The CAA:
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Its easy to get complacent, and assume that "they" ought to do something....I hear it about loss of airfields, priveleges, speed cameras etc. The only way that we, as a common user group may attempt to protect our already dwindling resources in terms of airfields, and freedom from excessive regulation etc, is to join AOPA, or PFA, or Action for Airfields. GAAC and any others you can think of. To quote - "for evil to succeed, good many need only do nothing!"
I agree in some respects that the CAA, is in a unique position, as a semi autonomous self regulating Government Agency. It does seem that users, ie., us, have no higher body with whom to lodge any appeals against undesired action/regulations. Such mechanisms do exist in other parts of governement.
Having said that I personally have always found the CAA staff to be helpful, friendly and co-operative, even if they do charge an arm and a leg.....
Tailwinds
I agree in some respects that the CAA, is in a unique position, as a semi autonomous self regulating Government Agency. It does seem that users, ie., us, have no higher body with whom to lodge any appeals against undesired action/regulations. Such mechanisms do exist in other parts of governement.
Having said that I personally have always found the CAA staff to be helpful, friendly and co-operative, even if they do charge an arm and a leg.....
Tailwinds
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Final 3 Greens, surely you're not suggesting some kind of gladiatorial death match between the two factions?
I accept everything you say speedbird. You see I'd like flying to be like in the 20s/30s but I realise that thats just impossible with the advances in technology and numbers of aircraft. Therefore this cant all be blamed on the CAA as I was doing earlier because it was inevitable so although I generally revoke my hasty comments I still do think there is room for improvement and that a few regulations could be brushed aside. I also agree that this is not solely the CAAs responsibility but also the pilots so the two have to work together. I also realise that you have to be specific so Ill just go and find some more examples....
I accept everything you say speedbird. You see I'd like flying to be like in the 20s/30s but I realise that thats just impossible with the advances in technology and numbers of aircraft. Therefore this cant all be blamed on the CAA as I was doing earlier because it was inevitable so although I generally revoke my hasty comments I still do think there is room for improvement and that a few regulations could be brushed aside. I also agree that this is not solely the CAAs responsibility but also the pilots so the two have to work together. I also realise that you have to be specific so Ill just go and find some more examples....
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Thats cool Tiger, dont worry about starting a contraversial topic. As you said, there is much good in this kind of debate, and all the various views are good news, cos sooner or later it will help GA. You are right to air your concerns, youve got a long life of flying Moths ahead of you - if we can all help eachother than it will be worth it.
Im stuck with an ATR72 tonight, think yourself lucky.
Regards!
Im stuck with an ATR72 tonight, think yourself lucky.
Regards!
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I'm not the biggest fan of the CAA or the RAF, but most of the people who work for the CAA are there on merit, (with the possible exception of FCL, when the phrases brewery,pissup & couldnt come to mind).
Few people realise the work that they put in to ensure that initial standards are sufficiantly stringent to comply with safety and good practices.
The sort of thing that ensures that when an engineer works on your aircraft, he's trained and competent and only uses the proper parts, (no squashed coke cans instead of washers - yes it has happened!).
The standards that ensure that all pilots, atco's, licensed airfields and others at the sharp end of aviation work to the best practices.
I'm sure everyone has their little story about how the CAA have failed them at some time or other - it would be interesting to see if they can back them up.
Far from being office bound pen pushers, the staff who are responsible for this have a wealth of experience and for the most part are genuinely passionate about maintaining standards and helping out whenever they can.
The day to start moaning is when they are'nt there looking over your shoulder, because that's the day the cowboys move in with the invitable consequences for you, your aircraft, and your wallet.
Few people realise the work that they put in to ensure that initial standards are sufficiantly stringent to comply with safety and good practices.
The sort of thing that ensures that when an engineer works on your aircraft, he's trained and competent and only uses the proper parts, (no squashed coke cans instead of washers - yes it has happened!).
