Oxford Aviation Academy fatal midair in Arizona

[Halfbaked_Boy]

Just been sent this by somebody I know -

Midair Plane Crash in Arizona Leaves at Least 1 Dead - Local News | News Articles | National News | US News - FOXNews.com

Very early, but does anybody have any more info on this?

[Kempus]

Some more reports

At least 1 killed in small-plane collision near Coolidge

online video - channel 12 news video - arizona republic video - phoenix video

One dead after two planes crash near Coolidge | LOCAL NEWS | Arizona | azfamily.com

Photos - Photo Detail - Phoenix Arizona news, breaking news, local news, weather radar, traffic from ABC15 News | ABC15.com


Yet another crash in "rainbow" valley area! Its getting a bit too busy down there!!

kempus

[mad_jock]

For any parents reading this thread.

The news video showed the OAT aircraft a bit bashed up but in one piece and the news reporter stated that the occupants where both safe.

[stue]

Iv got 994T in my log book, a good ship if I remember right.......?

It is a little busy down in that area though. Very sad to hear about a fatality!

[Skippy129]

There were always alot of near misses down that way especially with people transiting the area unaware of training frequencies or failing to update their positions regularly. But all will come out in the wash! Sad news though

Still wondering which instructor it was. I will have to get on to my contacts out there.

[Otto Throttle]

It was always going to happen. I nearly got mowed down myself by a Gulfstream north of Coolidge some 8 years ago.

[FrankAbagnale]

994T

I have 994T in my logbook too...

[annita]

At the academy people say that the Cessna instructor jumped out at 75 ft to save his life but failed and got killed.

[VC10 Rib22]

Your data from the academy on the Cessna is inaccurate. There were two Chinese students onboard, one in the left seat pilot flying 'under the hood', the other in the right seat non-pilot flying on lookout duty. During the uncontrolled descent to the ground (post-collision) the left seat student was thrown from the aircraft and unsurprisingly received fatal injuries. Amazingly, bearing in mind a large section of the Cessna's starboard wing remained embedded in the Warrior's engine cowling, the other student survived the impact. The Cessna students had left marana to head back to Glendale but took the decision to divert to Coolidge for some unauthorised circuits. After departing Coolidge they flew straight towards the holding stack for Casa Grande, where they paid a terrible price for their earlier diversion. Fate was indeed the hunter!

I remember the airspace around this area to be very busy - Luftwaffe, Lufthansa, Oxford, Pan Am and all the other local FTOs. Throw into that mix the world's largest F16 training fleet - yes, these guys are learning to fly to fly the F16, not so Top Gun now are you Mr PA161? Factors such as non-reporting of position, reporting of position in a completely unintelligible manner or vague manner ("PanAm, two fowsan feet, souf pwactice awea"), a cloud-free sky, made for a situation that could give you a closer shave than Gillette.

I always felt far more comfortable there flying solo than flying 'under the hood'. At least I knew my eyes would be scanning the whole sky regularly, as opposed to having an instructor next to me who I was VERY aware had the dilemma of keeping a safety lookout whilst trying to teach instrument flying to an adequate standard and who may be relying on the 'Big Sky' theory a bit too much for my liking. Despite the many negative points to the blinds used on the Seneca, I felt a whole lot more comfortable flying under them back in the UK, under the watchful eye of a radar controller in controlled airspace. For anyone flying in the Arizona training grounds, remember that it still is Injun territory, only the next arrow hurtling at you at high speed from your 5 o'clock might just be made by Piper. Learn all you can about the operating procedures for the airspace and for all the airports in the area. Always ensure you have a large bottle of water onboard, it may take some time to find you should you have to force land. But most importantly, get the eyes and neck working.

Arizona Flight Training Workgroup | Dedicated to improving pilot judgement and decision-making to reduce accidents, incidents and pilot deviations in Arizona.
Phoenix-Area Practice Areas
http://www.luke.af.mil/shared/media/...070122-076.jpg
Luke Air Force Base - Midair Collision Avoidance
http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/pkg/FR-2009...f/E9-30938.pdf

VC10 Rib22

ps Not a dig at any PanAm student's lack of English, their English was always better than my Chinese. Injun term not meant to offend either.

[Reverserbucket]

VC10 Rib22

There were two Chinese students onboard, one in the left seat pilot flying 'under the hood', the other in the right seat non-pilot flying on lookout duty. During the uncontrolled descent to the ground (post-collision) the left seat student was thrown from the aircraft and unsurprisingly received fatal injuries. Amazingly, bearing in mind a large section of the Cessna's starboard wing remained embedded in the Warrior's engine cowling, the other student survived the impact. The Cessna students had left marana to head back to Glendale but took the decision to divert to Coolidge for some unauthorised circuits. After departing Coolidge they flew straight towards the holding stack for Casa Grande, where they paid a terrible price for their earlier diversion.

