NPPL vs PPL advice please
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NPPL vs PPL advice please
I've recently completed my solo and now doing more time in the circuit. I've completed about 20 hours and also passed most of the ground school exams over the last 6 months. My instructor tells me I'm coming up to the decision point where I can either go for NPPL or jump straight to PPL. What factors should I take into account?
Long term, I do plan to take the PPL and would like IMC and night too - the weather in UK would make IMC helpful and increase days I could fly. My main goal is to be able to fly to other airports, mainly in UK, possible occasional daytrips to France (I've heard NPPL can do this with prior permission), some with passengers under VFR. I'd be interested in buying a share in a 4 seater once passed my test (assuming this can be done without PPL and/or 100 hours logged). One option might be to do NPPL this year, PPL next and IMC following - this would spread the load, cost and also allow me to enjoy it more than just doing training all the time. Have others done this in stages vs going straight to PPL?
Long term, I do plan to take the PPL and would like IMC and night too - the weather in UK would make IMC helpful and increase days I could fly. My main goal is to be able to fly to other airports, mainly in UK, possible occasional daytrips to France (I've heard NPPL can do this with prior permission), some with passengers under VFR. I'd be interested in buying a share in a 4 seater once passed my test (assuming this can be done without PPL and/or 100 hours logged). One option might be to do NPPL this year, PPL next and IMC following - this would spread the load, cost and also allow me to enjoy it more than just doing training all the time. Have others done this in stages vs going straight to PPL?
A NPPL would get you your licence quicker and cheaper than a PPL, but only because you potentially fly less hours to licence issue. To get say 100 hours in would of course cost pretty much the same by either route.
A NPPL then a PPL would certainly cost you more in the long run.
If, as you suggest, you may want night/IMC ratings in the future you would be best served by going straight for a PPL from the start in my view.
Good luck with the training whatever route you chose
A NPPL then a PPL would certainly cost you more in the long run.
If, as you suggest, you may want night/IMC ratings in the future you would be best served by going straight for a PPL from the start in my view.
Good luck with the training whatever route you chose
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PPL............ no question. If you do the minimum NPPL syllabus it means doing a 100 nm xc, but the ppl is 150nm,so why do the 100?.........I did and it was a mistake, as I now fly almost always with a friend and can't be ar$ed to fly a 150nm solo xc to qualify the PPL. The minimum 32 hours soon expands to 35 then 40 then 50 therefore the minimum hours for a PPL are soon achieved.
In my defence I hold a Glider Pilots License which meant that I could do the NPPL in a vastly reduced minimum compared to the PPL.
If there is no medical reason to hold you back and money isn't too limited........go PPL
In my defence I hold a Glider Pilots License which meant that I could do the NPPL in a vastly reduced minimum compared to the PPL.
If there is no medical reason to hold you back and money isn't too limited........go PPL
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SDIW,
I set off on the NPPL path with a view to getting qualified as quickly as possible & then adding the next steps as I went along. By the time I soloed at ~20 hours, I had enough experience to decide that my flying would be satisfied with daytime VFR, and thus stuck at NPPL.
Given the point that you are at with your flying I'd suggest that you probably have enough experience to know what you want to do next, in fact you clearly state that in your posting. As such I agree with the others, you aspire to do a lot more with your flying and so the PPL looks a much better route for what you want to do.
Good luck with it
I set off on the NPPL path with a view to getting qualified as quickly as possible & then adding the next steps as I went along. By the time I soloed at ~20 hours, I had enough experience to decide that my flying would be satisfied with daytime VFR, and thus stuck at NPPL.
Given the point that you are at with your flying I'd suggest that you probably have enough experience to know what you want to do next, in fact you clearly state that in your posting. As such I agree with the others, you aspire to do a lot more with your flying and so the PPL looks a much better route for what you want to do.
Good luck with it
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Either way - in two years time it will all change with EASA licences
I was taking too long a few years ago, so I opted for the full JAR, but after a couple of months I lost my medical - still not got it back, so it made little difference...
Look at the EASA proposals, and decide if you need the full JAR, or just a LAPL (sic) in which case go for the NPPL.
It is easy to say you want the extra, but unless you have a good budget, the cheaper route makes a lot of sense
Best of luck!
