achieve anything. Least of all your credibility.
Join Date: Jan 1999
Location: north of barlu
Posts: 6,207
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Like all things the CAA has some good points and some bad ,iv found the engineering section very good over the years both for aircraft tech problems and ground engineer licencing.
The medical people are a lot more practical than the JAA and recently have dumped some of the JAA tests on the grounds that the tests had no flight safety implications.
Flight crew licencing is a national discrace the level of service and the charges are at the opposite ends of what one would expect from a public body
I have had exam results lossed ,money not returned and was sent another guys log book and licence !.
To top this off i now hear that ground engineer licencing has been taken over by this bunch of half witts.
I think that if i did my job as well as the head of FCL i would have been fired long ago and it is my opinion that its time that the upper management of FCL had some time on the dole.
The medical people are a lot more practical than the JAA and recently have dumped some of the JAA tests on the grounds that the tests had no flight safety implications.
Flight crew licencing is a national discrace the level of service and the charges are at the opposite ends of what one would expect from a public body
I have had exam results lossed ,money not returned and was sent another guys log book and licence !.
To top this off i now hear that ground engineer licencing has been taken over by this bunch of half witts.
I think that if i did my job as well as the head of FCL i would have been fired long ago and it is my opinion that its time that the upper management of FCL had some time on the dole.
Guest
Posts: n/a
The problem of pen-pushers ruling how we should conduct our flying careers seems to be a problem in just about every country.
I personally believe that, despite some of the more despicable actions taken by CAA, you do actually need someone to educate and ensure safety standards. This education and regulation of standards should be, I believe, the primary role of any aviation authority such as CAA. Their role should be to provide safe skies for both aircrew and the public living below them or travelling as passengers. This can not be done if feelings of distrust between the authority and pilots exists.
So lets stop moaning and talk to them, tell them what we want, what we expect from them as pilots!
Kermie
I personally believe that, despite some of the more despicable actions taken by CAA, you do actually need someone to educate and ensure safety standards. This education and regulation of standards should be, I believe, the primary role of any aviation authority such as CAA. Their role should be to provide safe skies for both aircrew and the public living below them or travelling as passengers. This can not be done if feelings of distrust between the authority and pilots exists.
So lets stop moaning and talk to them, tell them what we want, what we expect from them as pilots!
Kermie
Guest
Posts: n/a
The problem is a much bigger issue than the CAA itself. Like any regulatory body the CAA needs to consult (yes it does) with those it regulates. However in the UK there is no one body that covers the majority of PPLs. The schemes run with the PFA and BMAA for aircraft certification and engineering work extremely well and I beleive the CAA would be happy to devolve more of its GA responsibilities to such organisations if there was someone to delegate it too. In the USA AOPA is a very powerful political body reprasenting the majority of PPLs. In the UK I think it reprasents less than 10%.
I beleive the NPPL will be a success but it has only got this far because the major GA bodies worked together with the CAA.
I beleive the NPPL will be a success but it has only got this far because the major GA bodies worked together with the CAA.
Guest
Posts: n/a
"What gives theses stupid, uninformed bureaucrats the right to take away his right to fly?"
Now let me think. When a pilot of an aircraft becomes incapacitated because of a medical problem does:
a) he release the "dead mans handle" on the control column, the aircraft sense this, fly to the nearest ILS equipped airfield and land safely or
b) the aircraft crash, possibly on me?
It ain't just the pilot that gets hurt when an aircraft goes down....
Now let me think. When a pilot of an aircraft becomes incapacitated because of a medical problem does:
a) he release the "dead mans handle" on the control column, the aircraft sense this, fly to the nearest ILS equipped airfield and land safely or
b) the aircraft crash, possibly on me?
It ain't just the pilot that gets hurt when an aircraft goes down....
Guest
Posts: n/a
But what happens if I have a heart attack when driving my car? I may cross to the other side of the road and have a head-on with an innocent 3rd party - or I may wipe out a bus queue, or I may just hit a wall with no 3rd party casualties.
In my aeroplane, anyone with me who'se not a pilot will probably die with me, but they knew that risk when they came for the flight. The chance of anyone on the ground being hit is very remote.
Which one poses the greater risk to the General Public? It's important to keep a sense of proportion here.
I'm not anti CAA, though being a QUANGO they have no 'predators' to keep thier powers under reasonable control. But i do think that strict medicals for recreational PPLs are OTT - and the NPL, which the CAA have championed, will address that.
On the other hand, I had my JAA class 2 last week. When you are a fat middle aged stressed-out male like me it's not a bad 130 quid's worth to know that all appears to be in order. having said that, and despite a perfect ECG trace, I know I could keel over anytime - I wouldn't be the first.
