Close Calls
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
Flying high is a good tactic, but it is only of limited use
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You cannot normally fly high in the UK, as Class A forces you down.
If there is a layer of broken cloud, try and get on top because once up there *most* other people will be below it, and certainly all gliders. I came back across Wales a few weeks ago and went at 7500. There was a layer of Bkn at 4000-5000 so at 7.5k we were in the smooth in the sunshine, there was no one else around (saw a few others below the cloud) and no airspace worries. Plenty of holes to get back down through and Cardiff could see us from 100 miles away and quite happily gave us a traffic service.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Niort
Posts: 1,235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Capt Stables remarks about the transponders not being switched on interests me.
It was my understanding mainly from reading the stuff that the MoD issues -
for instance on the 'low flying system'
For example, DASC are able to reassure them that it is an MoD requirement3 that ‘Except for aircraft con ducting authorised operational missions, entry to the UK Low Flying System is prohibited unless aircraft are equipped with a serviceable IFF/SSR transpon der and a Mode 3/A squawk with mode C (where fi tted) is being transmitted’.
On collision warning systems;
Which military aircraft have a CWS fi tted? Most UK military transport/‘wide-bodied’ aircraft have TCAS fi tted as do the Tucanos at Linton-on-Ouse. (see page 44 in this issue). While there are currently no military Fast jets with a CWS, the Hawk 128 should have TCAS fi tted when it comes into service, and there is an ongoing evaluation of a possible CWS for the Tornado GR4. No military helicopters currently have a CWS
On mode S;
The Ministry of Defence has a programme to fit Mode S capable SSR transponders to its military aircraft to help protect freedom of movement and improve interoperability
But if they decide not to switch them on then it makes all of this nothing more than window dressing. Anyone with definitive knowledge of whether aircraft in the 'low flying system' must squawk?
It was my understanding mainly from reading the stuff that the MoD issues -
for instance on the 'low flying system'
For example, DASC are able to reassure them that it is an MoD requirement3 that ‘Except for aircraft con ducting authorised operational missions, entry to the UK Low Flying System is prohibited unless aircraft are equipped with a serviceable IFF/SSR transpon der and a Mode 3/A squawk with mode C (where fi tted) is being transmitted’.
On collision warning systems;
Which military aircraft have a CWS fi tted? Most UK military transport/‘wide-bodied’ aircraft have TCAS fi tted as do the Tucanos at Linton-on-Ouse. (see page 44 in this issue). While there are currently no military Fast jets with a CWS, the Hawk 128 should have TCAS fi tted when it comes into service, and there is an ongoing evaluation of a possible CWS for the Tornado GR4. No military helicopters currently have a CWS
On mode S;
The Ministry of Defence has a programme to fit Mode S capable SSR transponders to its military aircraft to help protect freedom of movement and improve interoperability
But if they decide not to switch them on then it makes all of this nothing more than window dressing. Anyone with definitive knowledge of whether aircraft in the 'low flying system' must squawk?
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Aberdeen, UK
Posts: 526
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Did my first trip across the channel at the weekend (to St Omer and back), and being from lovely class G covered North E Scotland, the amount of traffic in the SE of England was quite a surprise.
Had 2 or 3 moments in the one flight with aircraft on constant bearings which we had to turn and avoid - they either hadn't see us (all lights on/waggling wings but no joy), or weren't going to move. And none of them were talking to who we were.
A high wing cessna which dropped out of the 1500 cloud base in front of us, a Robin on a reciprocal heading 200 ft below, a high wing cessna into South-end who wasn't moving for anyone, an those are just the ones we could see!
And the RT was terrible - Poor London Info controllers having to tell people to stop broadcasting all over each other - one french guy stomped on 5 tx in a row and had a very "pointed" response from London.
We're now seriously considering a XRX, as it wasn't funny after the 2nd or 3rd time - but given the number of "negative transponder" calls to London, who knows!
