Irish sea airway crossing / transit?
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Irish sea airway crossing / transit?
ok, thought I had this clear in my own mind but having read a few other threads, now more confused than ever! My understanding was that a class A transit was only possible under SVFR in a CTA and the only way one could pass through a (class A) airway was with an IR.
I have an IMCr (which actually is irrelevant thinking about it). I'm planning to travel South West to Caenarfon, which will take me out over the Irish Sea and there are a number of airways enroute. I know I can't cross them IFR but I thought I may be able to ask for a SVFR crossing / transit however, my question seems to have a different answer depending on the answers to some questions for which there seem no clear answers.
1. Is it correct that I can cross the airway (any airway for that matter) if it is a military controller giving the clearance?
2. Does it depend if the individual airway is treated as a CTA or not and if this is the case, how do i find out if this is the case?
3. It depends if the aircraft is full IFR equipped.
4. If I file a VFR flight plan, I stand a better chance of getting the crossing / transit that I want?
I'm sure its clear from the above that I've read quite a few conflicting threads on this!
I have an IMCr (which actually is irrelevant thinking about it). I'm planning to travel South West to Caenarfon, which will take me out over the Irish Sea and there are a number of airways enroute. I know I can't cross them IFR but I thought I may be able to ask for a SVFR crossing / transit however, my question seems to have a different answer depending on the answers to some questions for which there seem no clear answers.
1. Is it correct that I can cross the airway (any airway for that matter) if it is a military controller giving the clearance?
2. Does it depend if the individual airway is treated as a CTA or not and if this is the case, how do i find out if this is the case?
3. It depends if the aircraft is full IFR equipped.
4. If I file a VFR flight plan, I stand a better chance of getting the crossing / transit that I want?
I'm sure its clear from the above that I've read quite a few conflicting threads on this!
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SVFR is only available in a Control Zone. A Control Zone starts at the surface, an airway doesn't. Ergo SVFR is not available in airways.
1) No. Not without an IR anyway (bar being able to cross at the base level when said base is defined as a flight level, but you don't need to be talking to the mil for that. In fact you don't need to be talking to anybody).
2) No. Though where airways transit Terminal Control Areas they assume the airspace classification of the TMA. So if the TMA is a lower Class than A, any airways in the TMA assume the lower Class inside the TMA. Or, if the airway is Class D but goes through a Class A TMA, the airway changes from D to A in the TMA.
3) No. An aircraft that is not IFR equipped can cross an airway by day in VMC but the pilot still needs an IR and a clearance needs to be obtained from the controlling authority.
4) No. Not of a Class A airway, because you can't cross that VFR (or SVFR) anyway nor of any other en-route airspace that you may be able to transit VFR (e.g. anything Class D) either. A VFR FPL doesn't really do anything with regards airspace transits. You should however file a VFR flight plan on that route for S&R reasons if it takes you over the Irish Sea.
HTH.
1) No. Not without an IR anyway (bar being able to cross at the base level when said base is defined as a flight level, but you don't need to be talking to the mil for that. In fact you don't need to be talking to anybody).
2) No. Though where airways transit Terminal Control Areas they assume the airspace classification of the TMA. So if the TMA is a lower Class than A, any airways in the TMA assume the lower Class inside the TMA. Or, if the airway is Class D but goes through a Class A TMA, the airway changes from D to A in the TMA.
3) No. An aircraft that is not IFR equipped can cross an airway by day in VMC but the pilot still needs an IR and a clearance needs to be obtained from the controlling authority.
4) No. Not of a Class A airway, because you can't cross that VFR (or SVFR) anyway nor of any other en-route airspace that you may be able to transit VFR (e.g. anything Class D) either. A VFR FPL doesn't really do anything with regards airspace transits. You should however file a VFR flight plan on that route for S&R reasons if it takes you over the Irish Sea.
HTH.
Last edited by Roffa; 11th Apr 2010 at 23:11.
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Of course even in the UK not all airways are class A. For example IOM, Ireland.
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...ENR_1_4_en.pdf
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...ENR_1_4_en.pdf
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Correct, but the second line of the original post implied Class A hence answer geared in that direction and if you note the answer given to question two you'll see that Class D airways aren't actually a surprise to me.
