RT arriving at a new aerodrome

[what next]

Hello!

G-ABCD at Some VRP for Overhead Join Runway XX QFE XXXX

And what exactly is so wrong about sticking to standard ICAO phraseology that everybody has to invent his/her own radio procedures?

I quote from ICAO DOC 4444 :

Code:

3.4.14 Entering an aerodrome traffic circuit:  *a) [aircraft type] (position) (level) FOR LANDING;

Everywhere in the world the controller will understand your intentions and supply you the relevant information. At exactly the right time.

Regards, Max

[screetch]

i think the CAA has its slightly own RT.

it says in the CAP413 book:
XXX Approach (orYYY Tower) G-DCDN, Request join

or do you say:
XXX Approach (orYYY Tower) G-DCDN, Request joining instructions?

[fuzzy6988]

And what exactly is so wrong about sticking to standard ICAO phraseology that everybody has to invent his/her own radio procedures?

Many countries have filed differences to better suit their local environment. The US, the UK and Russia have the greatest number of differences from ICAO. I'm all up for international standardisation in my opinion.

[jez d]

Talking to air/ground radio

For the humble air/ground radio service, Gertrude and 1800 have it right.

In my yoof I spent many an hour sat at the controls of a very busy air/ground radio, listening to 5-minute soliloquies from inbound traffic. At weekends I would regularly be working more than 10 aircraft at a time, most of whom wanted to tell me their inside leg measurement and what they had for breakfast.

More often than not, inbound or transiting traffic would switch to our frequency and start transmitting without first having the courtesy to listen out for other traffic.

In my time I had two Mayday calls stamped on by other traffic and many other instances of stuck PTT switches jamming the frequency.

Flying legend and all-round gentleman Neville Duke, and his delightful wife Mary, used to fly in for lunch most Sundays:

"Good morning, fox-whisky inbound"

"Roger, fox-whisky, 26 right, QFE 994"

"Roger, fox-whisky"

"Fox-whisky final, number two"

"Roger, surface wind 210 10 knots"

"Roger"

Compare with the average PPL holder we used to get round our parts:

"*-* radio this is GOLF-ALPHA-BRAVO-CHARLIE-DELTA, six dayseemal one fife nautical miles (GPS owner, obviously), north, north east of airfield at two thousand 700 feet. Request joining instructions for a full stop landing. Request traffic information. Request right hand base join, Request clearance to taxi to fuel pump on landing, etc, ad nauseum..."

I'm sure confidence (and experience, obviously) has a big impact on radio usage, but the adage 'less is more' is most relevant when making initial calls to air/ground radio.

Remember, air/ground radio only provides basic airfield information - runway in use, pressure, wind speed and direction - that's about it. They cannot give you clearance, or traffic information. The Mark I eyeball is what you should rely on.

Regards, jez

[R2112]

well I will give it a go on Saturday and let you guys know what worked best. In the end it is not a big deal and I am sure you can see it in different ways and still get the necessary information. In the end ATC will let you know if you missed anything.

Actally mate, it is quite a big deal! You need to know the type of ATSU you are working as that will tell you what type of service they will give you, and also what information they require to do so. Also it will pay to have an idea of how busy the particular field is likely to be, so as to ascertain how busy the guy on the other end will be. Then you need to consider how to gather the information you need, i.e. take a minute or two to listen out and build a picture, check and copy down the ATIS, once or twice I´ve listened to a lovely consice ATIS broadcast only to stumble over my opening RT when I forgot the ATIS designator AND the pressure!
Then when thats all done, you need to compose your message mentally before launching into a 3 minute speel with a weeks supply of Umms and Errs.
Like has been said before, keep it simple!
I was tought to call up a new station with
(Station Name) G-XXX......
then just wait for them to ask you to pass your message. gives the folks in the App room/Twr/sat infront of the radio&filling in aircraft movements & taking money (Shobdon!) a chance to prepare themselves/get to the radio!
after that follow the relevant RT procedure for the ATSU you are working. I´m assuming you are still training, so you instructor should be able to go into the innermost workings of the system for you.
Best of luck! Let us know how it all goes

[atceng]

Totally irreverent.

Returning from gentle but mildly turbulent navex, just a bit preoccupied avoiding two thousand foot plus masts and a gas vent at least one of which wasn't on my chart but turned out to be right on my track. Being held well below permitted alt by adjacent CTR, and 'mention' of keeping lookout for fastjets. Goodbye madam,nice to have been controlled by you.
That'll teach me not to make courtesy call in case I pop up on their radar.
Change to friendly home 'drome freq and relax a bit.