I was taking too long a few years ago, so I opted for the full JAR, but after a couple of months I lost my medical - still not got it back, so it made little difference...
Look at the EASA proposals, and decide if you need the full JAR, or just a LAPL (sic) in which case go for the NPPL.
It is easy to say you want the extra, but unless you have a good budget, the cheaper route makes a lot of sense
Best of luck!
Long term, I do plan to take the PPL
A NPPL would get you your licence quicker and cheaper than a PPL,
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Belated thanks and further information
A somewhat belated thanks to those who answered my query.
I wanted to talk this through with my instructor, who provided his insight into the two options. He took the same line as Whopity - saying that regardless of whether it's NPPL or PPL, you still have to learn to fly to a safe standard. In his experience, this takes pretty much the same number of hours - only a very few exceptional pupils of his (1-2%) would have achieved this in the theoretical hours stated in the NPPL syllabus.
This suggests that for mere mortals like me the additional cost of PPL involves perhaps 2-3 additional hours of instruction on Ex 19 and radio nav. The General Skills Test for PPL is a slightly different format, but similar content and flying standard.
He also commented that learning in a Flexwing and then transferring to SEP may also end up taking many hours and overall cost just as much or more. (Bit late for me to take that option anyway, but nice to have that reconfirmed).
This is quite different from the impression I had formed earlier, that an NPPL might be a lower cost stepping stone towards PPL. He advised that unless there were medical reasons, going for PPL would be a better option. As mentioned by others in this thread, it also opens the door to further opportunities in the future.
I wanted to talk this through with my instructor, who provided his insight into the two options. He took the same line as Whopity - saying that regardless of whether it's NPPL or PPL, you still have to learn to fly to a safe standard. In his experience, this takes pretty much the same number of hours - only a very few exceptional pupils of his (1-2%) would have achieved this in the theoretical hours stated in the NPPL syllabus.
This suggests that for mere mortals like me the additional cost of PPL involves perhaps 2-3 additional hours of instruction on Ex 19 and radio nav. The General Skills Test for PPL is a slightly different format, but similar content and flying standard.
He also commented that learning in a Flexwing and then transferring to SEP may also end up taking many hours and overall cost just as much or more. (Bit late for me to take that option anyway, but nice to have that reconfirmed).
This is quite different from the impression I had formed earlier, that an NPPL might be a lower cost stepping stone towards PPL. He advised that unless there were medical reasons, going for PPL would be a better option. As mentioned by others in this thread, it also opens the door to further opportunities in the future.
For you I'm sure that PPL is the way to go but I don't agree that people should only consider the NPPL for medical reasons.
If all you want to do is bimble around day VFR with up to 3 mates then the NPPL is simpler merely because you don't have to faff around with the annual medical and the amount you'd spend on that pays for your time with an instructor.
So, while I fully accept that the costs difference to get the licence is minimal, the cost to keep your licence valid (especially given microlight and SLMG allowances) can be considerably lower or, to look at it the other way round, the costs can stay the same for considerably more hours.
As I say if you're a day VFR bimbler who might want to go abroad once or twice (and I think that's a fair number of private flyers) then I really don't see why you'd want the added expense and embuggerance of the PPL.
If all you want to do is bimble around day VFR with up to 3 mates then the NPPL is simpler merely because you don't have to faff around with the annual medical and the amount you'd spend on that pays for your time with an instructor.
So, while I fully accept that the costs difference to get the licence is minimal, the cost to keep your licence valid (especially given microlight and SLMG allowances) can be considerably lower or, to look at it the other way round, the costs can stay the same for considerably more hours.
As I say if you're a day VFR bimbler who might want to go abroad once or twice (and I think that's a fair number of private flyers) then I really don't see why you'd want the added expense and embuggerance of the PPL.
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If all you want to do is bimble around day VFR with up to 3 mates then the NPPL is simpler merely because you don't have to faff around with the annual medical
With the advantage that you can upgrade yourself to full PPL privileges any time you like just by going and getting a medical.
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because you don't have to faff around with the annual medical
< 40, validity is 5 years. 40-50, it's two years, and 50+ annually.
So you don't need a medical every year unless for some reason you have a Class 1, or you're over 50.
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on the subject of medicals...
I am over 50, and learning to fly for fun rather than as a stepping stone to a career in aviation.
I have done my first solo and the solo circuit consolidation work, and am now doing navigation exercises.
