Gusty conditions on approach
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Gusty conditions on approach
Approach/landing speed in gusty conditions.
I have been flying the L4-Cub (65hp) in some quite gusty conditions recently, without incident and sticking to the speeds on the POH, which I understand allows for gusty conditions.
Approach speed 55mph, over the threshold 50mph, stall 35-38mph depending on load.
Some people say add 30% to approach speed, other experienced pilots say definitely not.
Adding 30% to approach is going to give me over 70 mph, which is nearly flat out!
Others say add half the gust speed,although how you judge this from a windsock on an unmanned strip I don't know,anyway say it was headwind 15mph gusting 30, adding half the gust would add over 7 mph to approach.
I would appreciate some thought from experienced pilots flying this sort of aircraft.
Lister
I tried search with a lot of results but no real answer.
I have been flying the L4-Cub (65hp) in some quite gusty conditions recently, without incident and sticking to the speeds on the POH, which I understand allows for gusty conditions.
Approach speed 55mph, over the threshold 50mph, stall 35-38mph depending on load.
Some people say add 30% to approach speed, other experienced pilots say definitely not.
Adding 30% to approach is going to give me over 70 mph, which is nearly flat out!
Others say add half the gust speed,although how you judge this from a windsock on an unmanned strip I don't know,anyway say it was headwind 15mph gusting 30, adding half the gust would add over 7 mph to approach.
I would appreciate some thought from experienced pilots flying this sort of aircraft.
Lister
I tried search with a lot of results but no real answer.
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A "non gusty" approach is normally at 1.3 times stall - which would be 1.3 X 38 in the figures you gave - say 50 mph (assuming the 38 mph is in landing config)
With gusting I would add 5 knots (6 mph) to that (to be exact you need to know the headwind component of the gusts and apply a little formula to calculate the required "overspeed") but 6 mph should be OK for gusts of up to 10 - 12 knots over the steady headwind component.
With gusting I would add 5 knots (6 mph) to that (to be exact you need to know the headwind component of the gusts and apply a little formula to calculate the required "overspeed") but 6 mph should be OK for gusts of up to 10 - 12 knots over the steady headwind component.
Last edited by Choxolate; 2nd Sep 2009 at 15:33. Reason: Change knots to mph and correct spelling mistakes
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Hi Lister
+5Kts for the wife and kids, make sure you have enough room to land down the strip - with increased control comes increased penetration - especially an issue coming in from the North End.
cheers
Arc
+5Kts for the wife and kids, make sure you have enough room to land down the strip - with increased control comes increased penetration - especially an issue coming in from the North End.
cheers
Arc
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Lister
It is not just the suface wind gusts which are relevant it is also the approach wind gusts which have to be taken into consideration.
On your approach where the winds may be higher keep an eye on the IAS and the + AND - on your ref speed.
It maybe on the approach that you need to keep a much higher speed reducing towards the threshold as the winds reduce.
To fly down an approach at 1.3 times your stall speed plus half your gust speed maybe asking for trouble. On gusty days with windshear dont presume you are safe at 3 miles out using those figures.
As for landing distance remember its your touchdown speed which is relevant so whether the wind is down the runway or 90 degrees across is an important factor.
In those conditions also dont hold off but get used to putting it down on landing.
I am not a taildragger pilot so the actual touchdown in those conditions maybe better advised by an experienced taildragger pilot.
Pace
It is not just the suface wind gusts which are relevant it is also the approach wind gusts which have to be taken into consideration.
On your approach where the winds may be higher keep an eye on the IAS and the + AND - on your ref speed.
It maybe on the approach that you need to keep a much higher speed reducing towards the threshold as the winds reduce.
To fly down an approach at 1.3 times your stall speed plus half your gust speed maybe asking for trouble. On gusty days with windshear dont presume you are safe at 3 miles out using those figures.
As for landing distance remember its your touchdown speed which is relevant so whether the wind is down the runway or 90 degrees across is an important factor.
In those conditions also dont hold off but get used to putting it down on landing.
I am not a taildragger pilot so the actual touchdown in those conditions maybe better advised by an experienced taildragger pilot.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 2nd Sep 2009 at 16:49.