SSD
In my aeroplane, anyone with me who'se not a pilot will probably die with me, but they knew that risk when they came for the flight. The chance of anyone on the ground being hit is very remote.
Which one poses the greater risk to the General Public? It's important to keep a sense of proportion here.
I'm not anti CAA, though being a QUANGO they have no 'predators' to keep thier powers under reasonable control. But i do think that strict medicals for recreational PPLs are OTT - and the NPL, which the CAA have championed, will address that.
On the other hand, I had my JAA class 2 last week. When you are a fat middle aged stressed-out male like me it's not a bad 130 quid's worth to know that all appears to be in order. having said that, and despite a perfect ECG trace, I know I could keel over anytime - I wouldn't be the first.
SSD
Guest
Posts: n/a
Shaggy Sheep Driver calls it correctly.
I can live on a diet of chip fat, Mars Bars, beer and tobacco, be grossly overweight and terminally afflicted with road rage, and drive my eighteen-wheeler within three feet of a bus queue of schoolchildren while dodging opposite direction traffic by three feet at a closing speed of 80mph, and neither the CAA nor anyone else will raise a peep. You have to keep risk in perspective.
[This message has been edited by t'aint natural (edited 06 July 2001).]
I can live on a diet of chip fat, Mars Bars, beer and tobacco, be grossly overweight and terminally afflicted with road rage, and drive my eighteen-wheeler within three feet of a bus queue of schoolchildren while dodging opposite direction traffic by three feet at a closing speed of 80mph, and neither the CAA nor anyone else will raise a peep. You have to keep risk in perspective.
[This message has been edited by t'aint natural (edited 06 July 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
I agree, risk should be put into perspective. I also think the road deaths are for the most part ignored compared to other forms of premature death but that's another story. Back to my original point.... surely it is far easier to stop driving a road vehicle at the onset of a heart attack/stroke/seizure (ie you pull over or even brake in a straight line) than it is to stop flying an aircraft. I find it reassuring that the dozens of light aircraft that fly over my house are being piloted by someone that has at least had some sort of health check in the last few years.
Anyway it is kinda reassuring when just before your fortieth birthday the doctor tears off the ECG readout and goes "Yep, that looks okay to me".
Anyway it is kinda reassuring when just before your fortieth birthday the doctor tears off the ECG readout and goes "Yep, that looks okay to me".
Guest
Posts: n/a
I don't work for the CAA, but have a lot to do with them (I work for two GA organisations, both of which seem reasonably sane and rational most of the time).
Lets be fair, even the CAA know that they don't understand much about GA. They don't help themselves by filling slots in FCL and GAD with retired airforce types, but anyway, they are trying hard to delegate as much as possible to the big associations.
If you're not a member of PFA / BMAA / BGA / BBAC, etc. why not? These chaps are cheaper, more sensible, more efficient, and largely staffed by people who fly the class of aircraft they're dealing with.
Whingeing about the CAA, which is set up to protect the public and organise the high-value air-transport industry is pointless. What makes sense is to get involved with the large flying organisations, and to work with them to make life easier. The NPPL is a good example, where the main airsports organisations have persuaded the CAA to delegate something to people with more understanding and a vested interest in keeping it simple.
If you want to see how things ought to be, look at Microlights or Gliders, then ask yourself how to get the same for whatever it is that you are flying? But you won't do it on your own, and certainly won't do it by simply whinging about those chaps down at the Belgrano.
G
[This message has been edited by Genghis the Engineer (edited 06 July 2001).]
Lets be fair, even the CAA know that they don't understand much about GA. They don't help themselves by filling slots in FCL and GAD with retired airforce types, but anyway, they are trying hard to delegate as much as possible to the big associations.
If you're not a member of PFA / BMAA / BGA / BBAC, etc. why not? These chaps are cheaper, more sensible, more efficient, and largely staffed by people who fly the class of aircraft they're dealing with.
Whingeing about the CAA, which is set up to protect the public and organise the high-value air-transport industry is pointless. What makes sense is to get involved with the large flying organisations, and to work with them to make life easier. The NPPL is a good example, where the main airsports organisations have persuaded the CAA to delegate something to people with more understanding and a vested interest in keeping it simple.
If you want to see how things ought to be, look at Microlights or Gliders, then ask yourself how to get the same for whatever it is that you are flying? But you won't do it on your own, and certainly won't do it by simply whinging about those chaps down at the Belgrano.
G
[This message has been edited by Genghis the Engineer (edited 06 July 2001).]
