Those that can do, those that can't teach.
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Those that can do, those that can't teach.
Those that can do, those that can't teach, that's the saying. Except in the world of aviation that is. I think that teaching is a skill and as a PPL student it would appear not all FI have the enthusiasm to teach. I know that the FI(A)R course consists of 125 hours of ground school and 30 hours of flying training to get the pilot up to the level to teach but when you get into the kite with a guy who is there to hours build hours and is not interested it can be soul destroying and expensive.
In aviation, there must be a better way to build hours and still make some money....
Don't get me wrong, some instructors I have had have been 1st class and I could not ask for better instruction, others well if I could have I would have landed solo!
Anybody else had a rotter of instructor?
In aviation, there must be a better way to build hours and still make some money....
Don't get me wrong, some instructors I have had have been 1st class and I could not ask for better instruction, others well if I could have I would have landed solo!
Anybody else had a rotter of instructor?
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If you're paying for flight training, it's your money, get what you're paying for. Give the instructor one chance to get it right, by telling him the problem. You're there to learn, not be discouraged. The role of the instructor is to keep you safe while you learn for yourself, to assure that you meet all of the requirements for a license, and to teach the extra, and offer wisdom based on their experience. If they, themselves have little experience.... well....
I seek out the white haired instructor. They ahve survived, and I want to learn how they did that, and they have the stories to tell you as to how they did it! That's what you're paying for. It's one thing to be taught "do it this way" because this what the book told me I had to teach you (but I really don't know why). It's much better to be taught "do it this way", because I've seen what happens when you don't, and here's the reasoning behind it.
Sure, there will be times during you learning when flying with a low time instructor is ok, and you get to practice safely, as long as you both know why both of you are there, and what is expected. There are also those few instructors who slip through, have horrible people skills, but are amazing pilots. If you can stand them, and extract their wisdom, you'll be the better for it, but it can be stressful.
Everyone has a bad day from time to time, but if your instructor is not filling you with enthusiasm for flying, get a different instructor, or school. Flying is a fantasic endevour, and if an instructor can't make the most of that, you've got the wrong person!
Good luck! Pilot DAR
I seek out the white haired instructor. They ahve survived, and I want to learn how they did that, and they have the stories to tell you as to how they did it! That's what you're paying for. It's one thing to be taught "do it this way" because this what the book told me I had to teach you (but I really don't know why). It's much better to be taught "do it this way", because I've seen what happens when you don't, and here's the reasoning behind it.
Sure, there will be times during you learning when flying with a low time instructor is ok, and you get to practice safely, as long as you both know why both of you are there, and what is expected. There are also those few instructors who slip through, have horrible people skills, but are amazing pilots. If you can stand them, and extract their wisdom, you'll be the better for it, but it can be stressful.
Everyone has a bad day from time to time, but if your instructor is not filling you with enthusiasm for flying, get a different instructor, or school. Flying is a fantasic endevour, and if an instructor can't make the most of that, you've got the wrong person!
Good luck! Pilot DAR
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I love that quote
I seek out the white haired instructor. They have survived, and I want to learn how they did that, and they have the stories to tell you as to how they did it!
I guess I've been lucky...
-- primary instructor: 60s, 10,000+ hrs mainly instructing (still working now, did an instrument currency flight with him last night)
-- acro instructor: ex-USAF instructor pilot, 10,000+ hrs including extensive experience in U2s and C130s
-- heli instructor: Vietnam-era, 10,000+ hrs of teaching and commercial heli work
I understand the economics of the "puppy farm" system but I'm extremely glad I haven't had to deal with it. Flying, much more than most things, is so much a question of "yeah, seen that a dozen times before, no big deal, here's what you do". Being taught by someone with barely more hours than yourself - I just don't see it.
n5296s
-- primary instructor: 60s, 10,000+ hrs mainly instructing (still working now, did an instrument currency flight with him last night)
-- acro instructor: ex-USAF instructor pilot, 10,000+ hrs including extensive experience in U2s and C130s
-- heli instructor: Vietnam-era, 10,000+ hrs of teaching and commercial heli work
I understand the economics of the "puppy farm" system but I'm extremely glad I haven't had to deal with it. Flying, much more than most things, is so much a question of "yeah, seen that a dozen times before, no big deal, here's what you do". Being taught by someone with barely more hours than yourself - I just don't see it.