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Thanks Arclite,you know this Cub very well
Sorry mate,it's yours again if ever I can't fly it.
5mph sounds about right,any more and I'll be through the hangars or Bob's house.
I'm OK on cross winds,but will not attempt gusty crosswinds where the gust component is much more than the steady airstream limit for the aircraft I'm flying.
For those not conversant,the Cub has no special landing configuration,as it has no flaps,retractable,or anything much else for that matter
(when I had a glider lesson locally the instructor reckoned I must be very used to all the instruments,I told him the glider had about twice as many as the Cub!)
Pace,thank you, I'm aware that the wind speed increases and changes direction with height,it's what happens nearer the ground that concerns me,especially as both approaches are over obstructions,such as trees,houses and hangars,and can be quite turbulent in strong winds.
I do keep an eye on the IAS until over the threshold,then I'm mostly looking out and landing
Lister
Sorry mate,it's yours again if ever I can't fly it.
5mph sounds about right,any more and I'll be through the hangars or Bob's house.
I'm OK on cross winds,but will not attempt gusty crosswinds where the gust component is much more than the steady airstream limit for the aircraft I'm flying.
For those not conversant,the Cub has no special landing configuration,as it has no flaps,retractable,or anything much else for that matter
(when I had a glider lesson locally the instructor reckoned I must be very used to all the instruments,I told him the glider had about twice as many as the Cub!)
Pace,thank you, I'm aware that the wind speed increases and changes direction with height,it's what happens nearer the ground that concerns me,especially as both approaches are over obstructions,such as trees,houses and hangars,and can be quite turbulent in strong winds.
I do keep an eye on the IAS until over the threshold,then I'm mostly looking out and landing
Lister
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Pace,thank you, I'm aware that the wind speed increases and changes direction with height
Thought you were aware but used this thread to highlight flying in gusty, windshear conditions. I have flown with pilots who use the surface wind gust speeds for their approach speed from maybe 2500 feet and 6 miles out with ASI fluctuations of 10-15 kts in up and down air currents. SCARY.
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Lister, it's a long time since I flew a taildragger, and mostly it was rather heavier ones than your Cub.
Choxolate gives some good numbers. To add a little to that, recheck your POH. It should tell you fairly explicitly the limits for the gusts allowed for. Beyond that, I would (personally) increase my IAS by all the increase in gust factor.
Say the POH allows for gusts up to 15 kts. If the wind is gusting 20 kts, I would add a further 5 kts on top of what you've already added.
Choxolate gives some good numbers. To add a little to that, recheck your POH. It should tell you fairly explicitly the limits for the gusts allowed for. Beyond that, I would (personally) increase my IAS by all the increase in gust factor.
Say the POH allows for gusts up to 15 kts. If the wind is gusting 20 kts, I would add a further 5 kts on top of what you've already added.
All this 'add 5 knots for the wife and kids' and 'add 1/3 gust' is utterly irrelevant in a light aircraft.
The 'gust factor' addition is only relevant to large aircraft (such as airliners) with high inertia which do not react to gusts as quickly as light, low inertia aircraft such as your Cub.
If you increase your approach speed as some have, quite wrongly, suggested, it will make control in the flare more difficult as you will be significantly out of trim before landing.
THE ONLY SPEEDS TO USE ARE THOSE IN THE POH!!
Some years ago, the club where I flew used a 'threshold' speed of 65 KIAS for the PA28 Warrior and insisted on an extra 5 knots with 3 or more PoB, PLUS 1/3 of the W/V if above 15 knots. So with a fresh 21 knot wind and 3 on board, people were using 77 KIAS as the 'threshold speed' and adding a further 10 knots for the approach - approaching as 87 KIAS! All this meant was that the aircraft would bounce all over the place, then, in the flare some 30 knots above the touchdown speed, they couldn't maintain finesse of control and would either thump it down on the nosewheel or land in an uncontrolled manner after ballooning.