For any Class D airspace, including airways, normal Class D rules apply including the extra privileges conferred by an IMC rating. Any VFR or IFR crossing of a Class D airway needs to be cleared by the appropriate controlling authority.
SVFR is not available in a Class D airway.
For any Class D airspace, including airways, normal Class D rules apply including the extra privileges conferred by an IMC rating. Any VFR or IFR crossing of a Class D airway needs to be cleared by the appropriate controlling authority.
SVFR is not available in a Class D airway.
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Go to this link...
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...ENR_3_1_en.pdf
Then stick "Class D' in your browser's search/find function and scroll through the results.
http://www.nats-uk.ead-it.com/aip/cu...ENR_3_1_en.pdf
Then stick "Class D' in your browser's search/find function and scroll through the results.
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Of course even in the UK not all airways are class A. For example IOM, Ireland.
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Just a couple of points as I am studying for aviation law
A glider is an aircraft isnt it? So a glider pilot can cross an airway in VMC without an IR or clearance?
.
Isnt the main reason that it is mandatory to file a flight plan when crossing the UK FIR boundary
3) No. An aircraft that is not IFR equipped can cross an airway by day in VMC but the pilot still needs an IR and a clearance needs to be obtained from the controlling authority.
.
You should however file a VFR flight plan on that route for S&R reasons if it takes you over the Irish Sea.
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Gliders can only cross airways by local agreement/letter of agreement with the ATS provider of the airspace concerned. There is no default position otherwise allowing gliders to cross airways unrestricted.
Here's an example.
See here for when to file a FPL.
Here's an example.
See here for when to file a FPL.
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Roffa
That could be a hot topic.
As you know for class D access (without crossing an international FIR) the FP has always been accepted verbally, well until recently when certain Scottish airports temporarily decided that they would prefer a FP filed before the flight. So to avoid any confusion, for class D crossing in the UK a FP does not usually need to be filed before the flight (but is "filed" when the airborne request is made). Prudence would suggest that for any flight over hostile / remote terrain or over any expanse of water filing pre flight may be a good idea although personally I have my doubts other than for areas where you know you may not be able to maintain a radio watch.
That could be a hot topic.
As you know for class D access (without crossing an international FIR) the FP has always been accepted verbally, well until recently when certain Scottish airports temporarily decided that they would prefer a FP filed before the flight. So to avoid any confusion, for class D crossing in the UK a FP does not usually need to be filed before the flight (but is "filed" when the airborne request is made). Prudence would suggest that for any flight over hostile / remote terrain or over any expanse of water filing pre flight may be a good idea although personally I have my doubts other than for areas where you know you may not be able to maintain a radio watch.
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I don't see why it's a hot topic.
The situation in Scotland is temporary and if you read the link it describes abbreviated flight plans.
So I'm not sure what the point of your post (again) was.
The situation in Scotland is temporary and if you read the link it describes abbreviated flight plans.
So I'm not sure what the point of your post (again) was.
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It was a hot topic in another place recently with quite a number of contributions.
The way of threads has always been to add a little to the previous post - sometimes totally on track, sometimes a little off. Some could read the link you gave and think that they needed to file a FP for class D access in the UK which as we all know you dont.
The way of threads has always been to add a little to the previous post - sometimes totally on track, sometimes a little off. Some could read the link you gave and think that they needed to file a FP for class D access in the UK which as we all know you dont.
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You two are really confusing me
SVFR is available up to Fl 200 in Class D airspace in Ireland is it not?
Available in Ireland, in the airway is it not?
Roffa example of the flight plan (thank you) confirms my original query (should, by the way isnt really accurate wording)
Advised to file over the sea and MUST file crossing the UK FIR boundary
SVFR is not available in a Class D airway.
SVFR is only available in a Control Zone.
Roffa example of the flight plan (thank you) confirms my original query (should, by the way isnt really accurate wording)
Advised to file over the sea and MUST file crossing the UK FIR boundary
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There is no class D in Ireland. There is class D in Northern Ireland.
As has been stated previously SVFR is ONLY available in a control zone (CTR)....nowhere else.
No control zone that I know of goes up to FL200.
As has been stated previously SVFR is ONLY available in a control zone (CTR)....nowhere else.
No control zone that I know of goes up to FL200.