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Yes, the best instructors are the old grey ex airline pilots, usually.
The reason there are so many naff instructors is because you need a JAA CPL to be paid for instructing.
"Instructor" or "Examiner" quasi qualifications like a CRI or CRE are no good if you are to be paid (and in any case cannot be used for initial PPL training).
And "nobody" is going to do a CPL, with its 14 exams (CPL/IR being the minimum meaningful option) and the related crap like spending time at a professional pilot FTO, just to scratch out a living doing flight training.
The reason there are so many naff instructors is because you need a JAA CPL to be paid for instructing.
"Instructor" or "Examiner" quasi qualifications like a CRI or CRE are no good if you are to be paid (and in any case cannot be used for initial PPL training).
And "nobody" is going to do a CPL, with its 14 exams (CPL/IR being the minimum meaningful option) and the related crap like spending time at a professional pilot FTO, just to scratch out a living doing flight training.
As a student you are paying for the flight instruction being provided. If you feel you are not getting effective instruction then it is imperative you have a sit down with your instructor and discuss the issues. If this does not work you need to talk to the chief flying instructor. If you get the brush off or things do not get better then take your custom elsewhere.
BUT
You as the student have responsibilties as well; did you
1) show up for the lesson ready to learn (ie not hung over, half asleep or with your mind still a the office meeting)
2) do all the homework and assigned reading you were assigned
3) reviewed the last lesson and made a mental note of the areas you need to work on as identified inthe post flight debrief
I have no patience for folks who whine about their instructor but do not put any effort into doing the necessary work.
You are not learning how to play golf. Get it really wrong and you are going to die.
With respect to the hours building stigma; I think the whole question is irrelevant. Pretty much everyone is hours buiding in aviation. Is not the copliot on the 737 hours building toward command? Why is that OK but hours buiding as an Instructor inherantly bad ? I think ultimately the issue is irrelavent. If a low time pilot decides to become an instructor than I would expect him/her to work very hard to be the best instructor they can be. If they don't then they are not acting as a professional pilot and should be called on thier unacceptable conduct.
BUT
You as the student have responsibilties as well; did you
1) show up for the lesson ready to learn (ie not hung over, half asleep or with your mind still a the office meeting)
2) do all the homework and assigned reading you were assigned
3) reviewed the last lesson and made a mental note of the areas you need to work on as identified inthe post flight debrief
I have no patience for folks who whine about their instructor but do not put any effort into doing the necessary work.
You are not learning how to play golf. Get it really wrong and you are going to die.
With respect to the hours building stigma; I think the whole question is irrelevant. Pretty much everyone is hours buiding in aviation. Is not the copliot on the 737 hours building toward command? Why is that OK but hours buiding as an Instructor inherantly bad ? I think ultimately the issue is irrelavent. If a low time pilot decides to become an instructor than I would expect him/her to work very hard to be the best instructor they can be. If they don't then they are not acting as a professional pilot and should be called on thier unacceptable conduct.
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I'm surprised about is that no one has mentioned that different types of instructor suit different people.
Personally I'd much rather have the quiet instructor who only prompts me when I haven't worked out my own mistake rather than the more military style of pointing out exactly what I've done wrong the second I've done it. I'm certain there are plenty of people of the opposite persuasion...
As it happens, when I did my PPL the instructor I had was absolutely brilliant for me and always gave me a chance to identify my own errors before he pointed them out. He was a "grey hair" and had a great deal of experience and I think this had a lot to do with his outlook.
