Pilot Controlled Lighting - UK
Joined: May 2007
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From: Europe
OK, understood, but the regulations are not about all radio stations, they are about transmitting radio stations.
The aircraft's radio transmission, on a particular frequency, is received by a receiver on the ground which turns on the lights. That's my understanding, and if I'm wrong I'm sorry.
The aircraft radio is not being used outside the terms of its licence, any more it would be if the signal were received by a person who replies "OK, Guv" and reaches out to switch on the lights.
I'm not arguing that PCL can/should be used in UK because it is elsewhere; I'm arguing that PCL is permitted now in the UK on an unlicensed airfield at least.
As the level of simple legal knowledge and aeronautical competence in the CAA heads South, so does their propensity for talking rubbish increase.
The aircraft's radio transmission, on a particular frequency, is received by a receiver on the ground which turns on the lights. That's my understanding, and if I'm wrong I'm sorry.
The aircraft radio is not being used outside the terms of its licence, any more it would be if the signal were received by a person who replies "OK, Guv" and reaches out to switch on the lights.
I'm not arguing that PCL can/should be used in UK because it is elsewhere; I'm arguing that PCL is permitted now in the UK on an unlicensed airfield at least.
As the level of simple legal knowledge and aeronautical competence in the CAA heads South, so does their propensity for talking rubbish increase.
Last edited by Capot; 16th January 2011 at 13:42. Reason: clarity
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The ground radio station also needs a license - even at an unlicensed aerodrome.
It's an interesting argument that only a receiver is required because the legislation is focused on transmitters. Assuming that no transmitter is used on the ground on the frequency in question, perhaps it does come down to the terms of the aircraft radio station licence. But it begs the question, what frequency would be used?
It's an interesting argument that only a receiver is required because the legislation is focused on transmitters. Assuming that no transmitter is used on the ground on the frequency in question, perhaps it does come down to the terms of the aircraft radio station licence. But it begs the question, what frequency would be used?
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: Surrey
My local field (which does have PCL for Emergency Services) has been in dialogue with the CAA about allowing it to be used out of licensed hours for general traffic. I am told the answer they received from the CAA was
'You are a licensed field, just because you are not available for users requiring a licensed field out of hours does not mean your license has lapsed. The published rules specifically forbid the lights of a licensed field from being turned on by someone outside the airport boundary. PCL does just such a thing - therefore you can not have PCL for general use.'
There were not told, OFCOM prevents the use.... or OFCOM will only issue exemptions to emergency services...., or PCL is not legal in the UK. It was a very specific answer.
Last edited by mm_flynn; 16th January 2011 at 18:49.
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Forget the matter of what emergency services might be allowed to do - you are a mere mortal just like the rest of us.
There are rules that we have to follow, lest we live in anarchy. Take a look at the rules that apply here - you can start with those in the CAA's CAP168, CAP670 and no doubt others. Look at the terms of all of the licences and approvals that are issued to go with the radio stations involved. Then take a look at the WT Act and the associated ITU Regulations.
The rules have been put there by people who see the big picture rather than one small and insignificant corner of one's own world. Sometimes those rules become outdated. If you think the rules are wrong then put your argument to rulemakers - but make it an argument instead of simply saying you don't like the rules or you don't see why the rules are the way they are.
There are rules that we have to follow, lest we live in anarchy. Take a look at the rules that apply here - you can start with those in the CAA's CAP168, CAP670 and no doubt others. Look at the terms of all of the licences and approvals that are issued to go with the radio stations involved. Then take a look at the WT Act and the associated ITU Regulations.
The rules have been put there by people who see the big picture rather than one small and insignificant corner of one's own world. Sometimes those rules become outdated. If you think the rules are wrong then put your argument to rulemakers - but make it an argument instead of simply saying you don't like the rules or you don't see why the rules are the way they are.
Joined: Jun 2003
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From: EuroGA.org
The issue, evidently, is that the CAA don't comment publicly.
One wonders why.
Is it to prevent being held up to ridicule?
If the CAA commented publicly, half the forum threads would be superfluous.
One wonders why.
Is it to prevent being held up to ridicule?
If the CAA commented publicly, half the forum threads would be superfluous.
Joined: Aug 2003
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From: Surrey
I have also tried to find the relevant radio regulations, and the summary OFCOM documents indicate they have pretty much delegated everything to do with these frequencies to the CAA and international agreements.
The broad existence of PCL outside the UK seems to support my view that their is no intrinsic international restriction against using these frequencies for this purpose. Hence the people with a proper big picture -- rather than a little island picture seem to support this application.
The only reference provided to support your position that OFCOM (and or WT Act, ITU, etc. ) have a position is the argument that the frequency is only approved for specific data and voice - and that keying the mic while not talking is signalling (a prohibited activity). It seems a very weak argument to pin your position that it is OFCOM/WT Act/ITU that is preventing this usage rather than simply the CAA choosing to not allow PCL at licensed airports (which as someone already said, they are perfectly entitled to do as it is their train set).
...The rules have been put there by people who see the big picture rather than one small and insignificant corner of one's own world. Sometimes those rules become outdated. If you think the rules are wrong then put your argument to rulemakers - but make it an argument instead of simply saying you don't like the rules or you don't see why the rules are the way they are.
If you have a more specific reference of why the radio regulators (either locally or internationally) have a view on this use I would love to see it.
As it stands, I remain convinced the originator of the rule is the CAA and the context is provided by Chapter 6 of CAP 168 (a concern about the monitoring and integrity of lighting used at licensed aerodromes and nothing at all to do with your 'an aviation station licence prohibits this use' position).
Joined: May 2007
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From: Europe
The CAA said (above)
The actual rule (CAP 168 Chap 6) is;
The ANO is silent on the matter. The key word is licensed.