I agree that there were two students onboard but where does the rest of your information come from? I certainly don't remember a large section of the starboard wing being embedded in the PA28's cowling. The accident did not occur in the vicinity of the TFD hold.

I'm certain that comments such as

Fate was indeed the hunter!

a situation that could give you a closer shave than Gillette

the next arrow hurtling at you at high speed from your 5 o'clock might just be made by Piper.

although likely amusing to someone with a particularly juvenile sense of humour don't help the very capable and unfortunate instructor onboard '94T that morning sleep any better at night.

And you were a student at Oxford? Probably at RYR now I guess

[VC10 Rib22]

Reverserbucket,

I agree that there were two students onboard but where does the rest of your information come from?

Firstly, thanks for agreeing. Now, there's been an aircraft accident, so where would I get my information from:

(a) Make it up
(b) Ask my milkman
(c) Rely on the amazingly accurate reporting of aircraft accidents normally found in any newspaper
(d) Wait for and read the official narrative of the accident from the National Transportation safety Board

The accident did not occur in the vicinity of the TFD hold.

Where did I say that it did? Perhaps I shouldn't expect others to know or research whether there is more than one hold associated with any particular airfield. Had you clicked on my Phoenix Practice Area link above you would have seen this. For my part I shall be sure to specify the holding pattern in future for those who neither read NTSB reports or click on links provided.

I'm certain that comments such as
Quote:
Fate was indeed the hunter!

Quote:
a situation that could give you a closer shave than Gillette

Quote:
the next arrow hurtling at you at high speed from your 5 o'clock might just be made by Piper.

although likely amusing to someone with a particularly juvenile sense of humour don't help the very capable and unfortunate instructor onboard '94T that morning sleep any better at night.

I'm afraid you have misread my tone, which was intended to be of a solemn nature. I try to limit the use of smilies but in this case pretend there is a at the end of those three lines.

As you deem the instructor to be very capable I am going to take from that that you know him personally. If he is having trouble sleeping at night be sure he seeks assistance from an FAA MD or JAA AME, for fear that any associated tiredness may affect his ability to perform cockpit duties, including lookout, to the required standard - I recommend David Bryman, thoroughly nice chap, authorised by both the FAA and JAA and currently President of the Civil Aviation Medical Association. Otherwise tell him to drink some hot chocolate. (This is for you------>)

Probably at RYR now I guess

Guess all you want. My wife, my lawyer and my God know. You don't need to. For all the many cons associated with Ryanair, if you were given the choice of flying NGs over Europe for Ryanair or claiming benefits, what would you choose?

VC10 Rib22

[hollingworthp]

I DO know the instructor personally (he trained me for 70% of my time with OAA Goodyear) and he was amongst the most capable of the guys at Phoenix.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

If you spend extended time in the world of flying training then eventually someone you know dies in an accident.

Its not a topic that gets much attention on this forum but it ought to. Flying a light aircraft is quite a hazardous past time. Its up there with horse riding and motorbiking. I myself got my first ever flying instructor job filling the shoes of an ex-Tornado Navigator turned Flying Instructor who flew into a hill in North Wales taking two students with him. A colleague I then worked with went on the next year to join OATS and suffered a mid air collision on approach to Kiddlington, thankfully with no trips to the morgue.

In an increasingly safe and protected and risk-free world your basic flying training is likely to be the riskiest thing you ever undertake.

Think on.


WWW

[Reverserbucket]

If I have taken the earlier poster's tone in vain then I apologise but the comments made touched a raw nerve. I have known FI's with young families leave aviation altogether for fear of an untimely encounter with another aircraft. Personally I find the comment in your last post regarding the instructor's "ability to perform cockpit duties, including lookout" to be in bad taste - I do know the guy personally and am certain he takes your implications as a slight at his professionalism.

I was in the crewroom the day AB suffered his close call at EGTK and have lost two instructor friends and colleagues in recent years in training accidents - please show some sensitivity. There by the grace of God....

[mad_jock]

Body count

In a slightly morbid to note, pilots who I personally knew who are no longer with us is up to 3. And strangely enough they have all been the ones that you would least expect/ most capable to have issues in an aircraft.

If you are a pilot you should also have a word with your relatives about what to expect if you have a really bad day at work.

I never again want to be in the position at a remembrance piss up of a member of family expressing heart felt dissatisfaction with an undertaker because his mum couldn't see her son's face for the last time.

Anything over 100knts rapid deceleration and its a bucket and shovel job and the investigators picking bits out of the instrument panel. Watch ER if you want to see the nice side of burns.

As I said morbid but something people seem to want to deny could ever happen.

[Craggenmore]

I have 994T in my log-book back from 06/08/2003.

[wiggy]

WWW

If you spend extended time in the world of flying training then eventually someone you know dies in an accident.