I turned up for my lesson yesterday, with the expectation that my instructor would send me out solo for the first time into the big wide world outside the circuit - just a short trip around the periphery of a nearby big town, so little chance of getting lost! We had spoken about it on the previous lesson.
However on checking my paperwork he said that he had not realised that I had an NPPL medical certificate - the one you get from your GP.
He went on to say that with only that certificate and the implication that I was doing an NPPL rather than a PPL, he was not allowed to send me solo outside the circuit unless I had a nav checkout ( I think he said) with a qualified examiner first.
The upshot is that if I want to do this first solo navex, I have either got to get myself a class 2 medical certificate (£100 - £150), or fork out for an extra flight beforehand ( er, £100 - £150) so the cost is about the same.
I have a couple of questions. First is my instructor right? Second, I used to have a class 2 medical but it lapsed a couple of years ago. Will a new one count as a renewal, or will I start again from scratch? I don't anticipate any problems in passing the medical, so that is not an issue.
In my own particular case, my inclination is to go for the PPL, and then if after getting my licence I find I am not making full use of its privileges and don't want to pay for class 2 renewal every year, I could always "downgrade" myself and just fly within NPPL limits as Gertrude said yesterday, and go back to getting sign-offs from my GP at £25 every 5 years.
TOW.
I have done my first solo and the solo circuit consolidation work, and am now doing navigation exercises.
I turned up for my lesson yesterday, with the expectation that my instructor would send me out solo for the first time into the big wide world outside the circuit - just a short trip around the periphery of a nearby big town, so little chance of getting lost! We had spoken about it on the previous lesson.
However on checking my paperwork he said that he had not realised that I had an NPPL medical certificate - the one you get from your GP.
He went on to say that with only that certificate and the implication that I was doing an NPPL rather than a PPL, he was not allowed to send me solo outside the circuit unless I had a nav checkout ( I think he said) with a qualified examiner first.
The upshot is that if I want to do this first solo navex, I have either got to get myself a class 2 medical certificate (£100 - £150), or fork out for an extra flight beforehand ( er, £100 - £150) so the cost is about the same.
I have a couple of questions. First is my instructor right? Second, I used to have a class 2 medical but it lapsed a couple of years ago. Will a new one count as a renewal, or will I start again from scratch? I don't anticipate any problems in passing the medical, so that is not an issue.
In my own particular case, my inclination is to go for the PPL, and then if after getting my licence I find I am not making full use of its privileges and don't want to pay for class 2 renewal every year, I could always "downgrade" myself and just fly within NPPL limits as Gertrude said yesterday, and go back to getting sign-offs from my GP at £25 every 5 years.
TOW.
He went on to say that with only that certificate and the implication that I was doing an NPPL rather than a PPL, he was not allowed to send me solo outside the circuit unless I had a nav checkout ( I think he said) with a qualified examiner first.
Were you planning to fly a formal pilot navigation exercise, or just Ex14B solo? I.e., to leave the circuit, fly some general handling in the local area, then rejoin the circuit?
The only NPPL requirement for navigation assessment by an Authorised Examiner is the Navigation Skill Test which must be flown before the qualifying cross-country - and you certainly weren't about to fly that!
After completing Ex14B, you should be learning steep turns and PFLs before starting on pilot navigation, incidentally.
Whether you continue with your NPPL training or decide upon JAR-FCL PPL(A) training is up to you - we don't know what EASA plans for the NPPL yet.
Additionally, there may well be changes to the ORS4 No.756 exemption arrangements this August when it is due for re-issue. It was only ever intended for pilots with valid licences and ratings who either could no longer hold, or who chose not to continue to hold, JAA Class 2 medical certificates - and permits them to continue to fly SEP aircraft but restricted to SSEA privileges in circumstances described in the ORS4 No.756 exemption document.
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Sending solo with NPPL medical ticket
BEagle wrote:
Yes, that was the plan. I am going to query this with the CFI tomorrow. I think my instructor has misunderstood something - I don't see why I require a check ride with an examiner prior to some 14B just because I only have an NPPL medical ticket rather than a class 2.
