Air Accident Posts
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Central London
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Air Accident Posts
BRL (who is a moderator) recently had a go at me for posting accident info here he claimed was not in the public domain.
In the two recent cases I posted (A) Great Oakley Fatality because I fly from nearby and (B) because I owned a Piper PA32 for a number of years which I flew from Detroit to Perth in West Australia.(The subject aircraft G-LUNA ditched off Dungeness)
BRL accused me of being someone who wanted to rubberneck and post for the sake of it.
May I remind you all that daily accident info is available here:
Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety WikiBase > Year index > 2009
As someone who has lost a number of friends in fatal aircraft incidents over the years I find BRL's juvenile attitude to aircraft accident reports offensive.
Maybe we can have feedback here to assess the feeling to posting info on accidents?
On a personal note I am happy for any accident I am involved in to be posted and discussed here
In the two recent cases I posted (A) Great Oakley Fatality because I fly from nearby and (B) because I owned a Piper PA32 for a number of years which I flew from Detroit to Perth in West Australia.(The subject aircraft G-LUNA ditched off Dungeness)
BRL accused me of being someone who wanted to rubberneck and post for the sake of it.
May I remind you all that daily accident info is available here:
Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety WikiBase > Year index > 2009
As someone who has lost a number of friends in fatal aircraft incidents over the years I find BRL's juvenile attitude to aircraft accident reports offensive.
Maybe we can have feedback here to assess the feeling to posting info on accidents?
On a personal note I am happy for any accident I am involved in to be posted and discussed here
May I remind you all that daily accident info is available here:
Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety WikiBase > Year index > 2009
Aviation Safety Network > ASN Aviation Safety WikiBase > Year index > 2009
There is a balance to be struck between early information that might help others and inadvertently making life more difficult for those involved or closely associated with those involved. I think that in the first 24 or so hours after a serious incident / accident that comment should be minimal so that relatives hear from the authorities what has happened - not journalists.
Well, I am on BRL's side here. The more you protest the more you come over as a complete pratt but then I have never liked journalists who whine.
It's his train set so if you don't like it, start your own website.
It's his train set so if you don't like it, start your own website.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Central London
Posts: 460
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Well, I am on BRL's side here. The more you protest the more you come over as a complete pratt but then I have never liked journalists who whine.
It's his train set so if you don't like it, start your own website.
It's his train set so if you don't like it, start your own website.
In that case can you ask him to lay off the commercial accident info on rumour and news
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: UK
Age: 85
Posts: 697
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BRL was a bit quick in my opinion.
As pilots we are always interested in flight accidents, quick news and identification of the aircraft is not a bad thing.
Pilots do the majority of their training in order to avoid accidents, it's a relatively small community and we seek information on events that may well happen to us some day as well as people we may know.
Where but on here can you get a discussion about events as they happen and it must be very unlikely that the next of kin come and have a look on PPrune.
Have a look at the large number of reads these threads have, if we weren't concerned we wouldn't be reading it ye?
As pilots we are always interested in flight accidents, quick news and identification of the aircraft is not a bad thing.
Pilots do the majority of their training in order to avoid accidents, it's a relatively small community and we seek information on events that may well happen to us some day as well as people we may know.
Where but on here can you get a discussion about events as they happen and it must be very unlikely that the next of kin come and have a look on PPrune.
Have a look at the large number of reads these threads have, if we weren't concerned we wouldn't be reading it ye?
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Dublin
Posts: 2,547
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I'm all for discussing the circumstances around accidents. It helps us learn and be better pilots.
I would rather learn from someone else's mistakes, or hypothetical circumstances that come from such accident discussions, than from my own mistakes.
However being first to publish the names and addresses of the persons involved is bad taste in my opinion. That information add's nothing to the dicussion. For those of us who are distant aquantances or simply want to know out of curiousity, this information will come in time.
I think BRL was perfectly correct to call you up on it. I think (and I'm sure he'd agree with hindsight) that it would have been better done in private, rather than in public. But even on that point I don't have much sympathy for you, as you too have chosen to have this argument in public rather than in private.