Amen to that, it used to be that anyone who spent anytime in flying at any level knew someone who was killed in an accident; things are much safer these days but the potential is still there, accidents still happen.

mad_jock.

morbid but something people seem to want to deny could ever happen.

Not morbid at all, very good post.

[VC10 Rib22]

Reverserbucket,

Personally I find the comment in your last post regarding the instructor's "ability to perform cockpit duties, including lookout" to be in bad taste - I do know the guy personally and am certain he takes your implications as a slight at his professionalism.

I based this comment on your earlier intimation that the instructor had problems sleeping at night. If this is true, my observation on how this would effect his ability to perform his duties holds true, and I would stand by this to my last breath, but, in the lack of any evidence to the contrary, I took it that the instructor did not have a sleep problem and did carry his duties out to the required standard, and I thought this would have been perfectly clear by my following quote

(This is for you------>)

With his aircraft already established in a designated holding pattern and having right of way in accordance with FAR Part 91 Section 91.113(d), and an aircraft coming at him from below at his 7/8 o'clock, DWW would have been very lucky to have spotted it in sufficient time to avert a collision, so he has no need to worry about any blame on his part for the collision.

From 4500 feet, a standard PA161 would have been able to glide to Coolidge Municipal, but at the 3500 feet where DWW gained control this would have been borderline but certainly Sarita would be very possible. But DWW wasn't flying a standard PA161 post-collision, so nobody can ascertain what the glide performance would be with the increased increased weight and drag. What we can be sure of is that the shock factor and the adrenaline would be fairly prohibitive in allowing the mind to calculate relative bearings, distances and options quickly, at the same time as trying to ascertain structural integrity. Thankfully there were many adequate fields below but this isn't always the case so this incident is a helpful reminder to readers to try and plan flying activities that allow escape options (if possible) and ask where I would land if 'this' happened 'now' when flying. Given the circumstances DWW faced I think he did a great job. Like any professional I'm sure he has thought about things he may have done differently which will benefit him and his students in his career.

I was in the crewroom the day AB suffered his close call at EGTK and have lost two instructor friends and colleagues in recent years in training accidents - please show some sensitivity.

I'm not sure this is addressed to me as I don't believe I have demonstrated insensitivity in any of my comments. As others have mentioned, the flight training industry is potentially very dangerous and not for the faint hearted. I had to shut down my engines at Oxford once because an aircraft crashed less than 500 metres away. I don't think that I was insensitive to want to continue the flight - not possible as ATC closed the airfield - I just think that this was me being professional and very aware of how difficult it could be getting flights at that time. Never-the-less I was still concerned for the people involved and hoped they escaped unharmed - as they did.

Strict regulation, training and modern technology has seen to it that the days of the heroic jet pilot are decades behind us, and from a bravery point of view I admire the GA fraternity far more than the airline fraternity. Statistics show that you are far more likely to be involved in fatal accident (midair or otherwise) in GA than commercial aviation. I know many, many airline pilots who have never set foot in a GA aircraft since the day they passed their IR, and never will again, under the guise of cost or airline specific rules, when in fact it is because they are just not comfortable with the risks involved. That is fair enough, you have to go with your feelings. It is quite funny how so many retiring airline pilots suddenly decide after decades of keeping as far away as possible from GA, to return to it. It is almost like they think, sod it, I've not got much time left in me anyway. Still, GA should be grateful to have them return both for their knowledge pool and because GA needs all the numbers it can get these days. Fly safe!

VC10 Rib22

[korrol]

"Go On - Let's See How Much Guts You've Got"

........That's what my instructor said to me many years ago in my second-ever flying lesson as we approached CWL's runway at a steady 70kt for a landing which I thought he was going to do in a Glamorgan Flying Club Cessna 172.

In effect he was saying to me that the approach was okay and if, I could remember how to flare, then he was going to leave me to it.

I thought at the time it wasn't a matter of my guts - but his. It seemed to me extraordinary that a middle aged, spectacle-wearing, family man (as he was) had the bravery to sit there, hands-off, and let me attempt a landing. I thought at the time he would be even braver if he'd only known how little I knew.

I take my hat off to flying instructors everywhere. They put their lives on the line every day. Yes, of course they can grab the controls, save a student from himself and retrieve the situation - but just to sit there, in that right hand seat, does -undoubtedly - take guts, and a lot more of them than I will ever have.

[mad_jock]

I can assure you we don't put our lives on the line.

Personally I don't think it takes lots of guts more confidence in your own abilitys.

There is not alot a student can do to the machine without going into usual attitudes that an instructor won't be able to sort without much stress. The scaryest thing a student can do is freeze on the controls and lock up. It happens very rarely though.

When I say instructor I mean one with more than 500 hours instructing. You just about have the basics by then over 750 you know what you are doing but usually by then you have got pissed off with the whole of the flight training industry you turn into a bit of a bitter and twisted instructor.