Close Calls
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Close Calls
I have had at least 4 close calls (is there a definition?) in the last few weeks flying between two cities in the Minneapoli area. I have the TIS-B traffic sytem that alerts me when traffic is near within 6 NM and verbally warns me within 2 NM. In each case it is apparent the other plane didn't have a clue I was there, probably since most planes do not have this sytem. Unfortunately it only works within about 40-50 miles of class B airspace. It make me wonder how many close calls exist that pilots are not even aware of. Without a diversion of the fligh path a coule of these may have been tragic. I tried flying at odd altitude but with the last close call we apparently both had the same idea. Systems for certiied aircraft that work everywhere in interogating the transponders of other aircraft cost about $13,000, but considering my life this is at stake, this is starting to look cheap. Anyone else experiencing this issue too many times or just unaware?
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Good TCAS systems based on TXPDR returns are wonderful in helping to deconflict traffic. Like all systems, they have their limitations and the main limitation is generally the pilot. The second, of course, is that it relies on the other guy using his system correctly as well, and having his transponder on in at least Mode C.
My first reaction on reading your post was that it illustrates the danger of relying on your on-board systems too much and not enough on airmanship. Your TIS-B system is good, but relies on several links - your GPS, the GPS satellite system, the ground station, etc. etc. etc.
Note also the limitations here.
They include:-
The Mark I eyeball remains your best friend and collision avoidance tool.
My first reaction on reading your post was that it illustrates the danger of relying on your on-board systems too much and not enough on airmanship. Your TIS-B system is good, but relies on several links - your GPS, the GPS satellite system, the ground station, etc. etc. etc.
Note also the limitations here.
They include:-
No transponder = no TIS-B target. Always look outside.
...
Pilots flying in visual meteorological conditions (VMC) are reminded that visual contact remains the only means of self separation.
...
All pilots/operators are reminded that the airborne equipment that displays other ADS-B equipped aircraft and transponder equipped aircraft via TIS-B is only for pilot situational awareness. This equipment is not approved as a collision avoidance tool.
...
Pilots flying in visual meteorological conditions (VMC) are reminded that visual contact remains the only means of self separation.
...
All pilots/operators are reminded that the airborne equipment that displays other ADS-B equipped aircraft and transponder equipped aircraft via TIS-B is only for pilot situational awareness. This equipment is not approved as a collision avoidance tool.
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Originally Posted by Captain Stable
The Mark I eyeball remains your best friend and collision avoidance tool.
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Thank you.
I've been flying for 36 years. I have flown with all sorts of Radar services - even Russian and Caribbean ones. I've used several different kinds of TCAS as they've evolved over the years. I don't need patronising.
Anyone who, when flying VFR, relies on keeping head down in the cockpit staring at a little screen when they SHOULD be looking out, seeing and avoiding, or relies on a Traffic Service from a hardworked controller at EGLF and concludes "If the guy (or gal) doesn't say anything I'm safe", needs his head examining.
Lookout first, last, and always. Lookout before turning. Lookout before descending. Lookout in the climb or descent. Lookout before any manoeuvre. Lookout.
End of story.
I've been flying for 36 years. I have flown with all sorts of Radar services - even Russian and Caribbean ones. I've used several different kinds of TCAS as they've evolved over the years. I don't need patronising.
Anyone who, when flying VFR, relies on keeping head down in the cockpit staring at a little screen when they SHOULD be looking out, seeing and avoiding, or relies on a Traffic Service from a hardworked controller at EGLF and concludes "If the guy (or gal) doesn't say anything I'm safe", needs his head examining.
Lookout first, last, and always. Lookout before turning. Lookout before descending. Lookout in the climb or descent. Lookout before any manoeuvre. Lookout.
End of story.
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This year I have had 3 near misses in about 60 hours of flying, some as a passenger in a shared plane. Every time we fly we get close to other aircraft but two of these close calls were due to the other guy's stupidity. One where the guy got his circuit wrong and descended on the live side and flew straight at us over the downwind numbers. We reckoned he never saw us! The second was a Europa overtook us and came within 100 metres. He said he never saw us and came very close to an RV before completely messing up the circuit and upsetting a few folk at an LAA flyin. The third one was when a twin came very close while under a LARS..when I protested I was told he had seen me and flown behingd me.
I'm not saying my flying is perfect (I know its NOT) but it is incredibly busy at times. Avoiding VRPs and VORs has to be a good idea.
I'm not saying my flying is perfect (I know its NOT) but it is incredibly busy at times. Avoiding VRPs and VORs has to be a good idea.
Pompey till I die
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Close calls
I keep a good lookout to try and avoid those planes. I also did when I was flying the cirrus with it's TCAS. It was incredible that it picked up LOTS of aircraft that I didn't see. In fact one was off to port for a few minutes and I didn't see it for quite a while even though I knew it was there.
Now, this being pprune: the training; my aviation skills; parentage and/or sexual orientation can all be called into question but the fact is take 1 average PPL and I garauntee that we're all missing LOTS more planes than we realise.
Of course, like everything automated, as soon as you start to rely on TCAS, GPS, automatic pilot the question is when it's not there can you still fly the plane ?