BRL is an excellent moderator. He has moderated private flying now for a long time, with a very light touch. It's rare that he pulls anything, and his calls are almost alright right. In this case, I think he's spot on, but should have done it in private.
He has my full support in this case. But don't let it get to you. We have all had something pulled, or found ourselves on the wrong side of moderation in the past. Don't make it into a big deal. Life is to short to get upset about this things. Let it go and be happy
dp
I would rather learn from someone else's mistakes, or hypothetical circumstances that come from such accident discussions, than from my own mistakes.
However being first to publish the names and addresses of the persons involved is bad taste in my opinion. That information add's nothing to the dicussion. For those of us who are distant aquantances or simply want to know out of curiousity, this information will come in time.
I think BRL was perfectly correct to call you up on it. I think (and I'm sure he'd agree with hindsight) that it would have been better done in private, rather than in public. But even on that point I don't have much sympathy for you, as you too have chosen to have this argument in public rather than in private.
BRL is an excellent moderator. He has moderated private flying now for a long time, with a very light touch. It's rare that he pulls anything, and his calls are almost alright right. In this case, I think he's spot on, but should have done it in private.
He has my full support in this case. But don't let it get to you. We have all had something pulled, or found ourselves on the wrong side of moderation in the past. Don't make it into a big deal. Life is to short to get upset about this things. Let it go and be happy
dp
Hovering AND talking
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Propping up bars in the Lands of D H Lawrence and Bishop Bonner
Age: 59
Posts: 5,705
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
and it must be very unlikely that the next of kin come and have a look on PPRuNe.
Cheers
Whirls
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
it must be very unlikely that the next of kin come and have a look on PPRuNe.
Actually it was hinted that the next of kin later got in touch with some of the more experienced pilots on here and discussed some aspects of the accident in great depth, in private.
Furthermore, threads on here are also read and indexed by the Google bots (and other search engines). If a name of an accident victim or the aircraft registration appears on here then you can be sure that it is one of the first ten hits in a Google search within two or three days. And that means that you can be pretty sure that the next of kin will be around to see what's been posted within, oh, a week or so?
So, in contrast, I find it very likely that the next of kin will eventually read what I write in an accident thread, and I personally try to write my responses (if any) so that the next of kin are not offended, and with respect for the deceased.
Last edited by BackPacker; 6th Jul 2009 at 08:54.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: london
Posts: 676
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
for sake of clarity here, if I stuff my arrow into the ground tomorrow, everyone is welcome to speculate on what I did or didn't do to their hearts content - this is a 'rumour network' after all - but with the caveat that their reasons for posting are educational, rather than concerned only with self-agrandisement.
I think the unseemly rush to be the 1st to name the pilot concerned, is unhelpful, morbid and distasteful.
I think the unseemly rush to be the 1st to name the pilot concerned, is unhelpful, morbid and distasteful.
Join Date: May 2001
Location: 75N 16E
Age: 54
Posts: 4,729
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Same here.Though I don't think Naming should be encouraged.
But regarding "offending" the NOK - Unfortunately the NOK may not like what they read, but it may be the truth. There are people on here who bleat like crazy - one specifically springs to mind, the PA28 crash not so long ago in IMC. One poster in particular was very offended when people suggested that the flight might have been an accidental flight into IMC and it wasn't the pilots fault.
I reckon that we should revist these posts when the AAIB reports come out and compare and contrast to see what conclusion that they came to - I suspect it'll be very similar to the conclusion we came to.
The recent DA42 at Lands End was a prime example - we all speculated that the DA42 would not have been able to take off again and guess what....we were right. So who would like to start resurecting these posts?
PS: BRL has always seemed fair to me...
But regarding "offending" the NOK - Unfortunately the NOK may not like what they read, but it may be the truth. There are people on here who bleat like crazy - one specifically springs to mind, the PA28 crash not so long ago in IMC. One poster in particular was very offended when people suggested that the flight might have been an accidental flight into IMC and it wasn't the pilots fault.
I reckon that we should revist these posts when the AAIB reports come out and compare and contrast to see what conclusion that they came to - I suspect it'll be very similar to the conclusion we came to.