Research showed that the approach speed is 63 KIAS at max AUW - we used 65 simply because it was easier to keep the AI needle midway between the 60 and 70 marks. Thanks to the efforts of the chaps who now run OnTrack Aviation, we rewrote the checklist deleting any reference to 'threshold' or 'reference' speeds, deleting any 'add 5 knots' or 'add 1/3 of the wind' nonsense - and never had another damaged nosewheel or heavy landing ever again.
This is even more vital in a taildragger; you do not want to be waffling about well above touchdown speed near the ground whilst the IAS decays and the aircraft goes out of trim. Just stick to the POH values and don't listen to ex-airliner drivers who import irrelevant ideas into the light aircraft world. Scan touch down point - speed - touchdown point - speed continuously during the approach and if the speed is incorrect, make a small power corrective adjustment whilst maintaining the selected touchdown point.
The 'gust factor' addition is only relevant to large aircraft (such as airliners) with high inertia which do not react to gusts as quickly as light, low inertia aircraft such as your Cub.
If you increase your approach speed as some have, quite wrongly, suggested, it will make control in the flare more difficult as you will be significantly out of trim before landing.
THE ONLY SPEEDS TO USE ARE THOSE IN THE POH!!
Some years ago, the club where I flew used a 'threshold' speed of 65 KIAS for the PA28 Warrior and insisted on an extra 5 knots with 3 or more PoB, PLUS 1/3 of the W/V if above 15 knots. So with a fresh 21 knot wind and 3 on board, people were using 77 KIAS as the 'threshold speed' and adding a further 10 knots for the approach - approaching as 87 KIAS! All this meant was that the aircraft would bounce all over the place, then, in the flare some 30 knots above the touchdown speed, they couldn't maintain finesse of control and would either thump it down on the nosewheel or land in an uncontrolled manner after ballooning.
Research showed that the approach speed is 63 KIAS at max AUW - we used 65 simply because it was easier to keep the AI needle midway between the 60 and 70 marks. Thanks to the efforts of the chaps who now run OnTrack Aviation, we rewrote the checklist deleting any reference to 'threshold' or 'reference' speeds, deleting any 'add 5 knots' or 'add 1/3 of the wind' nonsense - and never had another damaged nosewheel or heavy landing ever again.
This is even more vital in a taildragger; you do not want to be waffling about well above touchdown speed near the ground whilst the IAS decays and the aircraft goes out of trim. Just stick to the POH values and don't listen to ex-airliner drivers who import irrelevant ideas into the light aircraft world. Scan touch down point - speed - touchdown point - speed continuously during the approach and if the speed is incorrect, make a small power corrective adjustment whilst maintaining the selected touchdown point.
Hi there
I fly a 150 cub, which is a lot heavier, also three axis microlights which come in a bit lighter, so my opinion may have some small value. In the cub I approach in still air at 45 knots, 40 with a trickle of power for short field, but my cub has great big flaps that go down to sixty degrees. Flaps up I use 50 knots. Up to five knots on the ground I don't add anything to that. Then I add half the steady wind plus all of the gusts, so if there was a fifteen knot wind gusting twenty that would be half of fifteen plus all of the five knot diference, less the five knots that I reckon is already accounted for, which is seven knots after I have done the sums. So five knots without the maths sounds about right, a trickle more if it's really rough.
The POH is sodall use btw. It might be relevant to the aircraft as built in 1953, but as it now has different wings and a different engine it doesn't really apply any more. Beagle has a point about low inertia aircraft, but remember the speed can also decrease very rapidly in a shear or downgust, and a small increment of extra speed is handy to allow the pilot's reaction time to be less than instantaneous. In a gusting crosswind I use a wing down tail up landing with half flap, which seems to give good aileron reponse and still quite a lot of extra drag to shorten the run. It's a lot easier than trying to three point it while kicking off the drift and gives good rudder control through more of the rollout if the tail is up. Like you I fly without the dubious benefit of ATC, so have to judge from the windsock. I reckon if it is shredding itself to bits there is probably too much wind of any sort I do have the pleasure of a huge grass runway 80m wide and 700m long, a fair bit of curlover on approach on 05 in a brisk wind however. How small is your strip?
Oh, and my approach speed in the microlight (skyranger nosedragger) is the same as for the cub, but it bleeds off a lot quicker in the hold-off.
