'Business trips'
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'Business trips'
A few of us at my place of work hold flying licenses, two hold a PPL and one a CPL.
Our boss tried his hand at rotary flying once and is still a very keen 'aviator'. As such he has asked us if we could fly our colleages to business meetings within the UK (using the aircraft we hire) as this would save money on overnight stays and is considerably quicker than going by road.
For example, one trip might be to the Isle of Man to speak with a client and then to return within the same day. Hiring the clubs a/c for the day.
Just wondering as to the legalities of such trips relative to the licenses held. 'Flying for renumeration', 'CPL flying commercial ops only if an AOC is in place' etc etc sprang to mind as we considered the options. Is the water as murky or the slope as slippery as we think?
Our boss tried his hand at rotary flying once and is still a very keen 'aviator'. As such he has asked us if we could fly our colleages to business meetings within the UK (using the aircraft we hire) as this would save money on overnight stays and is considerably quicker than going by road.
For example, one trip might be to the Isle of Man to speak with a client and then to return within the same day. Hiring the clubs a/c for the day.
Just wondering as to the legalities of such trips relative to the licenses held. 'Flying for renumeration', 'CPL flying commercial ops only if an AOC is in place' etc etc sprang to mind as we considered the options. Is the water as murky or the slope as slippery as we think?
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I guess you wouldn't be doing this out of the goodness of your heart and the company would be covering this costs of the flights - this would not be legal on a PPL and without an AOC. You're probably still on dodgy ground even if you paid personally for the flying (not a very good deal for you running expensive company errands out of your own pocket) because the flight would not be taking place if not for commercial reasons - no doubt someone more familiar will clarify the rules shortly.
Beside the legality and finances, another point to bear in mind is that as soon as you start flying for these sort of reasons you are entering a different world and exposing yourself to many new problems and pressures that can potentially bite you severely. Flight safety decisions vs business pressures vs keeping the boss happy vs weather, tech, legality etc. Potentially lethal minefield. I have a very good example - perhaps I'll write it up later.
Beside the legality and finances, another point to bear in mind is that as soon as you start flying for these sort of reasons you are entering a different world and exposing yourself to many new problems and pressures that can potentially bite you severely. Flight safety decisions vs business pressures vs keeping the boss happy vs weather, tech, legality etc. Potentially lethal minefield. I have a very good example - perhaps I'll write it up later.
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Actually not. This is perfectly feasible, even if your boss pays all the flying costs (not just an even share), even if you only hold a PPL. So it doesn't even have to cost you a penny.
There are a few restrictions through. From memory:
- The flying only needs to be incidental to the trip. In other words, the trip would have been possible, and making sense, without (you) flying. This prevents aerial work being done under these provisions.
- Your boss cannot require/force your co-workers to fly with you. They should have the option of going by another means of transport.
I think there's an AIC, safety sense leaflet or something to this effect from the CAA. Should not be too hard to find.
====================
Edited: found it.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1428/Summa...INAL9Mar10.pdf
Look at para 6.4 (page 6).
There are a few restrictions through. From memory:
- The flying only needs to be incidental to the trip. In other words, the trip would have been possible, and making sense, without (you) flying. This prevents aerial work being done under these provisions.
- Your boss cannot require/force your co-workers to fly with you. They should have the option of going by another means of transport.
I think there's an AIC, safety sense leaflet or something to this effect from the CAA. Should not be too hard to find.
====================
Edited: found it.
http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/1428/Summa...INAL9Mar10.pdf
Look at para 6.4 (page 6).
Last edited by BackPacker; 16th Mar 2010 at 19:33.
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ANO: Public transport and aerial work – exceptions – flying displays
265.—
.
As long as you don't exceed the running/operating costs of the aircraft, be it owned or hired and you fly it yourself, I reckon you are watertight.
If you are offered the chance to hire an aircraft and the pilot, be careful, that's AOC territory and where it starts getting sticky.
265.—
Valuable consideration given or promised to the owner or operator of an aircraft taking
part in such a race, contest or flying display and such valuable consideration is not more
than the direct costs of the flight and a contribution to the annual costs of the aircraft
which contribution must bear no greater proportion to the total annual costs of the aircraft
than the duration of the flight bears to the annual flying hours of the aircraft;
part in such a race, contest or flying display and such valuable consideration is not more
than the direct costs of the flight and a contribution to the annual costs of the aircraft
which contribution must bear no greater proportion to the total annual costs of the aircraft
than the duration of the flight bears to the annual flying hours of the aircraft;
As long as you don't exceed the running/operating costs of the aircraft, be it owned or hired and you fly it yourself, I reckon you are watertight.
If you are offered the chance to hire an aircraft and the pilot, be careful, that's AOC territory and where it starts getting sticky.
