Irish sea airway crossing / transit?
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flythisway,
Does it? Care to exactly show me where?
I'll just throw the ICAO definition of Special VFR into the mix for you...
Special VFR flight. A VFR flight cleared by air traffic control
to operate within a control zone in meteorological conditions
below VMC.
Now, care also to show me where Ireland has filed a difference with ICAO to allow SVFR in airways as opposed to just in control zones or do you want to rethink your answer?
Roffa, Ok you say SVFR is not available in an airway, the Irish Air Pilot which is online (year 2006)
http://www.irishaviation.ie/safe_reg...ENR_1_2_en.pdf
says it is
http://www.irishaviation.ie/safe_reg...ENR_1_2_en.pdf
says it is
I'll just throw the ICAO definition of Special VFR into the mix for you...
Special VFR flight. A VFR flight cleared by air traffic control
to operate within a control zone in meteorological conditions
below VMC.
Now, care also to show me where Ireland has filed a difference with ICAO to allow SVFR in airways as opposed to just in control zones or do you want to rethink your answer?
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I can't find where it says SVFR is permissible in airways either. Every refence is to control zones (same as the UK). Perhaps we have a basic misunderstanding of terms here (e.g control zones)?
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OK-was it the case that there used to be Class D in (S) Ireland because I was looking at the Irish Airpilot.
What is the Irish Air Pilot? Do you mean the AIP (Aeronautical Information Publication) that you published a link to? Or is it some old magazine?
The 2006 page that you linked to in the AIP is the most recent page.
Also bear in mind, that apart from some very remote spaces over the Atlantic Ocean which you aren't likely to visit in a light aircraft unless seriously lost, all controlled airspace in Ireland is class C.
VFR flight is welcome in class C airspace.
dp
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My 2 cents:
File SVFR flight plan and talk to them controllers about what you want to do. Learn to negociate on the radio. (Or get that IFR rating). They won't clear you through and then try to "get" you.
Air law is not (mostly) about safety, it's about nailability. That is if something go wrong they (govt) want to make sure you get nailed.
File SVFR flight plan and talk to them controllers about what you want to do. Learn to negociate on the radio. (Or get that IFR rating). They won't clear you through and then try to "get" you.
Air law is not (mostly) about safety, it's about nailability. That is if something go wrong they (govt) want to make sure you get nailed.
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Simples
Irish Air Pilot 2006
2.10. VFR flights which are operated within Classes B, C, and D airspace or as special VFR flights shall
comply with the provisions of Rules 27 to 31.
Hows that Roffa.
Cannot find any reference to prove Isle of Man or Ireland isnt in the UK, but take it from me its schoolboy geography.
Irish Air Pilot 2006
2.10. VFR flights which are operated within Classes B, C, and D airspace or as special VFR flights shall
comply with the provisions of Rules 27 to 31.
Hows that Roffa.
Cannot find any reference to prove Isle of Man or Ireland isnt in the UK, but take it from me its schoolboy geography.
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flythisway,
I am tempted to say there's only one person being simples here, but that would be a bit rude so I won't.
Irrelevant I'm afraid. All that says is what rules must be followed in certain classes of airspace (e.g. B, C, D) not type of airspace (e.g. CTR, CTA, TMA, airway etc). So yes, you can fly VFR in a Class C airway but it does not imply that SVFR is also available in that Class C airway because...
So, again, please show me where Ireland has filed a difference from ICAO that allows SVFR flight in anything other than a Control Zone*.
* this is easily done.
p.s. making text bigger doesn't prove anything, if I were you I'd stop digging.
Simples
Hows that Roffa.
Hows that Roffa.
2.10. VFR flights which are operated within Classes B, C, and D airspace or as special VFR flights shall comply with the provisions of Rules 27 to 31.
So, again, please show me where Ireland has filed a difference from ICAO that allows SVFR flight in anything other than a Control Zone*.
* this is easily done.
p.s. making text bigger doesn't prove anything, if I were you I'd stop digging.
Last edited by Roffa; 13th Apr 2010 at 08:02.
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Roffa,
I've come to the conclusion that flythisway is a troll. They ask a question, and then argue that the answer they get is wrong.
Doesn't sound to me like someone who has come looking for an answer...most likely looking for some entertainment.
What entertainment trolls get, I've never understood.
dp
I've come to the conclusion that flythisway is a troll. They ask a question, and then argue that the answer they get is wrong.