I fly a 150 cub, which is a lot heavier, also three axis microlights which come in a bit lighter, so my opinion may have some small value. In the cub I approach in still air at 45 knots, 40 with a trickle of power for short field, but my cub has great big flaps that go down to sixty degrees. Flaps up I use 50 knots. Up to five knots on the ground I don't add anything to that. Then I add half the steady wind plus all of the gusts, so if there was a fifteen knot wind gusting twenty that would be half of fifteen plus all of the five knot diference, less the five knots that I reckon is already accounted for, which is seven knots after I have done the sums. So five knots without the maths sounds about right, a trickle more if it's really rough.
The POH is sodall use btw. It might be relevant to the aircraft as built in 1953, but as it now has different wings and a different engine it doesn't really apply any more. Beagle has a point about low inertia aircraft, but remember the speed can also decrease very rapidly in a shear or downgust, and a small increment of extra speed is handy to allow the pilot's reaction time to be less than instantaneous. In a gusting crosswind I use a wing down tail up landing with half flap, which seems to give good aileron reponse and still quite a lot of extra drag to shorten the run. It's a lot easier than trying to three point it while kicking off the drift and gives good rudder control through more of the rollout if the tail is up. Like you I fly without the dubious benefit of ATC, so have to judge from the windsock. I reckon if it is shredding itself to bits there is probably too much wind of any sort I do have the pleasure of a huge grass runway 80m wide and 700m long, a fair bit of curlover on approach on 05 in a brisk wind however. How small is your strip?Oh, and my approach speed in the microlight (skyranger nosedragger) is the same as for the cub, but it bleeds off a lot quicker in the hold-off.
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BEagle-Thank you
That is exactly what I have been doing,looking at AIS,strip,AIS strip, and it has worked well in quite strong gusty conditions,and of course I use the same when it is smooth.
The reason I asked the question is that I've recently been reading some handling stuff and wondered if I was doing it OK.
When I was learning (still am,very much) my CFI was a very experienced pilot and I'm sure he never mentioned all this about increasing airspeed in rough conditions.
Lister
The reason I asked the question is that I've recently been reading some handling stuff and wondered if I was doing it OK.
When I was learning (still am,very much
) my CFI was a very experienced pilot and I'm sure he never mentioned all this about increasing airspeed in rough conditions.Lister
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we rewrote the checklist deleting any reference to 'threshold' or 'reference' speeds, deleting any 'add 5 knots' or 'add 1/3 of the wind' nonsense - and never had another damaged nosewheel or heavy landing ever again.
I am Gobsmacked I hope you also wrote "not to be flown in windy condtions", using that checklist.
What relevance does your approach speed have to your touchdown speed anyway?
Why if you are carrying plus 30 kts above your ref speed on approach does that mean you are doing so at the threshold?
The 'gust factor' addition is only relevant to large aircraft (such as airliners) with high inertia which do not react to gusts as quickly as light, low inertia aircraft such as your Cub.
Pace
Last edited by Pace; 3rd Sep 2009 at 07:32.
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piper C
Runway grass 600 metres long,hangars one end,ditch other end,also not very wide but not sure of exact figure,crop/hedge one side,crops only other side.
Lister
Lister
Firstly, if the approach speed is way too high, the rate of decay even at idle power will mean that the average pilot won't be able to control the aircraft with sufficient finesse during the flare. The aircraft will float and wander in an uncontrolled manner.
Ignore airliner-driver rubbish about increasing approach speed in light aircraft in gusty conditions, Lister, to my mind it's clear that you're flying the aircraft in a sound, safe manner and that your old CFI's experience and wisdom was 100% correct.
Ignore airliner-driver rubbish about increasing approach speed in light aircraft in gusty conditions, Lister, to my mind it's clear that you're flying the aircraft in a sound, safe manner and that your old CFI's experience and wisdom was 100% correct.
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I've a reasonable amount of experience in light taildraggers (350 odd hrs). Adding the gust speed and various increments of 5 knots concerns me somewhat.
A number of the aircraft I've flown have flap limiting speeds which are well below the likely end number resulting from this arithmetic, add in real gustiness and damage is a real possibility.