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Many thanks for the responses. I'll have a look for the Safety Sense leaflet.
As said, the journeys are perfectly feasible by road, rail, ferry etc. The main benefit, in the eyes of the employer is time. A 2 hour flight there, a few hours meeting the client and a 2 hour flight back is more time-efficient than the usual 10 hour return drive over a 2 day period, with a hotel stay in between.
As for the passengers, they're excited more than anything.
Having looked at what I thought were the relevant entitlements of the licenses, the legal jargon is not something I pretend to be able to interpret perfectly.
As said, the journeys are perfectly feasible by road, rail, ferry etc. The main benefit, in the eyes of the employer is time. A 2 hour flight there, a few hours meeting the client and a 2 hour flight back is more time-efficient than the usual 10 hour return drive over a 2 day period, with a hotel stay in between.
As for the passengers, they're excited more than anything.
Having looked at what I thought were the relevant entitlements of the licenses, the legal jargon is not something I pretend to be able to interpret perfectly.
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Niknak, it's not a flying display we're talking about is it, so I don't think that paragraph of the ANO is applicable.
BackPacker, if it's not legal for me to fly a friend and have him pay for 100% of the flight then I would be very surprised to find that I could fly on business and have a company pay for 100% of the flight. Is that correct?
BackPacker, if it's not legal for me to fly a friend and have him pay for 100% of the flight then I would be very surprised to find that I could fly on business and have a company pay for 100% of the flight. Is that correct?
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Torque Tonight, did you actually read that para 6.4 article that I was referring to? The CAA considers this "motor mileage" and in the same league as reimbursing you for your car costs if you drive to a business meeting. You don't need a commercial motor vehicle license for that, and similarly you don't need a commercial pilots license if you fly to such a meeting and get "mileage costs" recovered.
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Cheers Backpacker. The article is very clear and reasonable too. Seems we would be perfectly legal to carry out such flights.
6.4 Exception No 4 – Recovery of direct costs (motor mileage) (Article 268)
6.4.1 In the past PPL holders have queried whether they are entitled to recover from their employers the costs of running their own aircraft or hiring an aircraft to fly themselves on business, e.g. to a business meeting. As they have reasonably argued, they would be entitled to travel by train or car and recover their expenses of so travelling and wish instead to recover some or all of the costs of flying. Insofar as the employer has an interest in the employee travelling to a particular location at a particular time, then any payment made by the employer (even a contribution to costs) in relation to the flight will be in respect of the flight or the purpose of the flight. Thus the flight would be for the purpose of aerial work and outside the privileges of a PPL. However, an exception has been established permitting a PPL holder to recover the direct costs (but not the annual costs) in such a situation the flight being private for all purposes.
6.4.2 There is a proviso ensuring that on such a flight no one is carried who is under any legal or contractual obligation to be carried, e.g. the boss cannot order members of
6.4.1 In the past PPL holders have queried whether they are entitled to recover from their employers the costs of running their own aircraft or hiring an aircraft to fly themselves on business, e.g. to a business meeting. As they have reasonably argued, they would be entitled to travel by train or car and recover their expenses of so travelling and wish instead to recover some or all of the costs of flying. Insofar as the employer has an interest in the employee travelling to a particular location at a particular time, then any payment made by the employer (even a contribution to costs) in relation to the flight will be in respect of the flight or the purpose of the flight. Thus the flight would be for the purpose of aerial work and outside the privileges of a PPL. However, an exception has been established permitting a PPL holder to recover the direct costs (but not the annual costs) in such a situation the flight being private for all purposes.
6.4.2 There is a proviso ensuring that on such a flight no one is carried who is under any legal or contractual obligation to be carried, e.g. the boss cannot order members of
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Fair enough, treating it like motor mileage is one thing but if you find yourself in a position where the boss expects you to fly on company business, carrying another employee and being at certain place at a certain time, all paid for by the business, then you're perilously close to CPL/AOC territory. If something went wrong I'm sure a CAA lawyer could really get stuck into that. Tread carefully, that's all.
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if you find yourself in a position where the boss expects you to fly on company business,
The other thing that you need to consider when doing this kind of thing is "dispatch reliability". Private car trips, airline trips and public transport trips all have a dispatch reliability of well over 95% - meaning that if you plan a trip, there's a chance of well over 95% that the trip will go exactly as planned. And if for some reason the trip doesn't go as planned, it's usually because of a condition that everybody understands.
Private aircraft, especially when limited to VFR conditions, do not have these dispatch reliability numbers. You have to make sure that your boss and your destination understand this, and that a thing like "it's a bit murky" can, will and should be a valid and unquestioned reason to cancel the trip. And of course, trip times being what they are, by the time you've decided that the trip cannot be completed by private aircraft, it's usually too late to switch to a car or public transport journey.