Doesn't sound to me like someone who has come looking for an answer...most likely looking for some entertainment.
What entertainment trolls get, I've never understood.
dp
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Look, I appreciate Roffa and DP that you are on here to demonstrate your superior knowledge to others and feel threatened when challenged, I on the other hand am not here for that purpose, I am actually trying to learn something if you can help with that please do so, if not why not move on.
I may be a very inexperienced beginner but I do have a reasonable command of the English language and an understanding of where the UK actually is (a point neither of you have chosen to comment on).
The above statement mentions B, C and D airspace and also states thyat SVFR flights within that airspace shall comply etc.. That suggest to me that SVFR flights must be allowable in that type of airspace-that is how it is written, I am just repeating how its written thats all.
DP you said that all controlled airsace in Ireland is Class C so from the above information taken from the Irish Air Pilot it would seem that VFR & SVFR flight is permissable in the Irish Airway system. It may be that that information is out of date, i do not really know but you dont have to resort to name calling to make a point--just publish the AIP section or link that replaces the 2006 info i have
By the way
Could that be, and yes that is a question, because as DP says all Irish Comtrolled airspace is Class C so it is not in fact a difference? The difference is all Irish CAS is Class C which possibly brings about the anomally.
I may be a very inexperienced beginner but I do have a reasonable command of the English language and an understanding of where the UK actually is (a point neither of you have chosen to comment on).
VFR flights which are operated within Classes B, C, and D airspace or as special VFR flights shall
comply with the provisions of Rules 27 to 31.
comply with the provisions of Rules 27 to 31.
The above statement mentions B, C and D airspace and also states thyat SVFR flights within that airspace shall comply etc.. That suggest to me that SVFR flights must be allowable in that type of airspace-that is how it is written, I am just repeating how its written thats all.
DP you said that all controlled airsace in Ireland is Class C so from the above information taken from the Irish Air Pilot it would seem that VFR & SVFR flight is permissable in the Irish Airway system. It may be that that information is out of date, i do not really know but you dont have to resort to name calling to make a point--just publish the AIP section or link that replaces the 2006 info i have
By the way
So, again, please show me where Ireland has filed a difference from ICAO that allows SVFR flight in anything other than a Control Zone*.
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I may be a very inexperienced beginner but I do have a reasonable command of the English language and an understanding of where the UK actually is (a point neither of you have chosen to comment on).
just publish the AIP section or link that replaces the 2006 info i have
from the above information taken from the Irish Air Pilot
if not why not move on.
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Flythisway
I am prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt because I hope you are an aspiring pilot. (or perhaps one already).
Therefore take it from me if you continue in this vein you will not make any friends here and people will simply ignore you.
While a little friendly banter may take place between us old timers many of us know each other quite well. PPRuNe is not really about point scoring but gentle debate of issues of interest to pilots. You will find that there are some incredibly knowledgeable people on here (like Roffa, and DP where it comes to all matters Irish). That does not of course always mean they are right, but do try and engage constructively in the debate.
In so far as your comments about the IofM FWIW of course you are correct. The IofM and the CIs are not part of the UK for political purposes but are of course part of the BI for geographical purposes. For that matter neither is Eire whereas Northern Ireland is part of the UK. I think we are all well aware of the distinction and have debated in the past some of the pecularities of the administration of their airspace. Posts on PPRuNe are not always going to be highly accurate and technical pieces of word craft as most of us cant be bothered although where it is the subject of the actual debate we try and be correct.
In short forgive me but I would love to have you take part in the debate but you are best not too come across as a complete troll, because if you do, you will simply be ignored.
I am prepared to give you the benefit of the doubt because I hope you are an aspiring pilot. (or perhaps one already).
Therefore take it from me if you continue in this vein you will not make any friends here and people will simply ignore you.
While a little friendly banter may take place between us old timers many of us know each other quite well. PPRuNe is not really about point scoring but gentle debate of issues of interest to pilots. You will find that there are some incredibly knowledgeable people on here (like Roffa, and DP where it comes to all matters Irish). That does not of course always mean they are right, but do try and engage constructively in the debate.