Personally I'd much rather have the quiet instructor who only prompts me when I haven't worked out my own mistake rather than the more military style of pointing out exactly what I've done wrong the second I've done it. I'm certain there are plenty of people of the opposite persuasion...
As it happens, when I did my PPL the instructor I had was absolutely brilliant for me and always gave me a chance to identify my own errors before he pointed them out. He was a "grey hair" and had a great deal of experience and I think this had a lot to do with his outlook.
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As said, it's a two way thing,your enthusiasm should spark instructor enthusiasm and vice versa.
Make sure you get a good pre-flight brief and thorough post flight de-brief.
You can voice your concerns with the instructor and CFI,if not happy find somewhere else.
Lister
Make sure you get a good pre-flight brief and thorough post flight de-brief.
You can voice your concerns with the instructor and CFI,if not happy find somewhere else.
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As a student you are paying for the flight instruction being provided. If you feel you are not getting effective instruction then it is imperative you have a sit down with your instructor and discuss the issues.
I'm surprised about is that no one has mentioned that different types of instructor suit different people.
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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The generalisation that the best instructors are the old silver haired foxes is too big in my opinion.
This from someone who has instructed amongst a wide range of professionals: You won't hear this notion bandied about very often, infact it's positively ignored amongst those in the know, but most of the old boys look for ways out of getting airbourne (unless they're part-timers flying for fun) because (to put it bluntly) 10'000+ hours sitting in a spamcan makes one either very peculiar or extremely impatient.
Faced with the prospect of a young, hungry and enthusiastic instructor or the hackneyed old goat with a drink problem, I know who I'd sooner be learning to fly with, I see students make that same choice every week and they don't chose the old git! You make generalisations? I can play that game too... but I'm not far off the mark you know - which might scare some people should they ever choose to remove their rose tinted specs. Things are not always as they appear when you first experience GA as a student pilot - trust me!
Happy flying!
VFE.
This from someone who has instructed amongst a wide range of professionals: You won't hear this notion bandied about very often, infact it's positively ignored amongst those in the know, but most of the old boys look for ways out of getting airbourne (unless they're part-timers flying for fun) because (to put it bluntly) 10'000+ hours sitting in a spamcan makes one either very peculiar or extremely impatient.
Faced with the prospect of a young, hungry and enthusiastic instructor or the hackneyed old goat with a drink problem, I know who I'd sooner be learning to fly with, I see students make that same choice every week and they don't chose the old git! You make generalisations? I can play that game too... but I'm not far off the mark you know - which might scare some people should they ever choose to remove their rose tinted specs. Things are not always as they appear when you first experience GA as a student pilot - trust me!
Happy flying!
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The generalisation that the best instructors are the old silver haired foxes is too big in my opinion.
A freshly trained instructor can have no interest at all in instruction, or he/she can be super motivated to have landed their first actual job in aviation, and put a lot more effort in it than the student can reasonably expect.
A freshly trained instructor can lack important knowledge, or can have all that knowlege fresh in his mind from his own recent training.
An old fox can teach the student really important things that they would otherwise have missed, or he could overload the student with extra, unnecessary material that detracts from their ability to "just fly the airplane right!".
An old fox can teach tricks, methods and techniques that go beyond the basics and increase the student's abilities, or that are not up to the latest standards of aviation or instruction.
Just to take four randomly chosen specimens from an infinite list of examples.
Let's put to rest the fallacy that "experience makes you better", and rather realize that "experience allows you to get better, iff you take that opportunity".
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I think we are being a bit unfair on us newbies here . Yes there are a lot of instructors out there these days that do not actually want to be such and are just marking time so to speak. There are however others like myself who instruct because we want to and enjoy it . I am not silver haired just yet although I am getting there . I am not vastly experienced either ,but "from small acorns" and all that ****.