The standards that ensure that all pilots, atco's, licensed airfields and others at the sharp end of aviation work to the best practices.
I'm sure everyone has their little story about how the CAA have failed them at some time or other - it would be interesting to see if they can back them up.
Far from being office bound pen pushers, the staff who are responsible for this have a wealth of experience and for the most part are genuinely passionate about maintaining standards and helping out whenever they can.
The day to start moaning is when they are'nt there looking over your shoulder, because that's the day the cowboys move in with the invitable consequences for you, your aircraft, and your wallet.
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Won't you people let this topic die??
Everyone comes into it, reads my initial hasty remarks, then disagrees but they havent read my latest replies which go back on a lot of it.
Spoon I would generally be more in favour of less intervention than more intervention from the CAA in private flying as the risk is small anyway and the consequences, if there are any will usually effect the individual: crashing in a field, its not like its a 747 crashing in some city centre.
I didnt know there was anything wrong with the RAF now, apart from their lack of flying, is there?
Anyway, lets all let this topic die gracefully, starting now.
Everyone comes into it, reads my initial hasty remarks, then disagrees but they havent read my latest replies which go back on a lot of it.
Spoon I would generally be more in favour of less intervention than more intervention from the CAA in private flying as the risk is small anyway and the consequences, if there are any will usually effect the individual: crashing in a field, its not like its a 747 crashing in some city centre.
I didnt know there was anything wrong with the RAF now, apart from their lack of flying, is there?
Anyway, lets all let this topic die gracefully, starting now.
Join Date: Feb 2001
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Personally (over 18 years on & off)I've only had the best service from the CAA: friendly, professional, fairly prompt, and ever concerned and compassionate when both FCL & I thought they had lost my old license and some personal effects(subsequently found in my flight bag)!
Of course they regulate us, sometimes to a degree that we may not appreciate but the alternaive is probably much worse..... I don't doubt some of the horror stories are true, but there needs to be balance.
Of course they regulate us, sometimes to a degree that we may not appreciate but the alternaive is probably much worse..... I don't doubt some of the horror stories are true, but there needs to be balance.
Not so N, but still FG
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Hey Tigger, I believe that, as the originator of the thread, you can lock it. If this is not so, try a polite email to one of the moderators and thay may close it for you.
The Original Whirly
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Tiger Moth, whoa there, it's OK! 
You started what was always going to be a controversial subject, but it's generated some good discussion. And I don't think some of the latest posters have been attacking you at all, just giving their opinions. Personally I think the whole thread has been a good contribution to PPRuNe, and thanks for starting it. I'd be happy if it ran and ran. But if you've really had enough you can always delete the thread.
You started what was always going to be a controversial subject, but it's generated some good discussion. And I don't think some of the latest posters have been attacking you at all, just giving their opinions. Personally I think the whole thread has been a good contribution to PPRuNe, and thanks for starting it. I'd be happy if it ran and ran. But if you've really had enough you can always delete the thread.
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just to perpetuate your thread a bit more 
You could always edit your first post to tell everyone you've changed your opinion and demonstrate your growing ability to start accepting criticism if you've flown off the handle a little!
[and I'll edit mine coz I can't spool or tupe]
[ 18 July 2001: Message edited by: Gash Handlin ]
You could always edit your first post to tell everyone you've changed your opinion and demonstrate your growing ability to start accepting criticism if you've flown off the handle a little!
[and I'll edit mine coz I can't spool or tupe]
[ 18 July 2001: Message edited by: Gash Handlin ]
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You only have to be nice to the staff at the CAA to get treated well, FCL is run (generally) by a bunch of very nice people, who deal with up to 100 pilots a day each, pis*ing and moaning about things that you don't like, will not get you far.
The CAA are there to help you and everyone affected by aviation safety, even if it seems that sometimes they just want to stop you getting in the air.
If you are unhappy with the services that PLD provide then complain in writing (with clear reasons), I promise you that it is worthwhile.