In so far as your comments about the IofM FWIW of course you are correct. The IofM and the CIs are not part of the UK for political purposes but are of course part of the BI for geographical purposes. For that matter neither is Eire whereas Northern Ireland is part of the UK. I think we are all well aware of the distinction and have debated in the past some of the pecularities of the administration of their airspace. Posts on PPRuNe are not always going to be highly accurate and technical pieces of word craft as most of us cant be bothered although where it is the subject of the actual debate we try and be correct.
In short forgive me but I would love to have you take part in the debate but you are best not too come across as a complete troll, because if you do, you will simply be ignored.
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The IofM and the CIs are not part of the UK for political purposes but are of course part of the BI for geographical purposes.
I have plenty of experience of forums thank you and I am well familiar with people who really do believe they are knowledeable and become very uncomfortable when challenged.
I am not here to make friends, just to learn, if you are uncomfortable with free speech, you and 'your friends' know what they can do dont they?
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Flythisway
Fair enough.
.. and I am frequently wrong, I have no problem with that.
As to coming here to learn, I think you have already got that horribly wrong. I dont see it says that anywhere on the tin.
Anyway good luck to you, even if for the time being I cant take you seriously.
Fair enough.
.. and I am frequently wrong, I have no problem with that.
As to coming here to learn, I think you have already got that horribly wrong. I dont see it says that anywhere on the tin.
Anyway good luck to you, even if for the time being I cant take you seriously.
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flythisway,
That made me smile. Yes, I'm threatened but will be brave and take your "I am actually trying to learn something if you can help with that please do so" at face value.
I'll say it one last time...
Look at what you've written where it's highlighted in bold above. That is where you are going wrong in your understanding.
Yes, SVFR could be permitted in any of those classes of airspace mentioned but only in one type of airspace, a control zone. That is implicit in the very definition of what SVFR is, see post further back for that to save me copying it again. Oh what the heck! Here it is...
Special VFR flight. A VFR flight cleared by air traffic control
to operate within a control zone in meteorological conditions
below VMC.
Now to the best of my knowledge, and you haven't indicated otherwise, that ICAO definition of SVFR flight is the same in both the airspace of the UK (Scotland, England, Wales, (IOM!) & Northern Ireland) and also the airspace of the Republic of Ireland. So you will not get a SVFR clearance in an airway or a control area (terminal or otherwise) the airspace of which by definition will always start at a level above the surface but just in a control zone, the airspace of which by definition will always start at the surface.
I don't think I can make it any clearer than that and if you choose not to agree then that's your prerogative but, I'm afraid, to put it simply you will be wrong in your understanding.
Look, I appreciate Roffa and DP that you are on here to demonstrate your superior knowledge to others and feel threatened when challenged, I on the other hand am not here for that purpose, I am actually trying to learn something if you can help with that please do so, if not why not move on.
I may be a very inexperienced beginner but I do have a reasonable command of the English language and an understanding of where the UK actually is (a point neither of you have chosen to comment on).
Quote:
VFR flights which are operated within Classes B, C, and D airspace or as special VFR flights shall
comply with the provisions of Rules 27 to 31.
The above statement mentions B, C and D airspace and also states thyat SVFR flights within that airspace shall comply etc.. That suggest to me that SVFR flights must be allowable in that type of airspace-that is how it is written, I am just repeating how its written thats all.
Quote:
VFR flights which are operated within Classes B, C, and D airspace or as special VFR flights shall
comply with the provisions of Rules 27 to 31.
The above statement mentions B, C and D airspace and also states thyat SVFR flights within that airspace shall comply etc.. That suggest to me that SVFR flights must be allowable in that type of airspace-that is how it is written, I am just repeating how its written thats all.
Look at what you've written where it's highlighted in bold above. That is where you are going wrong in your understanding.
Yes, SVFR could be permitted in any of those classes of airspace mentioned but only in one type of airspace, a control zone. That is implicit in the very definition of what SVFR is, see post further back for that to save me copying it again. Oh what the heck! Here it is...
Special VFR flight. A VFR flight cleared by air traffic control
to operate within a control zone in meteorological conditions
below VMC.
Now to the best of my knowledge, and you haven't indicated otherwise, that ICAO definition of SVFR flight is the same in both the airspace of the UK (Scotland, England, Wales, (IOM!) & Northern Ireland) and also the airspace of the Republic of Ireland. So you will not get a SVFR clearance in an airway or a control area (terminal or otherwise) the airspace of which by definition will always start at a level above the surface but just in a control zone, the airspace of which by definition will always start at the surface.
