Dilemma!!

[MichaelJP59]

Just to add a thought to the others as I've run my own business for 20+ years, I fully support what you're doing, the only question mark for me would be the academic course. I'd have thought you could learn what you need to know in a few weeks of directed self-study and from then on practical experience is the best way.

Good luck though; as you already know, it's far better than working for someone else!

[maxialphas]

Hi,

Your probably right i could learn in a few weeks self study but i think your overlooking the reason behind me going to university.

I get a degree at the end of it, gain valuable skills i dont have currently, get to start a business with no risk (i dont need to take any wage at all due to my student loan paying my way), student loan is an excellent rate for a loan and the banks just arent lending at the moment anyway and i have all this pressure free for 3yrs

If it takes me 2yrs to get my licence, buy a microlight, get my fi rating and get an airfield that will let me rent a unit (found 2 already for a very good price) thats still 1 year i can run it with very little outgoings.

I think its the best idea , and yes i have decided im going to run a microlight school!

[gasax]

I've reached 'that' age. I am well paid and can afford all sorts of toys. I love sailing so I think becoming a sailing instructor would be very fulfilling. Ditto I love flying and becoming an instructor would also be very fulfilling.

Of course neither really pay a living wage and all my toys would probably have to go - including my plane, two boats and my toy car. Perhaps I should also go to university to get a degree in astro-physics, with a cheap loan and whilst I'm there I would love to develop my photographic skills and specialise in nude super models?

Do you think I should throw everything up and pursue my dream? Please be gentle and don't wake me from my dream..................

[maxialphas]

gasax,

Would you like to tell me the point in your reply if all it was to do was take the piss out of someone who actually wants to live his dream?

Some people just like to mock people who can get off their arse and make it happen.

Ben

[vkw91]

I agree with Ben.

gasax, it does seem a little uncalled for.

[gasax]

Get a life maxiphas!

If you think you should live your life according to the replies on an anonymous bulletin board you need a very stiff reality check!

Either you put your heart and soul into what you are doing - or if there is any challenge in it you will fail. Yes, that is not very 'touchy feely' but unfortunately that is how the world works.

Obviously your 'heart and soul' appears to be in living off a cheap loan and having some fun. It will probably work - if you can get a university place - which presently may take a little more effort tan in the past.

But apart from occuping some bandwidth has your posting in any way altered your thinking? Guaranteed not to I would guess.

I prefer Luke Rheinhart's approach to yours - there is no direction to yours.

[maxialphas]

Get a life maxiphas!

If you think you should live your life according to the replies on an anonymous bulletin board you need a very stiff reality check!

Either you put your heart and soul into what you are doing - or if there is any challenge in it you will fail. Yes, that is not very 'touchy feely' but unfortunately that is how the world works.

I know how the world works thanks.
Obviously your 'heart and soul' appears to be in living off a cheap loan and having some fun. It will probably work - if you can get a university place - which presently may take a little more effort tan in the past.

Your very judgemental. I pay it back so whats the difference? I already got a place thanks. See my entrepenerial spirit made sure of that!

But apart from occuping some bandwidth has your posting in any way altered your thinking? Guaranteed not to I would guess.

I prefer Luke Rheinhart's approach to yours - there is no direction to yours.

Go and get a life yourself. You seem to me to be a boring old fart who hates the thought of doing something you dont have the intelligence or balls to do.

Bye x

[Justiciar]

Some people just like to mock people who can get off their arse and make it happen.

Unfortunately most people fall on their arse at some point and often the higher they go with their ill considered climb the further and harder they fall.

I said earlier that you had already made up your mind. Your last response makes me wonder why you bothered to ask the question in the first place. You have clearly been given some answers you dont like. That last reply also begs the question as to whether you have the right mental attitude to navigate yourself through some really challenging times, both financial and personal.

[Supersport]

Maxialphas - remember;

Those that can - DO
Those that can't - PREACH

Don't rise to the bait on here mate! The plethora of armchair know it alls on here will always try and shoot you down! You've made up your mind, JFDI!

[maxialphas]

Hi again Supersport,

I dont let people like that get me down. I deal with enough suppliers with similar attitude for it to faze me lol

As for me not having the right mental attitude well thats just nonsense!

Well i have found a FTO locally, discussed the correct way to train and have booked a block of 10hrs with a good discount to start.