Hence why, imho, the look out is superior to the TCAS. Simply because it'll always be there whilst TCAS might not.
Cue lots of posting about the guy that had a stroke whilst flying and lost his sight.
Now, this being pprune: the training; my aviation skills; parentage and/or sexual orientation can all be called into question but the fact is take 1 average PPL and I garauntee that we're all missing LOTS more planes than we realise.
Of course, like everything automated, as soon as you start to rely on TCAS, GPS, automatic pilot the question is when it's not there can you still fly the plane ?
Hence why, imho, the look out is superior to the TCAS. Simply because it'll always be there whilst TCAS might not.
Cue lots of posting about the guy that had a stroke whilst flying and lost his sight.
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I garauntee that we're all missing LOTS more planes than we realise
I reckon I don't "miss LOTS more planes than I realise".
'Cos I know perfectly well, and always have done, that I miss most of them.
(I even never saw one the other day that was "one mile, reciprocal heading, same height" ... but I did turn right, just in case.)
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soay, I did not say that I see them all.
From attempting to be patronising on your first post, you are now attempting to put words in my mouth. You therefore do not deserve a reply. You get one anyway because I'm feeling generous even to people who behave like snot-nosed kids.
Some time, go and look up what service you get for "Traffic Service". Then check what you do if, unbeknown to you, you have R/T failure and don't receive the transmission giving details of a possible conflict, or the controller is too darned busy to notice. I assume you would carry on, fat dumb and happy, thumb up bum and brain in neutral, not bothering much to look out.
In case you forgot it from when you did your training (if, in fact, you are even licensed), the entire principle of VFR is "See and Avoid". YOU are responbile for avoiding other traffic. Get used to using nifty little bits of kit and when they fail, you're stuffed. Get used to assuming ATC will spoonfeed you and sooner or later you'll be stuffed.
Bye bye.
From attempting to be patronising on your first post, you are now attempting to put words in my mouth. You therefore do not deserve a reply. You get one anyway because I'm feeling generous even to people who behave like snot-nosed kids.
Some time, go and look up what service you get for "Traffic Service". Then check what you do if, unbeknown to you, you have R/T failure and don't receive the transmission giving details of a possible conflict, or the controller is too darned busy to notice. I assume you would carry on, fat dumb and happy, thumb up bum and brain in neutral, not bothering much to look out.
In case you forgot it from when you did your training (if, in fact, you are even licensed), the entire principle of VFR is "See and Avoid". YOU are responbile for avoiding other traffic. Get used to using nifty little bits of kit and when they fail, you're stuffed. Get used to assuming ATC will spoonfeed you and sooner or later you'll be stuffed.
Bye bye.
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A little harsh
Soay - you probably need to be a bit careful here. The "eyeball versus ATC" debate never generates a winner. I suspect that, like the rest of us, you retain SA when under ATC control by using the Mk 1 eyeball. My limited experience tells me to use all of the aids at my disposal, but never give control of your aircraft to anyone else, especially someone who is not in the air at the time.
Sorry if this sounds patronising, but that is exactly how your response to Capt Stable sounded to me.
Sorry if this sounds patronising, but that is exactly how your response to Capt Stable sounded to me.
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Captain Sable, if you reread my original post carefully, you'll note that it simply stated my experience of the limitations of the Mk. 1 eyeball, based on personal empirical evidence. You misconstrued that to imply that I rely on ATC and TCAS. Perhaps if I'd started it with the pronoun one instead of you, the misunderstanding would not have arisen, but I didn't want to come across all Prince Charles. You however, have not addressed the point I was making, preferring to resort to abuse.
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I've re-read your post and don't see the translation you attempt to imply. It appears that JTN concurs.
My point remains.
When VFR you, and you alone, are responsible for your aircraft avoiding other aircraft. You cannot delegate that responsibility to ATC under any service, nor is it sensible to get into the habit when flying VFR of having your head inside. No, it's sometimes not easy at all to spot other aircraft. I've often been given information about other aircraft and never spotted them. All the more reason to get into the habit of actively looking and honing your search technique rather than give up and get lazy.
TCAS can be a very useful tool particularly when being vectored around the sky close to places like CDG. But that's IFR and multi-crew, and therefore another ballgame entirely.
My point remains.
When VFR you, and you alone, are responsible for your aircraft avoiding other aircraft. You cannot delegate that responsibility to ATC under any service, nor is it sensible to get into the habit when flying VFR of having your head inside. No, it's sometimes not easy at all to spot other aircraft. I've often been given information about other aircraft and never spotted them. All the more reason to get into the habit of actively looking and honing your search technique rather than give up and get lazy.
TCAS can be a very useful tool particularly when being vectored around the sky close to places like CDG. But that's IFR and multi-crew, and therefore another ballgame entirely.
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I have read Soay's post & I'm afraid, Captain Stable, that what I understand him to be saying is: Radar WILL pick up targets far more reliably than any eyeball (provided it is switched on). That is all!!!
The eyeball cannot see through haze, cloud, into the sun etc.
Radar CAN.
He does not in any way suggest that one should RELY on radar & sit fat & happy till the bang.