The recent DA42 at Lands End was a prime example - we all speculated that the DA42 would not have been able to take off again and guess what....we were right. So who would like to start resurecting these posts?
PS: BRL has always seemed fair to me...
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 1,234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
And you can speculate on any of my crashes as well!
Quite why people should always be treated with kid gloves escapes me. For flying the vast majority of accidents are actually the pilots responsiblity. Even when there is a mechanical failure, the severity of the accident still comes back to the pilots 'handling' of the event. That is an inescapable fact. If people cannot accept that then they should n't do it - be it, flying or readings these postings.
In wider society the self censorship that goes on to avoid upsetting some small group of interested people is a great way to ensure a 'beige' society where nothing happens, nothing is discussed and nothing much works.
Quite why people should always be treated with kid gloves escapes me. For flying the vast majority of accidents are actually the pilots responsiblity. Even when there is a mechanical failure, the severity of the accident still comes back to the pilots 'handling' of the event. That is an inescapable fact. If people cannot accept that then they should n't do it - be it, flying or readings these postings.
In wider society the self censorship that goes on to avoid upsetting some small group of interested people is a great way to ensure a 'beige' society where nothing happens, nothing is discussed and nothing much works.
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: lancs.UK
Age: 77
Posts: 1,191
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Nothing wrong in being first,- if that's your bag, but naming names is ,IMO, bad -mannered and discourteous to the victims....that should be the perogative of the Authorities,to release details after NOK have been informed.
IN the case of the OP's post that invoked BRL's ire, the bare facts would have sufficed,- as it was, the name of the registered owner was posted with theimplication that, rightly or wrongly, that was the PIC. the line was crossed.
I'm no shrinking violet and would expect an unseemly scrum of friends to queue up to "bag" any of my possessions they coveted....but others would get upset and should be given due regard.
IN the case of the OP's post that invoked BRL's ire, the bare facts would have sufficed,- as it was, the name of the registered owner was posted with theimplication that, rightly or wrongly, that was the PIC. the line was crossed.
I'm no shrinking violet and would expect an unseemly scrum of friends to queue up to "bag" any of my possessions they coveted....but others would get upset and should be given due regard.
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: In the boot of my car!
Posts: 5,982
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The whole point and why it is so important that we can discuss accidents is that such discussions "may" deter another pilot from making a simular mistake.
Whether we happen to hit on the real cause is IMO irrelevant it is getting pilots to think around the accident and what could have caused it that is so crucial.
To discuss a whole host of possible causes also brings out other ways in how such an accident could occur and other accident scenarios we can avoid.
That MAY include the actual cause of the accident in the conclusion arrived at in the discussions.
Accidents shock us for our vulnerability is always tucked away in the back of our minds and surfaces when these tragedies occur.
We are then more open to taking in lessons rather than a year later when the AAIB report comes out and the shock factor has gone.
As long as postings are opinions and guesses rather than put over as a matter of fact I really dont care whether relatives pop in here or not. Its a pilot forum for pilots not deceased loved ones relatives. "dont look for fear of what you might find" springs to mind.
Posting a pilots name or aircraft reg is in bad taste because it doesnt add anything to the purpose of accident discussions. Pilot X in aircraft XYZ is enough. The aircraft type is important but not the reg and certainly not the name of the poor soul.
Pace
Whether we happen to hit on the real cause is IMO irrelevant it is getting pilots to think around the accident and what could have caused it that is so crucial.
To discuss a whole host of possible causes also brings out other ways in how such an accident could occur and other accident scenarios we can avoid.
That MAY include the actual cause of the accident in the conclusion arrived at in the discussions.
Accidents shock us for our vulnerability is always tucked away in the back of our minds and surfaces when these tragedies occur.
We are then more open to taking in lessons rather than a year later when the AAIB report comes out and the shock factor has gone.
As long as postings are opinions and guesses rather than put over as a matter of fact I really dont care whether relatives pop in here or not. Its a pilot forum for pilots not deceased loved ones relatives. "dont look for fear of what you might find" springs to mind.