I don't think I can make it any clearer than that and if you choose not to agree then that's your prerogative but, I'm afraid, to put it simply you will be wrong in your understanding.
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flythisway I have a question for you. If apples are green and grass is green does that mean that apples are made of grass? That's essentially the same as your problem here.
Some CTRs are class D and some CTAs are class D. Are CTRs and CTAs the same thing? No, they most definitely are not. (I am of course assuming you understand the difference between a control zone (CTR) and control area (CTA).) SVFR is only permitted in a CTR.
Read pararagh 2.4 of the link that you posted and then think is SVFR permissible in an airway? You'll find that the only logical (and therefore correct) answer is no, SVFR is not permitted in an airway.
AFAIK in the IofM the rule is the same as the UK ANO, SVFR is only permitted in a control zone.
Some CTRs are class D and some CTAs are class D. Are CTRs and CTAs the same thing? No, they most definitely are not. (I am of course assuming you understand the difference between a control zone (CTR) and control area (CTA).) SVFR is only permitted in a CTR.
Read pararagh 2.4 of the link that you posted and then think is SVFR permissible in an airway? You'll find that the only logical (and therefore correct) answer is no, SVFR is not permitted in an airway.
AFAIK in the IofM the rule is the same as the UK ANO, SVFR is only permitted in a control zone.
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Special VFR flight. A VFR flight cleared by air traffic control
to operate within a control zone in meteorological conditions
below VMC.
to operate within a control zone in meteorological conditions
below VMC.
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UK SVFR works the same as everywhere else (allowing access to Class A zones and allowing access in reduced weather). HOWEVER, a UK PPL has a restriction that imposes much higher visibility minima for using SVFR. This restriction effectively makes the 'bad weather' aspect irrelevant. For IR and IMCr pilots, SVFR allows VFR flights access to zones in less than VFR conditions.
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As mentioned the above definition is the basic ICAO one of SVFR.
The MATS one says...
Special VFR Flight A flight made at any time in a control zone which is Class A airspace or made in any other control zone in IMC or at night; in
respect of which the appropriate air traffic control unit has given
permission for the flight to be made in accordance with special
instructions given by that unit instead of in accordance with the
Instrument Flight Rules; and in the course of which the aircraft
complies with any instructions given by that unit and remains clear
of cloud and with the surface in sight. (RoA)
The UK AIP syas this.
As mm_flynn says, it's primarily UK pilot licensing that adds any more restrictive minima to SVFR than ICAO might have otherwise intended although as stated in the AIP there is an overriding minima below which no SVFR clearances will be issued by ATC. Night is perhaps also significant as in the UK all flying at night must be in accordance with IFR.
The MATS one says...
Special VFR Flight A flight made at any time in a control zone which is Class A airspace or made in any other control zone in IMC or at night; in
respect of which the appropriate air traffic control unit has given
permission for the flight to be made in accordance with special
instructions given by that unit instead of in accordance with the
Instrument Flight Rules; and in the course of which the aircraft
complies with any instructions given by that unit and remains clear
of cloud and with the surface in sight. (RoA)
The UK AIP syas this.
As mm_flynn says, it's primarily UK pilot licensing that adds any more restrictive minima to SVFR than ICAO might have otherwise intended although as stated in the AIP there is an overriding minima below which no SVFR clearances will be issued by ATC. Night is perhaps also significant as in the UK all flying at night must be in accordance with IFR.
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Had a cracking day yesterday to Caernarfon.
Departed from class D airspace, after asking for IFR departure (non-airways) but was given SVFR (low cloud), climbed up to FL80 on top, cleared the front moving south, bobbed down to FL60 over the Irish Sea to avoid the airway and superb vis over Irish Sea and Wales.
A little disconcerting being 25 miles + over the sea but as I keep telling myself (as does everyone else), the aircraft doesn't know its flying over the sea, so no reason why there should be any problems! Still, doesn't stop you listening to every change in engine note!
Departed from class D airspace, after asking for IFR departure (non-airways) but was given SVFR (low cloud), climbed up to FL80 on top, cleared the front moving south, bobbed down to FL60 over the Irish Sea to avoid the airway and superb vis over Irish Sea and Wales.
A little disconcerting being 25 miles + over the sea but as I keep telling myself (as does everyone else), the aircraft doesn't know its flying over the sea, so no reason why there should be any problems! Still, doesn't stop you listening to every change in engine note!