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There's is no requirement to be somewhere at a certain time and certainly there is no pressure to fly. If one of us says it can't be done, then alternative travel is booked.
We contact the client, arrange a meeting to fit around when we choose to travel.
In any case, Torque Tonight anymore concerns or potential issues please do say. I appreciate the input and various view points as none of us want to get shafted by the long and painful arm of the CAA.
We contact the client, arrange a meeting to fit around when we choose to travel.
In any case, Torque Tonight anymore concerns or potential issues please do say. I appreciate the input and various view points as none of us want to get shafted by the long and painful arm of the CAA.
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Thinking out loud here...you could all pay for it on a normal cost share basis then claim it back as a business expense. That way the books look straight from the CAA's point of view, and you don't end up out of pocket.
The other thing to watch is corporate liability insurance - you may find your insurance policy states you can't all fly together at the same time.
The other thing to watch is corporate liability insurance - you may find your insurance policy states you can't all fly together at the same time.
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you could all pay for it on a normal cost share basis then claim it back as a business expense.
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A few of us at my place of work hold flying licenses, two hold a PPL and one a CPL.
Our boss tried his hand at rotary flying once and is still a very keen 'aviator'. As such he has asked us if we could fly our colleages to business meetings within the UK (using the aircraft we hire) as this would save money on overnight stays and is considerably quicker than going by road.
For example, one trip might be to the Isle of Man to speak with a client and then to return within the same day. Hiring the clubs a/c for the day.
Just wondering as to the legalities of such trips relative to the licenses held. 'Flying for renumeration', 'CPL flying commercial ops only if an AOC is in place' etc etc sprang to mind as we considered the options. Is the water as murky or the slope as slippery as we think?
Our boss tried his hand at rotary flying once and is still a very keen 'aviator'. As such he has asked us if we could fly our colleages to business meetings within the UK (using the aircraft we hire) as this would save money on overnight stays and is considerably quicker than going by road.
For example, one trip might be to the Isle of Man to speak with a client and then to return within the same day. Hiring the clubs a/c for the day.
Just wondering as to the legalities of such trips relative to the licenses held. 'Flying for renumeration', 'CPL flying commercial ops only if an AOC is in place' etc etc sprang to mind as we considered the options. Is the water as murky or the slope as slippery as we think?
If your company rents the planes and issues them to you FOC, then you can fly on the company business, carrying company mates and goods, on a PPL.
And you can be paid as normal for your time, while flying.
Not a penny associated with the plane will pass through your hands. That's important.
This is neater than you renting the plane and then getting reimbursed by the company, which raises possible issues with both HMRC and various bits of the ANO.
The practicalities of flying 'on business' are a different matter.
"Business" could mean anything from meeting tame parties like suppliers (where it doesn't matter if you get delayed or cannot turn up on a given day) all the way through to formal initial customer visits where you absolutely have to be there.
The former you can do easily enough in some rented wreckage. The latter needs a much better mission capability than that. I have an IR and a pretty capable IFR tourer and can easily do supplier visits, conferences etc but serious customer visits I have rarely done, although I would have done more of them had I been based at an airport with an ILS.
An IR helps, but you also need a more advanced plane to use it properly. Also, there are times when a flight is doable low level ("VFR") but the kind of high altitude weather you get into with an IR can be more hazardous.
The CPL is a redherring in this case; it is applicable only if the pilot is contractually required to fly (and is not given the choice of other means of travel).
Finally, the IOM suffers from utterly sh*****y weather. I recall trying to get there last year, and it was below IFR minima every Friday for four weeks. The 5th time I made it... They pay a lot less tax, which is just as well
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IF YOU HAVE TIME TO SPARE, GO BY AIR.......
I really wanted to fly to a family reunion. Impress everybody. Planned ahead, rented a plane. Filed a flight plan, IFR. Took off early in the morning.
And 45 minutes along, ran into unexpected and unforecast dodgy weather. The enroute contoller confirmed that a sigmet had just been issued!
I'm so glad I was alone. No pressure from the passengers, no need to explain or apologise.
I executed a 180, and went back to the point of departure, where my good old automobile was parked, and DROVE to the family reunion. Which when you think about it, was the only right and sensible thing to do.
Would you be able to do that if you had all your colleagues along for the ride?
I really wanted to fly to a family reunion. Impress everybody. Planned ahead, rented a plane. Filed a flight plan, IFR. Took off early in the morning.
And 45 minutes along, ran into unexpected and unforecast dodgy weather. The enroute contoller confirmed that a sigmet had just been issued!
I'm so glad I was alone. No pressure from the passengers, no need to explain or apologise.
I executed a 180, and went back to the point of departure, where my good old automobile was parked, and DROVE to the family reunion. Which when you think about it, was the only right and sensible thing to do.