Its onwards and upwards now , excuse the pun haha


Ben

[Justiciar]

The plethora of armchair know it alls on here will always try and shoot you down!

Has it occured to you that some of the people you are referring to (about whom you in fact know little) have "f***ing done it", are speaking from their personal experience and have spent considerable parts of their life anywhere but an armchair

Our friend has told us he has a family and a business. He is about to study and learn to fly on borrowed money. He is thinking of setting up a microlight school or becoming a flying instructor. If he has any brain at all he will already have considered the economics, which are that flying instruction of almost any sort pays s**t, running any flight training organisation involves very low margins and is very susceptable to economic conditions - it also needs an airfield, but our friend has not told us if he has one in mind nor has he hinted at where the very considerable capital cost will come from, given that he will already be heavily in debt from three years of study and learning to fly

It doesn't appear much of a life plan from my arm chair. This is all driven by a love of flying, though he doesn't yet have a licence (I hope he hasn't paid too much up front for lessons - PPrune is littered with the tales of those who lost their money doing this, but hey, we mustn't be negative). Most of us sadly just work to fly, because the economics of that arrangement are so much more favourable, but then what do I know? Once he gets over the initial euphoria of first lesson, then first solo then getting his licence he may experience a bit of a reality check, if he is really lucky (before he spends another £25k of his own or borrowed money on crawling towards a commercial licence and Instructor Rating whilst at the same time having to earn a living).

[Supersport]

Has it occured to you that some of the people you are referring to (about whom you in fact know little) have "f***ing done it", are speaking from their personal experience and have spent considerable parts of their life anywhere but an armchair

Obviously. From perusing these forums on a regular basis, yes one does easily conclude that a number of users are in fact fairly well informed / educated and have 'been there and done it'.

However, one can also conclude that a number users quite enjoy demoralising others using various tones of condescending diatribe.

Apologies if I seemed ignorant in my previous post, it was not my intention. I just detest the pesimistic attitudes that so frequently riddle perfectly good natured threads on here (Get used it I hear you say!? This is PPRuNe!).

I guess Mr Gates, Branson, Sugar et al, to name but a few were all p*ssed on when they were starting out.

SS600 - (Officially eating his own words - sorry couldn't resist rising to it!)

[RatherBeFlying]

Your Business Skills will be Tested

The best way to make a small fortune in aviation is to start with a large one

Successful businessmen spot opportunities and exploit them. Your figuring out that taking a course qualifies you for a loan to do a PPL etc. shows a good mind for business

[maxialphas]

RBF,

Glad you can see that as not many can.

Do people think banks borrow money to small businesses for the fun? NO , they borrow money to small businesses to make money out of them , to exploit their need for cashflow.

All i am doing is the same apart from i will be paying it back at avery favourbale rate (£70 per month max)

Yes i do have a good head for business, i turned a failing company into a profitable one. The only reason i want to get out of computers now is i have no passion for it.

The credit crunch has affeected everyone but i still manage to stay afloat. The same would happen with a microlight school.

Yes some may frown on the way i am doing it but the end of the day i have a vision, a target i want to hit and i will get there no matter what. If thats sitting on my armchair dreaming then so be it.

I already have 2 airfields willing to base my school (one i have been visiting for 10yrs or more and am very friendly with the owner as i did his computer for him) and the other which is about 20 miles away form my home.

Either way i will make it succeed as i have 2yrs once i have my PPL to run the school with very little outlay.

Oh and already sourced an instructor who is willing to train for me for £20ph, as long as it fits in with his schedule.

You see , we arent all dreamers. It just comes down to optimism that afew of you lack.

Ben

[BackPacker]

I guess Mr Gates, Branson, Sugar et al, to name but a few were all p*ssed on when they were starting out.

Sure. Compare yourself to Mr. Gates, Mr. Branson, Mr. O'Leary or whoever you want if you think that's going to help. When we start our own business we're always looking at the shiny examples, "10 habits of highly effective people" and similar things. What we do not realize, often, is that most of these guys have had a succession of lucky breaks, being at the right place and time when something important happened. Plus, to a large extent, they had a unique vision of what their customers wanted and the industry was not providing. Branson vs. BA for instance.