PS
AOPA were one of the main driving forces behind the PPL being covered under JAR regulations. also the BMA wanted the SLMG's to remain a national.rating
WP
The CAA are there to help you and everyone affected by aviation safety, even if it seems that sometimes they just want to stop you getting in the air.
If you are unhappy with the services that PLD provide then complain in writing (with clear reasons), I promise you that it is worthwhile.
PS
AOPA were one of the main driving forces behind the PPL being covered under JAR regulations. also the BMA wanted the SLMG's to remain a national.rating
WP
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Tiger,
Can I offer some constructive advice. If you have a quibble with something, think before you rant on about it, perhaps even do a little research and get a good idea of what the hell you are talking about. Then post, then for gods sake stand by what you say "yay the NPPL!" becomes "oh no I'm not for the NPPL" and "I hate the CAA" becomes "oh yeah they do a good job at a lot of things", we wont let this die because well basically its a silly thing to say, "abolish the CAA" and it quite frankly annoys some people.
The CAA is made up of doctors, psychologists, pilots, engineers, pen pushers, accountants and probably bakers too, they all pull together to try and make things better, they do actually try very hard, you try organising and regulating Civil Aviation. Yes there are things that annoy us and get on our nerves, but we need to tell the CAA so they can rectify it not slate them for everything they do wrong.
Simple fact of the matter in question, this unfortunate man has had a mild stroke. If you knew anything about Strokes you would realise that a mild stroke leaves the door wide open to an even bigger, deadly stroke, also stroke consequences can lie dormant for ages, so this guy goes flying, crashes, and everyone in the aeroplane perishes, and also someone who they landed on. There is a reason for everything, just a little obscure sometimes.
Sorry people, I'm usually a nice pruner, I just snapped, and feel this had to be said, I know you expect better from me, especially you whirly, *hangs head in shame*
Now go enjoy gettin yer PPL.
Hope it helps,
Regards to all,
Rusty
[ 24 July 2001: Message edited by: Rusty Cessna ]
Can I offer some constructive advice. If you have a quibble with something, think before you rant on about it, perhaps even do a little research and get a good idea of what the hell you are talking about. Then post, then for gods sake stand by what you say "yay the NPPL!" becomes "oh no I'm not for the NPPL" and "I hate the CAA" becomes "oh yeah they do a good job at a lot of things", we wont let this die because well basically its a silly thing to say, "abolish the CAA" and it quite frankly annoys some people.
The CAA is made up of doctors, psychologists, pilots, engineers, pen pushers, accountants and probably bakers too, they all pull together to try and make things better, they do actually try very hard, you try organising and regulating Civil Aviation. Yes there are things that annoy us and get on our nerves, but we need to tell the CAA so they can rectify it not slate them for everything they do wrong.
Simple fact of the matter in question, this unfortunate man has had a mild stroke. If you knew anything about Strokes you would realise that a mild stroke leaves the door wide open to an even bigger, deadly stroke, also stroke consequences can lie dormant for ages, so this guy goes flying, crashes, and everyone in the aeroplane perishes, and also someone who they landed on. There is a reason for everything, just a little obscure sometimes.
Sorry people, I'm usually a nice pruner, I just snapped, and feel this had to be said, I know you expect better from me, especially you whirly, *hangs head in shame*
Now go enjoy gettin yer PPL.
Hope it helps,
Regards to all,
Rusty
[ 24 July 2001: Message edited by: Rusty Cessna ]
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Cessna, what is this business about the NPPL? You say I changed my mind on it but I have never expressed an opinion on it one way or the other.
I agree it would have been a good idea to perhaps research more specific examples and stuff but I did give one example and it was unjust to ground him, its extremely unlikely that he'd expierience one when flying and as a PPL he wouldnt have loads of passengers, any of whom would probably know him and so know about the minor stroke and make their own decisions to fly with him. The chances of him injuring anyone on the ground are also very small and thats only IF he happened to suffer a stroke. The risk was so small that it should have been left up to him to decide. If you ban him from flying then you should also ban him from driving.