In an L4/J3 this is not a concern, but carrying too much energy into ground effect can be. Yes I do add some speed when it gets gusty (not when it is windy unless it is a strong crosswind) 5 knots or so will allow you a little margin when you fly into the 'hole' behind the gust front.
A light aircraft like a L4 will not fall out of the sky when the apparent wind drops, the 5 knots is plenty to give you that bit more energy to fly through. (different if you fly into an area of curl over turbulence - only ground effect will save you there).
Aim for a wheeler landing and once the wheels touch gently hold them on. If the wind is gusting across this is your last opportunity to see if it is sensible to land (yes I know you're on the ground - but you still have enough energy to open the throttle and just lift off). If you can keep straight without using the brakes it is generally safe enough to close the throttle and commit to 'landing'. Keep the tail up and be ready with the brakes. As the tail falls, you will probably need the brakes (the rudder's effectiveness reduces as the speed falls, when you can no longer hold the tail up, the rudder will be equally ineffective so this movewment is a good signal) and one good brake application is generally enough. If you arrive with more speed then you can become very dependent on the brakes - not a good idea in any taidragger let alone with a Cub's bladders.
Then you just have the challenge of taxiing to where ever you need to go - which may be more difficult!
I have a vague recollection that 'Stick and Rudder' has some very good illustrations and descriptions.
A number of the aircraft I've flown have flap limiting speeds which are well below the likely end number resulting from this arithmetic, add in real gustiness and damage is a real possibility.
In an L4/J3 this is not a concern, but carrying too much energy into ground effect can be. Yes I do add some speed when it gets gusty (not when it is windy unless it is a strong crosswind) 5 knots or so will allow you a little margin when you fly into the 'hole' behind the gust front.
A light aircraft like a L4 will not fall out of the sky when the apparent wind drops, the 5 knots is plenty to give you that bit more energy to fly through. (different if you fly into an area of curl over turbulence - only ground effect will save you there).
Aim for a wheeler landing and once the wheels touch gently hold them on. If the wind is gusting across this is your last opportunity to see if it is sensible to land (yes I know you're on the ground - but you still have enough energy to open the throttle and just lift off). If you can keep straight without using the brakes it is generally safe enough to close the throttle and commit to 'landing'. Keep the tail up and be ready with the brakes. As the tail falls, you will probably need the brakes (the rudder's effectiveness reduces as the speed falls, when you can no longer hold the tail up, the rudder will be equally ineffective so this movewment is a good signal) and one good brake application is generally enough. If you arrive with more speed then you can become very dependent on the brakes - not a good idea in any taidragger let alone with a Cub's bladders.
Then you just have the challenge of taxiing to where ever you need to go - which may be more difficult!
I have a vague recollection that 'Stick and Rudder' has some very good illustrations and descriptions.
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5 knots or so will allow you a little margin when you fly into the 'hole' behind the gust front
Gasax I am not a taildragger pilot but apart from the differences in placing the aircraft on the ground fail to understand some of tnhe reasoning placed in this thread.
I can only presume that pilots of light taildraggers only fly in mild wind and gust conditions. there is nothing wrong with that as flying for pleasure doesnt mean going off in heavy wind conditions.
There are pilots who fly for pleasure and pilots who must. There is a big difference between flying in winds of 10 kts gusting 15/20 kts where you can add a ballpark figure of 5 kts and flying in winds of 25kts gusting 50 kts or greater and dealing with the windshear in those situations.
I would love to hear from a taildragger pilot who must. A heavier taildragger like a DC3 in heavy winds?
Beagle mentions large aircraft and inertia. true as are jets engines spooling time and the need to pre judge thrust increases.
But a large ship ploughs through waves. A small boat rides with every ripple
Low powered aircraft can be thrown to the ground by wake turbulence taking off behind a heavy. Light aircraft can easely hit sinking air and are unable to climb out. So light aircraft are very much at the mercy of windshear and gusts.
Flying from the lightest to heavier aircraft is all about energy management from the aircraft engines to the airframe.
Fly close to the stall and hit a severe downdraft and you will end up stalling or in the trees.