But now that we're talking about the shiny and successful companies in aviation, here's a list of just a few airlines that went bust in 2008. (Taken from the Dutch aviation forum atcbox.com.) Most of these thought they were the next Virgin, Easyjet or Ryanair but somehow failed. Leaving in their wake debts, angry customers, insurance claims, shattered dreams and so forth.

01/01/2008 Alpi Eagles
06/01/2008 Aero Airlines
08/01/2008 BRTJ BritishJet.com
23/01/2008 CST Coast Air
14/01/2008 FFP Prima Charter
30/01/2008 City Star Airlines
11/02/2008 VID Aviaprad Airlines
29/02/2008 Boston-Maine Airways
08/03/2008 BigSky
13/03/2008 GirJet
18/03/2008 DHI Adam Air
25/03/2008 QSC African Safari Airways
30/03/2008 Freedom Air
30/03/2008 Airclass Airways
31/03/2008 JAA Japan Asia Airways
29/04/2008 NTW Nationwide Airlines
28/04/2008 AAH Aloha Airlines
02/04/2008 AMT ATA Airlines
09/04/2008 OHK Oasis Hong Kong Airlines
27/04/2008 ESS Eos Airlines
20/04/2008 VCX Ocean Airlines
07/04/2008 SKB Skybus Airlines
05/04/2008 SYW Skyway Airlines
11/04/2008 SWX Swazi Express Airways
03/05/2008 Mihin Lanka
13/05/2008 AOL Angkor Airways
09/05/2008 EMX Euromanx
13/05/2008 FEA Far Eastern Air Transport
23/05/2008 Club Air
30/05/2008 SLR Silverjet
31/05/2008 CCP Champion Air
10/06/2008 Magnicharters
11/06/2008 Aerocondor
16/07/2008 Yeti Airlines
21/07/2008 Ankair
21/07/2008 One-Two-Go
29/07/2008 Riau Airlines
13/08/2008 GCO Gemini Air Cargo
04/08/2008 SER Aerocalifornia
05/08/2008 Avolar
05/08/2008 Nova Air
28/08/2008 OOM Zoom Airlines
28/08/2008 UKZ Zoom Airlines (UK)
09/09/2008 FUA Futura International Airways
09/09/2008 FGL Futura Gael
11/09/2008 Air Bee
12/09/2008 XLA XL Airways UK
15/09/2008 APKX Air Pack Express
15/09/2008 AeBal
17/09/2008 Dalavia Russia
06/10/2008 Galaxy Airlines (Japan)
09/10/2008 Lagunair Spain
16/10/2008 Flysur Spain
17/10/2008 LTE Spain
17/10/2008 Omskavia
17/10/2008 Interavia
17/10/2008 Tesis
17/10/2008 Vyborg Airlines
18/10/2008 Hansung Airlines
20/10/2008 Flysur
21/10/2008 Aladia (Mexico)
29/10/2008 Sterling AirwaysAirlines
31/10/2008 Air Comet (Chile)
31/10/2008 Kras Air
01/11/2008 Domodedovo Airlines
08/11/2008 Alma (Mexico)
11/11/2008 Inter Airlines (Turkey)
01/12/2008 European Aviation Aircharter
01/12/2008 Primaris Airlines
01/12/2008 Siem Reap Airways International
03/12/2008 Flightline
06/12/2008 OK Air

What is your unique vision? What is your microlight school going to offer to your customers that other microlight schools are not providing? For starters, how many potential customers are there in the area where you intend to setup your business, and how much competition? I haven't seen any mention of the word customers so far in this whole thread. But they're the ones that eventually are going to pay off your debt and pay for your future dreams.

And just for the record, I have an MBA. But I found out that the MBA doesn't teach you to setup and run a successful business. What it teaches you is the basics of all the things that are required to setup and run a successful business: finance, HR, marketing, logistics and so forth. But at the end of the course you still have to identify that unique place in the market where money is to be made, because you are providing something to your customers that nobody else does.

[Fly-by-Wife]

banks borrow money to small businesses

If you can't tell the difference between "borrow" and "lend", you are destined to go far in business.

For the avoidance of any future doubt, banks LEND TO businesses, while businesses BORROW FROM banks.

Successful businesses repay the loan(s), btw. Although truly spectacular failures also bring down the bank(s).

FBW

[maxialphas]

Well done flybywife , you made yourself look clever.

Ok , banks LEND to small businesses.

Im not going to commnt on this anymore as its just getting a dumping ground for smart arses to try and find holes inmy theory.