I am not too happy with the CAA because of things like this but obviously with such a large organisation a few things are bound to go wrong and the organisation is worthwhile. I would like things to be less controlled but thats impossible and would be quite unsafe as there are so many more planes around nowadays.
I agree it would have been a good idea to perhaps research more specific examples and stuff but I did give one example and it was unjust to ground him, its extremely unlikely that he'd expierience one when flying and as a PPL he wouldnt have loads of passengers, any of whom would probably know him and so know about the minor stroke and make their own decisions to fly with him. The chances of him injuring anyone on the ground are also very small and thats only IF he happened to suffer a stroke. The risk was so small that it should have been left up to him to decide. If you ban him from flying then you should also ban him from driving.
I am not too happy with the CAA because of things like this but obviously with such a large organisation a few things are bound to go wrong and the organisation is worthwhile. I would like things to be less controlled but thats impossible and would be quite unsafe as there are so many more planes around nowadays.
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TM
Is that your considered medical opinion?
I assume you carried out the medical examination on the chap in question and are not just repeating an anecdote you heard in chat one night
oh no thats right, you read it in Pilot, Must be true and accurate then
The medical rules are there for a reason and as with any rule you have to set a limit and stick to it. I don't know what the JAA medical ruling is on history of strokes but whatever it is I'm sure the level of acceptability (if any) wasn't just pulled out of the air but based on sound medical reasoning. If you're unfortunate friend falls outside that limit then that is a great shame for him but the rules are there for the safety of the many.
As you say, the people flying with him would know (assuming he tells them or does he wear a huge sign round his neck?) and have the chance to choose whether the risk was acceptable, but what about everybody else in the air and on the ground underneath his flightpath?
How do you think the general public would react if a pilot with a known medical complaint that was outside of the limits set by the JAA (Notice that again TM the JAAnot the CAA ) were to have a crash and land on someones house or even just near to a built up area, after the CAA had said "well you're outside the limits but we'll give you a licence anyway cos it's pretty unlikely you'll crash.
I think it would be fairly safe to assume that there would be a whole heap of regulation and possibly even class1 medicals required all-round if enough of a fuss was kicked up by the media.
When you start posting serious,considered,intelligent posts people might start taking you seriously, until then think before you start complaining that you aren't being treated fairly.
Rusty
do they regulate the rolls
who looks after the loops and the stall turns?
Is that your considered medical opinion?
I assume you carried out the medical examination on the chap in question and are not just repeating an anecdote you heard in chat one night
oh no thats right, you read it in Pilot, Must be true and accurate then The medical rules are there for a reason and as with any rule you have to set a limit and stick to it. I don't know what the JAA medical ruling is on history of strokes but whatever it is I'm sure the level of acceptability (if any) wasn't just pulled out of the air but based on sound medical reasoning. If you're unfortunate friend falls outside that limit then that is a great shame for him but the rules are there for the safety of the many.
As you say, the people flying with him would know (assuming he tells them or does he wear a huge sign round his neck?) and have the chance to choose whether the risk was acceptable, but what about everybody else in the air and on the ground underneath his flightpath?
How do you think the general public would react if a pilot with a known medical complaint that was outside of the limits set by the JAA (Notice that again TM the JAAnot the CAA ) were to have a crash and land on someones house or even just near to a built up area, after the CAA had said "well you're outside the limits but we'll give you a licence anyway cos it's pretty unlikely you'll crash.
I think it would be fairly safe to assume that there would be a whole heap of regulation and possibly even class1 medicals required all-round if enough of a fuss was kicked up by the media.
When you start posting serious,considered,intelligent posts people might start taking you seriously, until then think before you start complaining that you aren't being treated fairly.
Rusty
The CAA is made up of ... probably bakers too,
who looks after the loops and the stall turns?