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I think a BIG mistake is to get attached to the word "airway". This is a peculiar UK PPL tradition, where instructors use the word "airway" to basically scare students into avoiding Class A airspace. In much of southern Europe, you fly VFR on published airways (IFR routes), because that's where their simple-minded ATC expect to see traffic.
All that matters, when it comes to pilot privileges, is the ICAO airspace class i.e. A,B,C,D,E,F,G.
An "airway" is just a line on the map; it means nothing re pilot privileges.
You cannot enter A without an IR, unless it touches the ground in which case it can be done under SVFR. In practice, a non-IR pilot (or for that matter a pilot who has no license whatever but merely can fly and knows the protocol) could ask for an IFR clearance and - outside the UK, anyway - he would probably get it. But his acceptance of it would be illegal.
And yes to be legal you need to carry the equipment specified by the airspace owner for that flight rule (VFR/IFR etc). Again, no way to check this apart from a ramp check, though a non-8.33 radio might eventually expose you if you were flying above FL195
The filing of a flight plan is another subject. VFR flight plans are generally never looked at by anybody so filing one doesn't get you any clearances.
All that matters, when it comes to pilot privileges, is the ICAO airspace class i.e. A,B,C,D,E,F,G.
An "airway" is just a line on the map; it means nothing re pilot privileges.
You cannot enter A without an IR, unless it touches the ground in which case it can be done under SVFR. In practice, a non-IR pilot (or for that matter a pilot who has no license whatever but merely can fly and knows the protocol) could ask for an IFR clearance and - outside the UK, anyway - he would probably get it. But his acceptance of it would be illegal.
And yes to be legal you need to carry the equipment specified by the airspace owner for that flight rule (VFR/IFR etc). Again, no way to check this apart from a ramp check, though a non-8.33 radio might eventually expose you if you were flying above FL195
The filing of a flight plan is another subject. VFR flight plans are generally never looked at by anybody so filing one doesn't get you any clearances.
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flythisway, aviation law is generally specific to individual countries. It's no wonder you're confused if you're applying one country's laws or rules across international or FIR boundaries to another country.
The logical assumption for this thread, given that it's in a south westerly direction and to Caernarfon, is that it's wholly within UK airspace. Just because it goes over the Irish Sea doesn't mean it goes into Irish airspace. Go look at a chart.
Neither myself nor anyone else is confusing you, you are being remarkably successful at confusing yourself.
The logical assumption for this thread, given that it's in a south westerly direction and to Caernarfon, is that it's wholly within UK airspace. Just because it goes over the Irish Sea doesn't mean it goes into Irish airspace. Go look at a chart.
Neither myself nor anyone else is confusing you, you are being remarkably successful at confusing yourself.
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IO540,
The biggest mistakes are to muddy the waters/answers with irrelevancies or info that's incorrect rather than just answering the original question(s) being asked.
I think a BIG mistake is to get attached to the word "airway". This is a peculiar UK PPL tradition, where instructors use the word "airway" to basically scare students into avoiding Class A airspace. In much of southern Europe, you fly VFR on published airways (IFR routes), because that's where their simple-minded ATC expect to see traffic.
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Roffa, Ok you say SVFR is not available in an airway, the Irish Air Pilot which is online (year 2006)
http://www.irishaviation.ie/safe_reg...ENR_1_2_en.pdf
says it is--Yes I am sure Aviation Law can be specific but my understanding is that the JAR PPL is for flight within Europe-so should I arrive at the international FIR boundary with my JAR PPL pleading ignoarnce because it was issued in the UK.
Can you see where it can be confusing where an official document says one thing and a stranger on PPrune says something else and that before I even mention again that Fuji thinks the IOM and Ireland are in the UK ! Should you at least know where the UK is before you debate UK Airspace?
http://www.irishaviation.ie/safe_reg...ENR_1_2_en.pdf
says it is--Yes I am sure Aviation Law can be specific but my understanding is that the JAR PPL is for flight within Europe-so should I arrive at the international FIR boundary with my JAR PPL pleading ignoarnce because it was issued in the UK.
Can you see where it can be confusing where an official document says one thing and a stranger on PPrune says something else and that before I even mention again that Fuji thinks the IOM and Ireland are in the UK ! Should you at least know where the UK is before you debate UK Airspace?