Pilot Controlled Lighting - UK

[Mickey Kaye]

And are licensed ones when they unlicensed? eg the fire crew have gone home

[dont overfil]

And are licensed ones when they unlicensed? eg the fire crew have gone home

Licenced airfields are still licenced after hours. The licence cannot be switched on and off. We've been through this with the CAA for other reasons. The ATZ may not be H24.

What all this comes down to is we do not live in a "can do" culture. (yet)

D.O.

[riverrock83]

Rather than the issue being Nimbys, is it not more a safety issue - as in - someone turning the lights off when someone else is on approach?

Licensed aerodromes are likely to have a much greater volume of traffic than unlicensed.
Two planes are approaching an airfield at night, the first guy turns it on (say by SMS), then the second guys turns it on as well. The first guy doesn't know about the second guy, so once he vacates, he then turns the lights off again - leaving the second guy in the dark...
Landing at night is likely controlled by other means (simply no permission granted to land between certain times).

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by riverrock83

Rather than the issue being Nimbys, is it not more a safety issue - as in - someone turning the lights off when someone else is on approach?

Licensed aerodromes are likely to have a much greater volume of traffic than unlicensed.
Two planes are approaching an airfield at night, the first guy turns it on (say by SMS), then the second guys turns it on as well. The first guy doesn't know about the second guy, so once he vacates, he then turns the lights off again - leaving the second guy in the dark...
Landing at night is likely controlled by other means (simply no permission granted to land between certain times).

I don't think there is a particular correlation of traffic at licensed vs unlicensed fields.

Also, PCL doesn't work like that. You can turn it on and you can adjust its level, but you can't turn it off with the PCL system - it goes off on a timer.

PCL is common in other countries (particularly the USA) and IFAIK there are no safety issues - beyond the general reduced safety of night time operations.

However, even if you are in a busy circuit you should key up the system. I was once doing a night landing away and was something like number 5 in the circuit with the field and ALS lit up like a Christmas tree- so didn't bother to key the PCL again. On final the Christmas tree turned into a black hole Oops. Never have I gotten out 7 clicks on the mic faster!


I have no idea why this rule exists, I am pretty sure the CAA has lost the logic in the mists of time. But I also know my local field has PCL for the police and tried to get it available for all but failed.

[peterh337]

Am I right that since licensing is no longer required for flight training, any field wanting PCL (and be 100% legit as per the regs) can go unlicensed - unless they want to retain AOC business.

CAP168 (Licensing of Aerodromes) states "The control of an AGL system from beyond the boundary of a licensed aerodrome will only be approved by the CAA for the sole use of the emergency services".

I am really suprised there is still a regulation on PCL, as posted above. What is the point?

The issue with the light turning off too early is potentially there no matter what technology is used.

[phiggsbroadband]

It would be possible for lights to be Re-Switched-On with just the press of the PTT, after the first 'coded' switch-on. I think anyone with a Phd in electronics could configure a PIC Chip to do the neccesary functions.

One objection to night flying is that it could lead to no revenue for the airfield, if the office is closed, and also neighbours objecting to multiple free circuit sessions in the dead of the night.

Pete

[peterh337]

Sure, but that is a policy decision for the airfield owner.

If he thinks that preventing arrivals from avoiding the payment of landing fees outweighs the much increased utility of having night capability then he needs to think hard about what kind of customers he's got based there Sure some will take the micky but most people aren't crooks.

[fattony]

The CAA knows the neighbours will tolerate the emergency services flying at night, because they know it's for a noble reason - but GA pleasure flights? I think not..

What about all the commercial pleasure flights from LHR/LGW etc? Most commercial flights are packed with people going on holiday, i.e. traveling for pleasure.

You're probably right though. That likely is the reason. It frustrates me.

The issue with the light turning off too early is potentially there no matter what technology is used.

That could also be a problem with tower-controlled lighting. At a licenced field with no radar the tower could switch the lights off at 6pm when they go home while there is traffic joining the circuit with comms fail. Tenuous I know but could happen.

One objection to night flying is that it could lead to no revenue for the airfield, if the office is closed

That may be some people's objection but plenty of fields operate without someone there to take landing fees. Most people will leave the money in an envelope.

How about a petition? Anyone think we can generate enough pressure to get the CAA to review their position?

[soaringhigh650]

The reasons for refusing PCL are the most stupid I have ever come across.

Where is the "can do" attitude among the bureaucratic regulators?

Tell them that if they are not convinced about safety to go and talk to the FAA and fetch the stats.

[Another_CFI]

As an airport manager (now retired) I tried in the past to get permission for PCL supported by risk assessments,etc and basically the CAA response was "Rules is Rules".

[peterh337]

Is there any history of enforcement on this?

It's not much different from using 123.45 for air to air comms, which is widespread, and in many cases the pilots could be traced. Yet I have never heard of anybody prosecuting this.