And it was especially annoying as it was always *us* that had to turn away for an orbit - they just kept plodding on.
Mandatory transponders and mode S suddenly started seeming like a very very good idea!
Had 2 or 3 moments in the one flight with aircraft on constant bearings which we had to turn and avoid - they either hadn't see us (all lights on/waggling wings but no joy), or weren't going to move. And none of them were talking to who we were.
A high wing cessna which dropped out of the 1500 cloud base in front of us, a Robin on a reciprocal heading 200 ft below, a high wing cessna into South-end who wasn't moving for anyone, an those are just the ones we could see!
And the RT was terrible - Poor London Info controllers having to tell people to stop broadcasting all over each other - one french guy stomped on 5 tx in a row and had a very "pointed" response from London.
We're now seriously considering a XRX, as it wasn't funny after the 2nd or 3rd time - but given the number of "negative transponder" calls to London, who knows!
And it was especially annoying as it was always *us* that had to turn away for an orbit - they just kept plodding on.
Mandatory transponders and mode S suddenly started seeming like a very very good idea!
Join Date: Sep 2005
Location: Norfolk UK
Age: 81
Posts: 1,200
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I wonder if pilots following tracks to/from similar waypoints are causing these near misses?
In shipping therer are GPS assisted collisions where ships are heading for same nav point.
Lister
In shipping therer are GPS assisted collisions where ships are heading for same nav point.
Lister
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Niort
Posts: 1,235
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My experience of the SE corner is pretty similar to Slopey's. Most of it I suspect is people using routings which pass over the Manston to Folkstone area. Everytime I flown through there it is busy, similarly around the GA fields and the 'rat runs' between controlled airspace.
Certainly a gadget would help but obviously is not the whole answer. As for everyone having a transponder? Cannot see it every happening - if only for the well rehearsed Mode S arguments.
Even here in the quiet-ish north it is not unusual to find paragliders, hanggliders and weightshift microlights at typical GA altitudes and they outnumber all of the GA fleet.
Certainly a gadget would help but obviously is not the whole answer. As for everyone having a transponder? Cannot see it every happening - if only for the well rehearsed Mode S arguments.
Even here in the quiet-ish north it is not unusual to find paragliders, hanggliders and weightshift microlights at typical GA altitudes and they outnumber all of the GA fleet.
Just as a passing comment; it is my understanding that we don't call "TCAS Climb" (or "TCAS Descent") any more. The call is simply "Resolution Advisory" whichever way you are manoeuvering.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
SoCal App
My close call were all outside class B but withon about 15 miles from the outer 30NM ring. By close call I am talking about misses by less than 100-200 yds. This was on VFR flight surrounding Minneapolis. I find the TIS-B finds plane much earlier than I can visusally see them starting at about 6 NM.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: Minneapolis
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So Cal App
I was outside the classB veil. TIS-B tends to report traffic on the screen about 50 NM out from Minneapolis radar. I was on a common traffic advisory or local airport frequency. On one occassion I managed to talk to the other pilot as he & I reported a position and altitude that were about the same. On one occassion the near miss was a head on, in which with each aircraft trvelling about 150 MPH leaves only about 10 seconds to see and avoid. I didn't see the plane coming on but the TIS-B system alerted me to the position, altitude, and direction. so it allowed me to focus quickly in the right direction. I saw the plane and took immediate evasive action. I'm pretty sure he didn'r see me. Even the guy I was talking to on a 90 collision course didn't see me until I said look straight ahead and up a I had pulled up due to the TIS-B alert. I agree that I need to be continuously looking but it sure is nice to be alerted to planes I may miss. Thanks for all the comments. I was off line getting my IFR rating. Yea!
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Who can say?
Posts: 1,700
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
If you had to take immediate evasive action when seeing the aircraft, TIS-B is not nearly as effective or useful as it should be. Furthermore, it appears likely that your lookout was not nearly as good as it should have been. I think my earlier comments are entirely vindicated.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Better than colliding and bodies falling from the sky though.