Most people are saying that they missed MOST of them.
No one has said the radar missed ANY of them.
You, Captain, seem to be of the impression that everyone is somehow blundering through the sky oblivious to everything & that only pure luck is keeping us alive. Please try to believe that this is not the case.
I hope you see this as an attempt to clarify the actual situation & not an attempt to insult you.
The eyeball cannot see through haze, cloud, into the sun etc.
Radar CAN.
He does not in any way suggest that one should RELY on radar & sit fat & happy till the bang.
Most people are saying that they missed MOST of them.
No one has said the radar missed ANY of them.
You, Captain, seem to be of the impression that everyone is somehow blundering through the sky oblivious to everything & that only pure luck is keeping us alive. Please try to believe that this is not the case.
I hope you see this as an attempt to clarify the actual situation & not an attempt to insult you.
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Crash one, I note that your interpretation of soay's post differs from mine.
I'm not sure how you can claim that radar doesn't miss any - there are plenty of non-transponder aircraft out there. There are also lots of people who forget to switch the damn thing on, even.
I relate it to all sorts of things I've heard around various airfields, posts here (and other aviation bulletin boards) that tell me that, contrary to your post, there ARE a lot of pilots out there blundering around, head down looking at their wonderful GPS that will keep them out of controlled airspace even if they don't bother to subscribe to an update service, who think they don't need to look out of the window because they've got TCAS now, who don't even worry about busting VMC minima even when not IMC rated, ears blasted off by having the iPod plugged into their headset, etc. etc.
You may not - there's plenty who do.
Finally, I draw your attention to the TIS-B NOTAM (link in my first post above:-
(my emphasis).
I'm not sure how you can claim that radar doesn't miss any - there are plenty of non-transponder aircraft out there. There are also lots of people who forget to switch the damn thing on, even.
I relate it to all sorts of things I've heard around various airfields, posts here (and other aviation bulletin boards) that tell me that, contrary to your post, there ARE a lot of pilots out there blundering around, head down looking at their wonderful GPS that will keep them out of controlled airspace even if they don't bother to subscribe to an update service, who think they don't need to look out of the window because they've got TCAS now, who don't even worry about busting VMC minima even when not IMC rated, ears blasted off by having the iPod plugged into their headset, etc. etc.
You may not - there's plenty who do.
Finally, I draw your attention to the TIS-B NOTAM (link in my first post above:-
Pilots flying in visual meteorological conditions (VMC) are reminded that visual contact remains the only means of self separation.
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There have been a number of studies on see and avoid. All have been very clear that it has big limitations. The UK AAIB have made the following statements following a fatal mid air in 07;
• ‘there are limitations in the human visual system that serve to make collision avoidance difficult by visual means alone.’
• ‘small targets may be hidden behind aircraft structure, such as the engine cowlings, canopy arches, wings, or struts, until very late.’
If you want to give yourself a better chance you might want to consider the PCAS systems. At £400 ish you get a lot of help for not much cash.
Rod1
• ‘there are limitations in the human visual system that serve to make collision avoidance difficult by visual means alone.’
• ‘small targets may be hidden behind aircraft structure, such as the engine cowlings, canopy arches, wings, or struts, until very late.’
If you want to give yourself a better chance you might want to consider the PCAS systems. At £400 ish you get a lot of help for not much cash.
Rod1
‘there are limitations in the human visual system that serve to make collision avoidance difficult by visual means alone.’
‘small targets may be hidden behind aircraft structure, such as the engine cowlings, canopy arches, wings, or struts, until very late.’
Basically I am with Captain Stable on this. Do I use radar services? Yes of course but this is additional not instead of maintaining an adequate lookout.
Lookout skills are rarely taught comprehensively other than within the military environment (and I speak as one who was civil trained but has, for a few years, instructed for the military).
When I teach E of C Part 1 and the Airmanship topics I emphasise that lookout is an acquired skill.
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Crash One
Luck is keeping you alive. I have avoided this thread as we had a massive long thread on my very near miss in a twin with a glider in IMC.
I dont intend to start that debate again.
TCAS especially OCAS can give you a false sense of security unless all aircraft are transponding it can lead you to believe there is nothing there when infact there is and the same goes for radar. Radar units do miss aircraft especially non transponding aircraft.
OCAS there is such a mix of everything that you do need to be very careful VMC or IMC. You are relying on the Big sky theory and that can get very small at times.
Pace
You, Captain, seem to be of the impression that everyone is somehow blundering through the sky oblivious to everything & that only pure luck is keeping us alive. Please try to believe that this is not the case.
I hope you see this as an attempt to clarify the actual situation & not an attempt to insult you.
I hope you see this as an attempt to clarify the actual situation & not an attempt to insult you.
I dont intend to start that debate again.
TCAS especially OCAS can give you a false sense of security unless all aircraft are transponding it can lead you to believe there is nothing there when infact there is and the same goes for radar. Radar units do miss aircraft especially non transponding aircraft.
OCAS there is such a mix of everything that you do need to be very careful VMC or IMC. You are relying on the Big sky theory and that can get very small at times.
Pace