Pu/t : xxx radio G-ABCD overhead AAA at 2000ft Returning to the field.
(forgot to ask for airport information)

ATSO :G-CD, xxx radio, Roger.

Pu/t: Pause G-CD. Could you confirm the runway in use?

ATSO : G-CD, I'm not allowed to confirm anything.

Pu/t : G-CD, Could you give me a clue,which way is the windsock pointing?

ATSO : G-CD, Down

Pu/t :xxxxx Radio,G-ABCD request airport information for overhead rejoin

ATSO : G-CD, Runway in use xx, wind ...........traffic, etc.

Pu/t : I'm going to cream that b when I get down,did I press the mike button?

atceng.

[Sir Herbert Gussett]

When flying for leisure I've always said callsign and what I'm requesting. Don't know why others don't.... "Manchester Approach, G-ABCD, request basic service"

I believe this helps controllers as well - though I'm not one of them nutters so don't count me on it! If you hear 'request basic service', at that point can you make your first marking on the strip? Rather than nothing...?

[screetch]

lol omg this is funny: windsock is pointing down. At least this put a smile on my face before I drive up to the airfield. Just the right way to start the day.

I will let you know how it went.. and hopefully I will remember how the RT conversation went.

[bookworm]

I might be wrong, but my understanding is that you need to call the airspace owner of the airspace you're travelling through. For a CTA/TMA that would normally be "Approach", for a CTR that would be "Tower".

Convention differs between the UK and Benelux/Germany. In the UK, VFR arrivals are expected to contact the approach frequency first if it exists (even outside controlled airspace). In the NL and Germany, contact is made with the tower, and approach is often not involved at all for VFR flights.

I learned that after a couple of exchanges with approach controllers in the NL and Germany 20 years ago. The exchanges were polite and helpful, but the controller clearly thought "what on earth is this guy thinking?!"

[bookworm]

Flying legend and all-round gentleman Neville Duke, and his delightful wife Mary, used to fly in for lunch most Sundays:

That's all very well, but you probably already knew his aircraft type and his point of departure. And other aircraft could benefit from knowing the direction from which he's joining, even if it's not important to you. I agree with your sentiment, that unnecessary RT is to be avoided, but there is a balance to be struck.

[RatherBeFlying]

Here in Canada

First of all: Get ATIS if provided, then Listen and Wait for end of conversation -- this may require patience as others tell life story

Following the less is more rule:

xyz twr, Cessna FABC with Xray
Cessna abc, xyz twr
Cessna abc somespot 4.5 Northbound
Cessna abc, altimeter 29.99, report leaving the zone.
29.99 abc
.
.
.
xyz twr, Cessna abc departing zone Northbound
Cessna abc, cleared enroute, [have a good day]
[And a good day to you]

I leave initiative for pleasantries or chat to the twr as their workload permits.

[screetch]

right after my flight to gloster the RT was infact different to what we said before.

I called them @Gloster approach, this is G XXX inbound, request joining instructions with information Echo

App: G XXX, report when 3 miles out.

so when i was rought 3 miles out I called them again

G XXX, 3 miles out with airfield in sight.

App: G XXX contact tower on 1xx.xx

So i contacted tower they just advised me on the runway in use and asked me to position for an overhead join.

[fuzzy6988]

Convention differs between the UK and Benelux/Germany. In the UK, VFR arrivals are expected to contact the approach frequency first if it exists (even outside controlled airspace). In the NL and Germany, contact is made with the tower, and approach is often not involved at all for VFR flights.

Interesting. And here is the standard American (and probably ICAO) way for the entire flight between two big airports:

Check ATIS --> Clearance [for IFR] --> Ground --> Tower --> Departure --> Center [for IFR] --> Check ATIS --> Approach --> Tower --> Ground

[172driver]

Check ATIS --> Clearance [for IFR] --> Ground --> Tower --> Departure --> Center [for IFR] --> Check ATIS --> Approach --> Tower --> Ground

Same in Spain and - at least in my experience - in Germany/Austria. Only thing is that at very busy Spanish airports you go to Clearance also for VFR, if so broadcast on the ATIS. Also applies (sometimes) for Center, although usually they don't get involved with VFR.