Human Factors and Performance are the limiting factors in aviation. "What is that over there, is it a plane or a window reflecting the sun 20 miles away? I can't quite make out which way it is going, oh shi............." 300 mph closing speed is 5 miles per minute. Maybe easy to see another aeroplane at 1 mile, but this is 12 seconds before impact at those speeds.
Easy to criticise someone else in hindsight sat in front a computer screen.
I've had several "traffic alerts" in my time, one was hidden behind the wing of our Cessna, the other was climing underneath us in a Cessna and we were descending into an airport in a low wing. How is one meant to see those without xray vision?
Human Factors and Performance are the limiting factors in aviation. "What is that over there, is it a plane or a window reflecting the sun 20 miles away? I can't quite make out which way it is going, oh shi............." 300 mph closing speed is 5 miles per minute. Maybe easy to see another aeroplane at 1 mile, but this is 12 seconds before impact at those speeds.
Easy to criticise someone else in hindsight sat in front a computer screen.
I've had several "traffic alerts" in my time, one was hidden behind the wing of our Cessna, the other was climing underneath us in a Cessna and we were descending into an airport in a low wing. How is one meant to see those without xray vision?
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Who can say?
Posts: 1,700
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
How is one meant to see those without xray vision?
Above all, by not relying on any TCAS system to give you warning. It won't if the other aircraft is not squawking, because it's not switched on, or the aircraft is not transponder-equipped. The only way is to keep looking out, and being aware of human physiology as regards vision, and ensuring your lookout is good technique.
Any time you get lazy and start relying on equipment in the aircraft you have surrendered control of your life. Sorry, but I like to be in control of my own destiny, and have no intention of being another mid-air statistic because I didn't look out.
You do as you wish, but I wouldn't like to be related to anyone who happens to get in your way.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
By improving your lookout technique, by using situational awareness, by being aware of where aircraft may be hiding, by manoeuvring to take a look at all those "hidden" areas.
So you are on an IFR flight plan in VMC, you have been given a descent and are under radar control. You are complying with ATC instructions, looking out, scanning with two sets of eyes onboard, there is nothing to see unless you start Lazy-8ing your way around the sky (which might p*ss off the controller). Suddenly "traffic alert, pop up traffic right below you, climbing, stop descent now, turn right 270 expedite"........
Now imagine the same scenario (which happened to me) with TIS onboard. You'd get a traffic alert showing the aircraft position on the screen at the same time as the controller saw it, adding an extra level of information. Even without the controller, disaster could be averted.
Now imagine it with no "technology" to help....
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Who can say?
Posts: 1,700
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Your scenario is a nonsense.
We're talking about VFR, in uncontrolled airspace.
You're talking about controlled arspace - why would there suddenly be popup traffic in controlled airspace? Please get a grip.
And no, it's not easy. It's called airmanship. You have to work at it. Millions of pilots do. Why can't you?
We're talking about VFR, in uncontrolled airspace.
You're talking about controlled arspace - why would there suddenly be popup traffic in controlled airspace? Please get a grip.
And no, it's not easy. It's called airmanship. You have to work at it. Millions of pilots do. Why can't you?
In answer to Captain Stable/gasax, on military aircraft squawking at low level, speaking as a Mil pilot.
FJ aircraft usually have their squawk and mode C verified upon departure from the Aerodrome. Usually on the departures frequency. On entering low level (i,e, below 2000ft MSD for FJ), all aircraft squawk a specific "low level" squawk, unless participating in a particular excercise, where another squawk may be allocated. In short, all low level military FJ aircraft squawk.
Hope that clarifies things!
Cheers.