1.3 times the stall plus half the gust factor is a good rule of thumb for the threshhold speed and higher on the approach. Speed is your saviour anything less and you are in the lap of the Gods.
Pace
I hope your experience with the dentist is as good as mine was on Tuesday, Lister! I hadn't seen a civilian dentist for over 40 years - and had never ever had any form of anaesthetic for a filling. The dentist was superb and I never felt a thing!
Pace, the issue is gust response and has nothing to do with engine response time. If Lister flies the way he's described, he will spot any wind shear immediately it occurs and will be able to correct instinctively - that's one of the many benefits of the point-and-power approach technique. Don't worry about the cause - just treat the effect!
25 gusting 50? No thanks! 20 gusting 30 - yes.
Pace, the issue is gust response and has nothing to do with engine response time. If Lister flies the way he's described, he will spot any wind shear immediately it occurs and will be able to correct instinctively - that's one of the many benefits of the point-and-power approach technique. Don't worry about the cause - just treat the effect!
25 gusting 50? No thanks! 20 gusting 30 - yes.
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Lister,
I've checked, the Cub's free today so if you're back from the dentist it would be a good afternoon to go and try out some of the advice.
NORWICH AIRPORT EGSH 031100Z 0312/0321 25020G30KT 9999 SCT025 TEMPO 0312/0317 26025G40KT
Legal
I've checked, the Cub's free today so if you're back from the dentist it would be a good afternoon to go and try out some of the advice.
NORWICH AIRPORT EGSH 031100Z 0312/0321 25020G30KT 9999 SCT025 TEMPO 0312/0317 26025G40KT
Legal
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Legal,do you fancy a spin this afternoon,the Cub is free?
The last time I flew the Cub on 23rd September the gusts were up to 30mph at Norwich,but straight down our N-S strip and I had no problem.
I had hoped to take the Cub to a local private airfield in the afternoon for a classic car rally,but the wind was straight across,so I took my old 1936 Riley Special instead
When I got there it was an MG car club meeting and there were some USAF personnel and pilots present with their cars.
I asked a C130 pilot what their cross wind limit was, he grinned and said,
"This is about it, depending on load"
He was riding a Harley,didn't ask crosswind for that
Later that day it died a bit, but still gusting well over 20mph and a P51 Mustang that lives there landed with two up,full fuel and luggage.
It really was a very skillful piece of flying.
Due to the conditions the other Mustang that lives at the field put down at Tibbenham where they have a runway for every occassion
I arrived there next day to fly in a friends Condor as the Mustang took off,what a fantastic sound.
Lister
?The last time I flew the Cub on 23rd September the gusts were up to 30mph at Norwich,but straight down our N-S strip and I had no problem.
I had hoped to take the Cub to a local private airfield in the afternoon for a classic car rally,but the wind was straight across,so I took my old 1936 Riley Special instead
When I got there it was an MG car club meeting and there were some USAF personnel and pilots present with their cars.
I asked a C130 pilot what their cross wind limit was, he grinned and said,
"This is about it, depending on load"
He was riding a Harley,didn't ask crosswind for that
Later that day it died a bit, but still gusting well over 20mph and a P51 Mustang that lives there landed with two up,full fuel and luggage.
It really was a very skillful piece of flying.
Due to the conditions the other Mustang that lives at the field put down at Tibbenham where they have a runway for every occassion
I arrived there next day to fly in a friends Condor as the Mustang took off,what a fantastic sound.
Lister
Last edited by Lister Noble; 3rd Sep 2009 at 13:07.
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Pace, the issue is gust response and has nothing to do with engine response time. If Lister flies the way he's described, he will spot any wind shear immediately it occurs and will be able to correct instinctively - that's one of the many benefits of the point-and-power approach technique. Don't worry about the cause - just treat the effect!
Glad your experience with the dentist was good just had implant work done with a sinus lift advice to others dont go implant work unless your into serious pain and a serious knock on the bank balance
Have flown a citation into Gatwick and Dundee with 60 kts gusts and windshear to give you the worst blow job you will ever have
and Gatwick at night with the ASI jumping up and down 25 kts. But no intention of fighting you all to their own as they say Pace