Correct
I have had training in both the above and spiral dive recovery too - we did some more yesterday. In fact very early on in my training, about fourth or fifth lesson, an instructor who was standing in for my then regular one had me doing PFL's before I had ever done a real "ordinary" landing by myself. I thought it was a bit odd at the time, but I coped all right, and now PFL's don't particularly worry me, although like everyone else I hope I never have to do it for real!
...Ex 14B solo...to leave the circuit, fly some general handling in the local area, then rejoin the circuit?
...flown before the qualifying cross-country - and you certainly weren't about to fly that!
After completing Ex14B, you should be learning steep turns and PFLs before starting on pilot navigation, incidentally.
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You mention in your first post that you understand you can fly to France on an NPPL.
This is not the case, although the LAA has been in discussions with the DGAC with a view to getting the NPPL accepted in France with an ICAO compliant medical, which does not necessarily mean a JAA-FCL Class 2 medical.
This is not the case, although the LAA has been in discussions with the DGAC with a view to getting the NPPL accepted in France with an ICAO compliant medical, which does not necessarily mean a JAA-FCL Class 2 medical.
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If all you want to do is bimble around day VFR with up to 3 mates
The candidate cannot be sure up front that is all he will want to be doing.
The "3 mates" will get bored after the first couple of flights, especially if they are asked to cough up 75% of the cost of the flight. Then you will fly with 3 other mates. Soon, you run out of mates.
The vast majority of new license holders pack it all in within a year or so. It's a really sad state of affairs. There are numerous reasons for this - all discussed here many times in the past - but limiting one's license privileges in such a big way, for the very small saving on the initial effort, is IMHO a bad idea.
It is possible to fly to France on an NPPL, all you need to do is ask the French for permission.
And flying abroad is one of the huge attractions of flying. If I look at the arrivals and departures at my local airfield (a busy GA one) at any given instant, about 90-95% of them could have been driven in a car in less time. I know a lot of people enjoy just going up for a flight (I certainly do) but if all one ever does is fly at that level, the whole activity is - for many - a constant struggle against boredom.
No wonder so many give up so soon.
Whereas going abroad delivers a utility value which no other means of travel can get anywhere near. France for lunch. How else could you do that? If you stay overnight, the options widen dramatically.
The NPPL was conceived by the flight training industry, to deliver a "product" which they could stick on their price list, with a lower £ figure next to it than the normal PPL. Nobody ever thought about its value, and unsuprisingly the great majority of takers were existing pilots who could no longer get the CAA Class 2 medical.
What the industry should have done instead was to ask itself "what can we do to make fewer people chuck it in the moment they have done the skills test". But the industry has no mandate to do that. They have had your £8000 or so.
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Our club near London uses a database to do the housekeeping, and I've just this morning been looking at a few statistics. We moved to the computer system in Dec 2008 and since then amongst the destinations have been...
Bembridge 166 times, Popham 43, Goodwood 30, Blackbush 22, Le Touquet 6, Jersey 2, Rufford, Stoke Golding and Bournemouth 1 each.
There are a good few more places that people have been, of course, but very few outside the UK, even though France is just 1hr 20 away. People used to go further, but that was before EasyJet and Ryanair made the difference in cost of, say, getting to the south of France so great that it isn't worth using a PA28 or whatever. Club members often talk about wanting to tour long distances, but they don't actually do it. Several years ago I was setting off for Ostende and needed to go back through the paper records to find when the aircraft last went abroad. It turned out to be me to Le Touquet a year earlier.
B
Bembridge 166 times, Popham 43, Goodwood 30, Blackbush 22, Le Touquet 6, Jersey 2, Rufford, Stoke Golding and Bournemouth 1 each.
There are a good few more places that people have been, of course, but very few outside the UK, even though France is just 1hr 20 away. People used to go further, but that was before EasyJet and Ryanair made the difference in cost of, say, getting to the south of France so great that it isn't worth using a PA28 or whatever. Club members often talk about wanting to tour long distances, but they don't actually do it. Several years ago I was setting off for Ostende and needed to go back through the paper records to find when the aircraft last went abroad. It turned out to be me to Le Touquet a year earlier.
B
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There are a fair few syndicates whose profile is like that. They often have lots of members; sometimes 20-30. Most of their members are people who just want to go up for a short flight. Most of them are also severely hard-up and that is all they can afford to do.
This is fair enough - different people have their boats floated in different ways - but I would not recommend a new pilot to limit his horizons to something like that.