Would you be able to do that if you had all your colleagues along for the ride?
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Thanks Backpacker & Pamelar, if that's the case I think we'd all agree that legally you're squeaky clean. The other point I was alluding to was that as soon as you are flying on a 'mission' of some sort rather than purely recreational flying, your decision making process will come under the influence of external factors which invariably work against flight safety. The go / no go decision cutoff will inevitably be skewed when commercial pressures are added to the mix. It takes some discipline to remain objective and make sound decisions and there have been plenty of PPLs who have ended up in smoking craters as a result of 'pressonitis' or pushing it a little too far. It's easy to scrub a fun Sunday afternoon flight if the weather looks a little dodgy - not so easy to cancel when the boss needs you to meet an important client to clinch a big contract. Your personal limits will shift slightly because you want to do your best for the boss and your job - maybe only slightly - but they will shift. Be careful.
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What happens is that a pilot who knows how to collect comprehensive weather data is probably more likely to cancel a trip well before departure.
On "business" trips, on the kinds where one has to be there, a smart pilot who has got the weather data ends up not so much getting into muck and going back (that's a VFR thing really) but more likely cancelling and driving /taking an airline on most of the occassions - simply because he can't take the risk of not arriving, and booking an airline needs to be done well ahead of time else you get shafted on the ticket price.
With passengers who have to be at work the following day, etc, I will cancel very readily because I don't want any hassle and don't want to pay for airline tickets getting them back home.
The other angle is that with most customers you want to conceal the use of a plane, because it is not trendy to show wealth, and a customer will realise he's paying for your pricey hobby That's another reason why one cancels a lot of potential GA flights to customers, because a delayed arrival is likely to reveal the means of travel.
I know of people who fly "GA" on business very successfully but they have serious high altitude radar equipped hardware, IRs of course, the flights are usually ILS to ILS airport, and I think most use twins because returning late in the day means flying a lot at night which is arguably questionable from a risk management POV if one does it often. And of course their home airport needs to be open late, and most GA ones aren't...
On selected occassions it works brilliantly and I have shrunk 7hr drives to 1.2hr flights, but in a typical IFR plane the despatch rate is poor unless one is visiting tame business contacts and billing the flying to the company, which is a 100% legit business expense but it isn't what I would necessarily call comprehensive use of a plane for business.
On "business" trips, on the kinds where one has to be there, a smart pilot who has got the weather data ends up not so much getting into muck and going back (that's a VFR thing really) but more likely cancelling and driving /taking an airline on most of the occassions - simply because he can't take the risk of not arriving, and booking an airline needs to be done well ahead of time else you get shafted on the ticket price.
With passengers who have to be at work the following day, etc, I will cancel very readily because I don't want any hassle and don't want to pay for airline tickets getting them back home.
The other angle is that with most customers you want to conceal the use of a plane, because it is not trendy to show wealth, and a customer will realise he's paying for your pricey hobby
That's another reason why one cancels a lot of potential GA flights to customers, because a delayed arrival is likely to reveal the means of travel.I know of people who fly "GA" on business very successfully but they have serious high altitude radar equipped hardware, IRs of course, the flights are usually ILS to ILS airport, and I think most use twins because returning late in the day means flying a lot at night which is arguably questionable from a risk management POV if one does it often. And of course their home airport needs to be open late, and most GA ones aren't...
On selected occassions it works brilliantly and I have shrunk 7hr drives to 1.2hr flights, but in a typical IFR plane the despatch rate is poor unless one is visiting tame business contacts and billing the flying to the company, which is a 100% legit business expense but it isn't what I would necessarily call comprehensive use of a plane for business.
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This is neater than you renting the plane and then getting reimbursed by the company, which raises possible issues with both HMRC
I'm self employed and don't do much flying for business (yet) but would hope to during the better months of the year. For info, the flying would save a lot of time (North East to Wales circa just over an hour, compared to 5+ hours), so there and back in a day is very easily do-able. I'm in property so visits to houses, sites, commercial buildings can be arranged at pretty much any time.
Does being self employed change anything?
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Interesting point here IO, there's an inference that declaring it to HMRC brings its own problems?
It also is a problem with the ANO in that you aren't supposed to make a profit on the flight and can recover only the direct costs, etc.... Basically the CAA wants a PPL to always end up out of pocket. But if the company supplies the plane to you to jump in and fly, and they pay for everything on it, that gets around the whole thing.
I'm self employed and don't do much flying for business (yet) but would hope to during the better months of the year. For info, the flying would save a lot of time (North East to Wales circa just over an hour, compared to 5+ hours), so there and back in a day is very easily do-able. I'm in property so visits to houses, sites, commercial buildings can be arranged at pretty much any time.
Does being self employed change anything?
Does being self employed change anything?