So the argument hinges on the CAA's assertion (above) that a licensed airfield remains licensed outside its opening hours. As sometimes happens, an outwardly quite true statement conceals the real truth which is that although the licence is not withdrawn during closed hours, its conditions only apply within opening hours.
If the CAA were right, there would be the absurd situation that an unmanned unlicensed airfield, of which they are many, could safely provide PCL for night use, while its neighbour, licensed during daylight opening hours but not when closed and unmanned at night, may not do so.
The published rules specifically forbid the lights of a licensed field from being turned on by someone outside the airport boundary. PCL does just such a thing - therefore you can not have PCL for general use.'
11.1.3 The control of an AGL system from beyond the boundary of a licensed aerodrome will only be approved by the CAA for the sole use of the emergency services. Where this type of control is desired, an operational requirement proposed by the aerodrome authority and supported by the emergency services involved should be submitted in the first instance to the CAA.
So the argument hinges on the CAA's assertion (above) that a licensed airfield remains licensed outside its opening hours. As sometimes happens, an outwardly quite true statement conceals the real truth which is that although the licence is not withdrawn during closed hours, its conditions only apply within opening hours.
If the CAA were right, there would be the absurd situation that an unmanned unlicensed airfield, of which they are many, could safely provide PCL for night use, while its neighbour, licensed during daylight opening hours but not when closed and unmanned at night, may not do so.
Joined: Jan 2007
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From: Fairoaks and Shobdon
IMHO if you just do it, nobody is going to stop you.
As for SMS, the PCL would still be controlled from outside the airfield boundary.
Personally I think it's all about keeping the neighbours happy, and not necessarily all about safety; PCL works perfectly well elsewhere in the world, but the last thing the CAA want is a backlash from the nimbys - think of all that paperwork they'd have to deal with! The CAA knows the neighbours will tolerate the emergency services flying at night, because they know it's for a noble reason - but GA pleasure flights? I think not..
Just to clarify, I've used PCL in the US, and think it's great. I'd love to see it used here in the UK if only, initially, until 10pm. That way I'd get to keep up my night hours!
Joined: Sep 2009
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
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From: N.YORKSHIRE
We have PCL. On a timer. Unlicensed airfield.
A few clicks to turn it on for departure. The same for arrival. To argue that switching it on from the cockpit while static is ok but switching it on from the overhead isn't, is pedantry in the extreme.
A few clicks to turn it on for departure. The same for arrival. To argue that switching it on from the cockpit while static is ok but switching it on from the overhead isn't, is pedantry in the extreme.
Joined: Dec 2011
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the CAA would jump on it pronto.
The airport I am based at (Shoreham) has PCL. For use by the based police helicopter
You won't need a PhD and £1M of kit to work out the frequency it is on. I also don't exactly recall an ANO clause which talks about PCL and exempts the police...
Last edited by peterh337; 1st October 2012 at 08:55.
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 802
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From: England
"I can't realistically see that any licensed airfield would take that chance"
But if its now allowed then maybe a few of them would. By all accounts it doesn't cost a lot to install and may generate some extra revenue.
Where I am based it is effectively impossible to fly at night. Two of the 3 regional international airports have 100 quid handling fees. The one that doesn't closes at 2200.
There are one other local GA airport that has lights but its only open till 2000.
Its nigh on impossible to do night ratings in this part of the world (and totally impossible over summer) I've even met people who have gone to the states to add a night rating to their licence so they can start their CPL training. Hardly ideal for our local flight training establishments.
But if its now allowed then maybe a few of them would. By all accounts it doesn't cost a lot to install and may generate some extra revenue.
Where I am based it is effectively impossible to fly at night. Two of the 3 regional international airports have 100 quid handling fees. The one that doesn't closes at 2200.
There are one other local GA airport that has lights but its only open till 2000.
Its nigh on impossible to do night ratings in this part of the world (and totally impossible over summer) I've even met people who have gone to the states to add a night rating to their licence so they can start their CPL training. Hardly ideal for our local flight training establishments.
Last edited by Mickey Kaye; 1st October 2012 at 10:47.
Joined: Dec 2011
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The solutions are fairly trivial.
At work (industrial electronics), we don't do any aviation stuff but we make a little box (email me if interested) which functionally is very close to doing exactly this i.e. turn on a relay from an SMS message, for X seconds. It costs about £300, including the GSM modem.
That's what I would do if I had a strip and wanted PCL. IME, SMS is more or less guaranteed to work below say 2000ft.
The FUD surrounding PCL goes back many years, to some old boy in the CAA who has long retired. I would bet you anything the CAA would never enforce it today.
At work (industrial electronics), we don't do any aviation stuff but we make a little box (email me if interested) which functionally is very close to doing exactly this i.e. turn on a relay from an SMS message, for X seconds. It costs about £300, including the GSM modem.
That's what I would do if I had a strip and wanted PCL. IME, SMS is more or less guaranteed to work below say 2000ft.
The FUD surrounding PCL goes back many years, to some old boy in the CAA who has long retired. I would bet you anything the CAA would never enforce it today.
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 10,804
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I doudt its even the pilot side of things which is being the hand brake.
I suspect its ex mil ATCO's which are dead against it along with the Dft and others not wanting aircraft landing at airports at night with no records of it.
I suspect its ex mil ATCO's which are dead against it along with the Dft and others not wanting aircraft landing at airports at night with no records of it.
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 177
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From: Somewhere in Southern England
CAP168 (Licensing of Aerodromes) states "The control of an AGL system from beyond the boundary of a licensed aerodrome will only be approved by the CAA for the sole use of the emergency services".