I will also put my success story up in the future to shut you grumpy lot up.

Bye

[Justiciar]

The credit crunch has affeected everyone but i still manage to stay afloat. The same would happen with a microlight school.

I really am beginning to think that this is a giant wind up and I guess we are all falling for it, me included.

I cannot understand why you are bothering to ask anything, particularly as you appear to have joined PPrune just to ask this question. You clearly have done some research but your attitude to business and risk puzzles me. You say you have turned around a failing business. Good, then you must uderstand the way markets work and also understand that there is a world of difference between what is now a mainstream established business with presumably a good customer base and goodwill, i.e. computers, and flight training, which at the level you want to do it is and always will be a luxury activity. All, and I mean all, the flight schools in my area have had a torid time of it over the last few months. They have stayed afoat but others do not.

I already have 2 airfields willing to base my school (one i have been visiting for 10yrs or more and am very friendly with the owner as i did his computer for him) and the other which is about 20 miles away form my home.

OK, they may allow you to occupy their hangar and offices for free, or will they want you to sign a lease for several years, and probably pay a rent deposit. I am not sure if you friendly instructor charging you £20 an hour is the instructor your fledgling school intends to rely on to teach its students, but an arrangement "as long as it fits in with his schedule" is hardly a sound basis for operations when you are trying to build a student base.

we arent all dreamers. It just comes down to optimism that afew of you lack

Optimism is hugely important, but it is an additional quality and not a substitute for a sound business model. You seem to think that successful business rely simply on attitude and balls and nothing else. Those entrepreneurs who succeed do have those qualities but also understand their market and the economics and have a well thought out business plan. They are not casual b*llsh***ers who just talk the talk.

Do people think banks borrow money to small businesses for the fun? NO , they borrow money to small businesses to make money out of them , to exploit their need for cashflow.

I assume you are referring to banks lending rather than borrowing money! Particularly in the current climate they will want to see that you business can generate enough cash to pay their loan and to keep the wheels turning. They will want to see you plan with specific projections for cash, outgoings and profit. If you can persuade them to lend to you it will be at significantly higher rate than you are curently paying on a student loan and it is likely that you house will be charged as additional security.

[airborne_artist]

Some facts:

The market is over-supplied with newly-qualified FIs for JAA PPL training (read the FI forum).

There is not a large market for full time FI(M) - most are part-time, and the ones that are full-time are probably making £25,000 tops, I think you'll find. A small number may do better than that, but given UK winter daylight, weather and customers you can't bank on it.

[BackPacker]

Maxi, do you see a contradiction here?

I am going to need 30k per annum

Oh and already sourced an instructor who is willing to train for me for £20ph, as long as it fits in with his schedule.

A full time job is roughly 40 weeks of 40 hours = 1600 hours. Times £20ph is £32000. That means that you have to actually train people full-time, and do things like administration, marketing and everything in your own time to get the income you want. And it assumes zero downtime because of weather, maintenance, late cancellations, airport closures or other snags. Or do you think you can ask significantly more than the current market price for microlight training?

i would still make money out of the £100 per hour training charge that is typical these days.

Of course if you own the aircraft you might just make a tiny bit of profit on the rental rates but search the forums for "cheap hour building" and you'll find that it's very, very rare to be able to operate a reasonable aircraft, even a microlight, for much less than £80ph. So that profit won't be much. And of course, if the students you are training are going solo at some point in time, you only make the rental profit and are sitting idle on the ground because you have no airplane to train others on. And what happens when, after obtaining their PPL, they come back to you in droves to rent your aircraft so that they can finally exercise their PPL privileges?

Im not going to commnt on this anymore as its just getting a dumping ground for smart arses to try and find holes inmy theory.

Maybe one day you'll learn that the best friends you have are not the ones who put you up a pedestal and admire everything you say. The best friends are the ones that are willing to refuse you something, or poke holes in your theories, to prevent you from getting harmed.

And a lot of the smart arses 'round here have been in the industry for a considerable time and know what works and not. Whereas you don't even have a PPL yet, let alone an FI ticket.

Please dont dimiss this as another silly thread , its a true dilemma and need some advice.

If all you wanted is moral support, you should have said so. Don't dismiss the advice because you don't like it.

Basically i want a fresh start.

Did anyone mention the term "mid-life crisis" already?