Guest
Posts: n/a
Speedbird, I never said I liked the NPPL, I might have asked a question about it but
I never said I was for it. I dont really have an opinion on it.
JB of course they did the wrong thing, look what happened to them! It wasnt serious, they finished their game of squash!
The thing is that you could rightly say they are putting more people at danger by driving a car which is true. Flying a plane, especially when PPL and so more likely to be away from highly populated areas presents very little danger to the public. As the risk is so small, especially when compared to other things the person carries on doing, the decision should be left to the individual and not some person who really doesnt know much about it.
I know you need rigid rules and stuff for aviation as a profitable and safe industry but what I think is that private, recreational flying should be separated from it so that it isnt bogged down by the strictness of the business side of aviation.
Someone said that I dont know anything about this which is not that true. I might not be a pilot but through reading over the years I do know a fair bit about GA, but admittedly probably not as much as a lot of you.
Anyway I think I can still see this downward trend of GA and you have to admit that as time goes by the number of restrictions and rules in GA increase and a large reason of this is due to it being linked to the business side of it. Private flying is not at all bad now, but I am just predicting that it will, as time goes by, get pulled down a bit.
Many of you say that the CAA have a big job which is hard to do given the sie and I agree which is why they should be relieved of this responsibility which is understandably hard to carry out as they deal with things as diverse as Long distance cargo flights in massive aircraft from busy airports down to tiny aircraft buzzing about grass strips.
What'ya say?
I never said I was for it. I dont really have an opinion on it.
JB of course they did the wrong thing, look what happened to them! It wasnt serious, they finished their game of squash!
The thing is that you could rightly say they are putting more people at danger by driving a car which is true. Flying a plane, especially when PPL and so more likely to be away from highly populated areas presents very little danger to the public. As the risk is so small, especially when compared to other things the person carries on doing, the decision should be left to the individual and not some person who really doesnt know much about it.
I know you need rigid rules and stuff for aviation as a profitable and safe industry but what I think is that private, recreational flying should be separated from it so that it isnt bogged down by the strictness of the business side of aviation.
Someone said that I dont know anything about this which is not that true. I might not be a pilot but through reading over the years I do know a fair bit about GA, but admittedly probably not as much as a lot of you.
Anyway I think I can still see this downward trend of GA and you have to admit that as time goes by the number of restrictions and rules in GA increase and a large reason of this is due to it being linked to the business side of it. Private flying is not at all bad now, but I am just predicting that it will, as time goes by, get pulled down a bit.
Many of you say that the CAA have a big job which is hard to do given the sie and I agree which is why they should be relieved of this responsibility which is understandably hard to carry out as they deal with things as diverse as Long distance cargo flights in massive aircraft from busy airports down to tiny aircraft buzzing about grass strips.
What'ya say?
Guest
Posts: n/a
Tiger Moth, why don't you apply for a job with the CAA? With your forsight, knowledge and wisdom you could make aviation a better place. They could then release all the doctors, pilots and engineers to more important jobs in the sound knowledge that nothing will fall out of the sky onto our heads. You might even become Chief Dim Wit in a few years!
Guest
Posts: n/a
This is the story of a man who did apply to the CAA for a job:
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/004535.html
http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/For...ML/004535.html
Guest
Posts: n/a
Military aircrew have the advantage that they have been trained in, and have experience in flying, training, planning and administration. The skills of many civil trained pilots are limited to just flying aeroplanes, unfortunately that does not equip them particularly well for regulatory administration.
The CAA personnel selectors did for a while move towards the recruitment of civil rather than ex-military flyers, as with most things the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
The CAA personnel selectors did for a while move towards the recruitment of civil rather than ex-military flyers, as with most things the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
To be fair, how many top-quality people from civil aviation have ever applied for a job at the CAA? By this I mean company Chief Engineers, club CFIs, Senior administrators from the airlines, etc. Very few I suspect.
I know many people at CAA, most of whom are either ex-RAF, or moved after being made redundant as BAe closed yet another site. I honestly don't know if many people from our side of the fence actually apply for these jobs? I certainly haven't - have you ever visited the towns around Gatwick?
Just for the record Tiger Moth, do you actually belong to any of the airsports organisations?
G
[ 07 July 2001: Message edited by: Genghis the Engineer ]
I know many people at CAA, most of whom are either ex-RAF, or moved after being made redundant as BAe closed yet another site. I honestly don't know if many people from our side of the fence actually apply for these jobs? I certainly haven't - have you ever visited the towns around Gatwick?
Just for the record Tiger Moth, do you actually belong to any of the airsports organisations?
G
[ 07 July 2001: Message edited by: Genghis the Engineer ]