However I fully accept that if say a Warrior is what you have, then anything beyond N France is hard work. I do a lot of long distance touring but have a plane which can do 1300nm (TB20) and that makes things much easier.
This is fair enough - different people have their boats floated in different ways - but I would not recommend a new pilot to limit his horizons to something like that.
However I fully accept that if say a Warrior is what you have, then anything beyond N France is hard work. I do a lot of long distance touring but have a plane which can do 1300nm (TB20) and that makes things much easier.
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Airpolice wrote
No, I don't think he dreamed it, but may have come to a similar conclusion to GusHoneybun who wrote in pprune on 4 April 2005
To which BEagle responded
I think my instructor believes that a local bimble outside of the circuit counts as "solo navigation" as per GH's point 2 above and I need an NST before I can do it. But if my class2 had still been current then I wouldn't.
My own first solo was done under an NPPL "HGV" ticket, but I don't think this commits me to being an NPPL forever, which is what GH said in his first point.
I guess what I really want to know is if I now do all the exams and airborne tests as if I was going for a PPL, then how critical is the timing of my Class2 medical if I want to continue down the PPL route? Do I have to get it right now, or can it wait until one or more of the formal air work tests/assessments have been done?
As for the point about leaving the local area, this has to be a club rule or just something that came to instructor in a dream. Time to look at another school it seems.
1) First solo. If your first solo is on a HGV medical (i.e. NPPL medical) then you are then limited to completing the training as an NPPL. However, if you hold a class two medical then the point at which your decision is made is....
2) First solo Nav. There is a navigation skills test that you need to pass before you can go on solo nav's as a NPPL. If you sit this test before you first solo nav, then you can only complete your training under the NPPL system.
If you have held a class 2 medical since you first went solo, and you haven't sat a Nav skills test, then as far as I can see you can complete your training under the JAR PPL system, with all of your training counting towards the 45 hours required.
2) First solo Nav. There is a navigation skills test that you need to pass before you can go on solo nav's as a NPPL. If you sit this test before you first solo nav, then you can only complete your training under the NPPL system.
If you have held a class 2 medical since you first went solo, and you haven't sat a Nav skills test, then as far as I can see you can complete your training under the JAR PPL system, with all of your training counting towards the 45 hours required.
No, the NST is taken before the NPPL Q X-C, not before 'any' NPPL solo navigation.
My own first solo was done under an NPPL "HGV" ticket, but I don't think this commits me to being an NPPL forever, which is what GH said in his first point.
I guess what I really want to know is if I now do all the exams and airborne tests as if I was going for a PPL, then how critical is the timing of my Class2 medical if I want to continue down the PPL route? Do I have to get it right now, or can it wait until one or more of the formal air work tests/assessments have been done?
IO
Just how many people, as a percentage of active private flyers, use any privileges outside those of the SSEA licence?
As Bern says, not many and if there are a thousand things to think of when going abroad then 1001 is hardly stretching you too far.
It's horses for courses and I fully accept that there are many for whom the PPL is the only reasonable choice but that doesn't mean that there aren't a similar number for whom the NPPL would be just as reasonable.
I fully agree with you, though, that the flight training industry seems to forget about people after the licence issue and then wonder why those people forget about them.
Oh, and tow1709, your instructor is talking bollox.
The vast majority of new license holders pack it all in within a year or so. It's a really sad state of affairs. There are numerous reasons for this - all discussed here many times in the past - but limiting one's license privileges in such a big way, for the very small saving on the initial effort, is IMHO a bad idea.
As Bern says, not many and if there are a thousand things to think of when going abroad then 1001 is hardly stretching you too far.
It's horses for courses and I fully accept that there are many for whom the PPL is the only reasonable choice but that doesn't mean that there aren't a similar number for whom the NPPL would be just as reasonable.
I fully agree with you, though, that the flight training industry seems to forget about people after the licence issue and then wonder why those people forget about them.
Oh, and tow1709, your instructor is talking bollox.
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if say a Warrior is what you have, then anything beyond N France is hard work. I do a lot of long distance touring but have a plane which can do 1300nm (TB20) and that makes things much easier.
Personally, I just love flying - I don't need to cross 1000 miles of fields and houses to have fun. A trip to the Needles (again) on a bright sunny day sets me up for days.
B