[dublinpilot]

CAP168 (Licensing of Aerodromes) states "The control of an AGL system from beyond the boundary of a licensed aerodrome will only be approved by the CAA for the sole use of the emergency services".

I think you are all looking too hard for a reason for this to be illegal. I see nothing in the rule quoted above which would prohibit the use of PCL. The only thing that it requires is that for a licenced aerodrome, that the control take place inside the boundary of the aerodrome.

Airports take up a reasonable amount of space. Surely with a GPS the pilot can position into the known overhead, and thereby be sure that they are within the boundary of the aerodrome when activating the lighting.

Once activated they can then go and position onto a downwind and complete the remainder of the circuit.

What they can't do is turn on the lighting from 5 miles away to help them find the airfield.

Yes it's a stupid rule, but I can't see how it would stop the legal use of PCL, so long as the pilot positions themselves into the overhead first

[peterh337]

That is very clever, Dublinpilot

Fly to the overhead first....

[Shunter]

I think it's one of those rules which are simply so petty they are best dealt with using the "easier to ask forgiveness rather than permission" methodology. The half-century-old and utterly irrelevant legal bolleaux quoted on this thread (over and over) has almost no basis in fact, logic or plain old common sense.

If I had my own strip I'd put them in without even giving it a second thought.

[riverrock83]

what is "aerodrome boundary"

I was trying to lookup the definition of "aerodrome boundary"

in CAP 168 Ch1 Page 3 5.3 it says:

... the aerodrome licence should show the boundary of
the area of the aerodrome set aside for the movement of aircraft requiring the use of
a licensed aerodrome, so should include runways, taxiways, aprons and, in most
cases, the area adjacent to the terminal building. This is the area that will be audited
by Aerodrome Standards Inspectors, and is also the boundary of the area referred to
in Condition 3 of the aerodrome licence.

This is the only definition I have found and matches the example maps later in the document.
That would mean that in most aerodromes the control tower would be outside the legal definition of aerodrome boundary. Nowhere in the document does it say that the control tower must be inside the boundary.

I know this doesn't make sense (ATC doesn't run down to a box beside the runway at Heathrow and throw a switch) but what am I missing?

[mm_flynn]

Originally Posted by Shunter

If I had my own strip I'd put them in without even giving it a second thought.

Once again, not the problem. There are a reasonable number of 'strip'/ unlicensed fields that have PCL are some other non-approved approach to lighting. It is specifically getting this at licensed fields that is the issue. In that case one has a business that requires a license and that license can be revoked on the basis of providing PCL. This is not a sensible risk to take - on the basis that the management pays many tens of thousands of pounds pa to comply with the license conditions it must be reasonably important to the management - so risking loosing it is just not a clever plan.

I strongly agree the rule is bonkers, but have no clue how to get the CAA to review and remove this rule and as another poster has mentioned, there are licensed fields with proactive management (who one assumes are more familiar with lobbying the CAA than most of us) who have tried and failed on this particular PITA rule.

[Mickey Kaye]

"The issue with the light turning off too early is potentially there no matter what technology is used."

Actually that happens now. One airfield that does have lights has them on a timer and they go off at exactly 2000 hours regardless. Apparently people have been on approach when it has happened.

[smithgd]

"The issue with the light turning off too early is potentially there no matter what technology is used."

Actually that happens now. One airfield that does have lights has them on a timer and they go off at exactly 2000 hours regardless. Apparently people have been on approach when it has happened.

That's easy to fix...instead of switching OFF at 8pm they change it so it can't be turned ON after 8pm.

[peterh337]

There are airports which, if you are on final when they close, will tell you that you cannot land, and you have to divert.

I think it's pretty common, and is connected with "somebody" having to pay ATC and fire crew a massive amount for overtime if one goes past even 1 minute.

Turning off the lights is pretty mean but is really the same as not issuing a "cleared to land". If you wanted to land in that situation (no clearance) you would have only some seconds in which to notice "low oil pressure" and declare the mayday

I come back to what I said earlier i.e. if unlicensed then the solution is easy. If licensed then you rely on the CAA to sign you off, which they don't have to do. But who needs to be licensed? It is surely only for AOC ops these days?

[Mickey Kaye]

Sadly I think its a case of all ready too late.

Some 20 years ago I did my PPL training from what is now effectively a GA no go international regional airport. Each year a significant number off students got night ratings in fact the place was as busy at night as it was during the day. There was also a couple of other airfields that had lights nearby and they were pretty busy also.

These days the number of people who get night ratings has dropped through the floor. Also when I am airborne at night its no where near as busy as it used to be.

I think the damage from not allowing PCL has already been done. I also think to reverse this will take a lot of cash - lets face it installing lights is not cheap.

The other problem is where are we going to train the next generation of night pilots. If the CAA wont allow training using PCL at licensed airfields are they going to allow it at unlicensed ones?