FJ aircraft usually have their squawk and mode C verified upon departure from the Aerodrome. Usually on the departures frequency. On entering low level (i,e, below 2000ft MSD for FJ), all aircraft squawk a specific "low level" squawk, unless participating in a particular excercise, where another squawk may be allocated. In short, all low level military FJ aircraft squawk.
Hope that clarifies things!
Cheers.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
No it is not nonsense,it happened to me!!!
VFR and IFR have nothing to do with it.
Pop up traffic happened because the climbing aircraft came out of a radar shadow. Just happened to have been blocked from our visual iew due to aircaft structure.
I know you profess to be a very experienced pilot (as per your previous posts) and have lots of experience flying with TCAS, and other technology, but you do show a complete lack of knowledge on some fronts.......Makes one wonder if Walter Mitty has entered the room....
VFR and IFR have nothing to do with it.
Pop up traffic happened because the climbing aircraft came out of a radar shadow. Just happened to have been blocked from our visual iew due to aircaft structure.
I know you profess to be a very experienced pilot (as per your previous posts) and have lots of experience flying with TCAS, and other technology, but you do show a complete lack of knowledge on some fronts.......Makes one wonder if Walter Mitty has entered the room....
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Who can say?
Posts: 1,700
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
englishal, VFR and IFR and the difference between them have evertyhing to do with it, particularly if you are under active radar control within controlled airspace. As you were under active radar control (as I read your post), and you got avoidance advice from the controller, what's your problem? Why are you so averse to admitting that there is a danger of becoming complacent with loads of "kit" on board?
Prof Plum, thanks for your input. I know what is supposed to happen. Believe me, it doesn't always happen that way.
SoCal, the rules are effectively the same here for Class E Airspace - but there isn't much of it!
Prof Plum, thanks for your input. I know what is supposed to happen. Believe me, it doesn't always happen that way.
SoCal, the rules are effectively the same here for Class E Airspace - but there isn't much of it!
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It is quite possible to be flying IFR under a radar service OCAS infact I have done so in the high teens down the east side of the UK in business jets and turboprops from Newcastle to the London area.
The same goes on areas to the west. As such pop up traffic is a possibility but you are not going to get much popping up at FL180
certainly not the 150s and usual spam cans.
hence flying high OCAS has to reduce collision risk but at some point you have to come down and then you are mixing it with every type of flying machine available
Anything which will make you feel safe such as TCAS or even a shute system on a cirrus will make you feel complacent but OCAS BEWARE! with TCAS
Had the rude awakening of counting from the ground 11 hangliders floating around the cloudbases in wales at about 2500 feet while driving my car.
Three disappeared for short spells into the clouds which is really a scary thought
Pace
The same goes on areas to the west. As such pop up traffic is a possibility but you are not going to get much popping up at FL180
certainly not the 150s and usual spam cans.hence flying high OCAS has to reduce collision risk but at some point you have to come down and then you are mixing it with every type of flying machine available
Anything which will make you feel safe such as TCAS or even a shute system on a cirrus will make you feel complacent but OCAS BEWARE! with TCAS
Had the rude awakening of counting from the ground 11 hangliders floating around the cloudbases in wales at about 2500 feet while driving my car.
Three disappeared for short spells into the clouds which is really a scary thought
Pace
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
As you were under active radar control (as I read your post), and you got avoidance advice from the controller, what's your problem? Why are you so averse to admitting that there is a danger of becoming complacent with loads of "kit" on board?
I'm not complacent, believe me! A mid air is my biggest fear. I was simply pointing out the failures of "see and avoid" - Sometimes you "just can't see them". No doubt with a bit of extra kit onboard one has a better chance of "seeing them" , as with having a radar service, before they become part of your airframe. Why don't you seem to get it, and seem to think that all people fly around with their heads glued to the screens?! I use the screens / radar service to complement a god lookout, but you cannot possibly say that a good lookout is infallible either. It is if you SEE them but for some reason people may "just not see them". If it were then all the recent collisions I can remember would never have happened.