Posting a pilots name or aircraft reg is in bad taste because it doesnt add anything to the purpose of accident discussions. Pilot X in aircraft XYZ is enough. The aircraft type is important but not the reg and certainly not the name of the poor soul.
Pace
Moderator
It's his train set so if you don't like it, start your own website.
I generally see no need to identify persons, aircraft or specific locations prior to the final report doing so, and even at that point, getting personal does not improve the value of the content for learning purposes.
I have previously posted that I feel more comfortable, particularly in fatal crashes, discussing the report of the accident, rather than the accident itself. That way people who are close to the event have time to deal with things. I can be patient. Only in cases where some major defect in a fleet is suddenly exposed by a crash, do we really need to know right away. In those cases, we'll have safety action from the relevent authority to discuss, rather than the crash itself.
I find myself sometimes having to re-read the name of this website, just to remind myself why I chose this one (and only this one) to spend my effort. We are trying to present to each other as Professionals, right?
Pilot DAR
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Northants
Posts: 42
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My dad and my uncle both also fly and I know at least one of them reads PPRUNE. I'm sure they wouldn't want to hear anything about me from this place. I should imagine mine isn't the only family with more than one aviator in it.
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Aberdeen
Posts: 1,234
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So to quote some of the posters - curious relatives might be upset to read speculation over the cause of an accident or the abilities of the pilot or just the syntax of the posting - and so we should not speculate or comment on accidents?
Oh pleeaassee!
If they are that sensitive then perhaps not reading might be a sensible approach. This forum particularly can be pretty critical - remember the 'drunken Oban accident' which might or might not have been?
Pretty robust but no one felt that relatives sensibilities should stop it. I very much agree with that approach, we spend far too much time worrying about other people's feelings.
I do share the unease about early naming - if only because it can sometimes be very difficult to contact relatives - but beyond that - open season.
Oh pleeaassee!
If they are that sensitive then perhaps not reading might be a sensible approach. This forum particularly can be pretty critical - remember the 'drunken Oban accident' which might or might not have been?
Pretty robust but no one felt that relatives sensibilities should stop it. I very much agree with that approach, we spend far too much time worrying about other people's feelings.
I do share the unease about early naming - if only because it can sometimes be very difficult to contact relatives - but beyond that - open season.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: UK
Age: 51
Posts: 11
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
You know something. I was talking to somebody today actually about the attitude of the mods on here. Saying things like
Well, I am on BRL's side here. The more you protest the more you come over as a complete pratt but then I have never liked journalists who whine.
It's his train set so if you don't like it, start your own website.
just confirms what i already knew. I think the moderators/owner needs to get a reality check. This is a public forum, that lots of different people frequent and the "you need us more than we need you" attitude absolutely stinks.
I personally know of a forum that was very busy and moderation just for the sake of it killed it. Its no longer around now.
I know someone who is actually writing a forum as we speak to do with aviation and i personally cant wait.
Ive seen how some moderators on here speak to people and it just goes to show what muppets they really are. Ive also seen it how they try and muzzle peoples opinions if it differes from there. I urge people to go to another forum, one that has some manners!!
It would help if the moderators were actual pilots or pilot enthusiasts as i cant imagine any are with their poor attitude.
Anyway im off now as i cant stand this clicky, stupid mentaility any longer.
Well, I am on BRL's side here. The more you protest the more you come over as a complete pratt but then I have never liked journalists who whine.
It's his train set so if you don't like it, start your own website.
just confirms what i already knew. I think the moderators/owner needs to get a reality check. This is a public forum, that lots of different people frequent and the "you need us more than we need you" attitude absolutely stinks.
I personally know of a forum that was very busy and moderation just for the sake of it killed it. Its no longer around now.
I know someone who is actually writing a forum as we speak to do with aviation and i personally cant wait.
Ive seen how some moderators on here speak to people and it just goes to show what muppets they really are. Ive also seen it how they try and muzzle peoples opinions if it differes from there. I urge people to go to another forum, one that has some manners!!
It would help if the moderators were actual pilots or pilot enthusiasts as i cant imagine any are with their poor attitude.
Anyway im off now as i cant stand this clicky, stupid mentaility any longer.