I would suggest that anyone contemplating flying training quizzes their instructor sufficiently to negate any fears they may have that he is vile hour building type . There are some wannabee good instructors kicking about there. As for those who cant teach ??Pah !!
I have recently come across some types who feel that my pre 500hrs cpl/ir fic are beneath their steely eyed sky god 600hrs and why should I be teaching them what could I posssibly know??.
Well I have done maybe a dozen of such checkouts on the more than 500hrs club and have yet to find one who can hold a height, heading and speed with any degree of skill , plus or minus 800ft is currently the tolerances most think is acceptable .
As with most things attitude is as important as knowledge and skill .
Bjorn said it best in his last paragraph methinks well said you
I would suggest that anyone contemplating flying training quizzes their instructor sufficiently to negate any fears they may have that he is vile hour building type . There are some wannabee good instructors kicking about there. As for those who cant teach ??Pah !!
I have recently come across some types who feel that my pre 500hrs cpl/ir fic are beneath their steely eyed sky god 600hrs and why should I be teaching them what could I posssibly know??.
Well I have done maybe a dozen of such checkouts on the more than 500hrs club and have yet to find one who can hold a height, heading and speed with any degree of skill , plus or minus 800ft is currently the tolerances most think is acceptable .
As with most things attitude is as important as knowledge and skill .
Bjorn said it best in his last paragraph methinks well said you
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I think much depends on local competition. Where I was taught, there were eight fixed wing schools. Most of them have gone bust since. Some of the instructors were on a £10/day retainer plus £10-20/hr for actual airborne time. That sort of thing will result in the recruitment of instructors with a pretty severe hour building objective. Instructors which are paid something more reasonable are going to be, on the whole, better. Still, each will have a view based on their own experiences.
I don't think +/-800ft altitude hold is acceptable, BTW
How long have these people taken to reach 500hrs???
I don't think +/-800ft altitude hold is acceptable, BTW
How long have these people taken to reach 500hrs???
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If you want to generalise (always a dangerous game) find an instructor who flys GA.
By that I mean not someone who instructs, but actually owns or has a share in an aircraft.
I appreciate they are a rare breed, not least because of the cost of owning an aircraft themselves. However, there are more than a few around.
The fact that they actually fly and "love" GA makes a huge difference.
My mate is a full time commercial pilot, owns her own cub and teaches one day a week. 10 years ago she owned her own cub, taught most of the week and was seeking a commercial job.
Our own Bose on here would probably be a good example. Someone who teaches, flys for pleasure and has more than a small interest in GA for GAs sake.
By that I mean not someone who instructs, but actually owns or has a share in an aircraft.
I appreciate they are a rare breed, not least because of the cost of owning an aircraft themselves. However, there are more than a few around.
The fact that they actually fly and "love" GA makes a huge difference.
My mate is a full time commercial pilot, owns her own cub and teaches one day a week. 10 years ago she owned her own cub, taught most of the week and was seeking a commercial job.
Our own Bose on here would probably be a good example. Someone who teaches, flys for pleasure and has more than a small interest in GA for GAs sake.
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IO , god knows but they look down on newly qualled instructors .
Like I said I havent done many yet but I am quite surprised at the low level of skill displayed by these steely eyed sky gods , its also the lack of any wish to improve that staggers me , if you can get them to admit what their doing is wrong.
I flew with one chap last week who did 5 circuits and at no point during the flight were we ever in balance , in fact during the climb we were grossly out of balance , but would this guy listen , "I do okay without it " Was the reply
Bizzare
But I enjoy the challenge and am looking forward to teaching those that really want to learn and become safe pilots
Like I said I havent done many yet but I am quite surprised at the low level of skill displayed by these steely eyed sky gods , its also the lack of any wish to improve that staggers me , if you can get them to admit what their doing is wrong.
I flew with one chap last week who did 5 circuits and at no point during the flight were we ever in balance , in fact during the climb we were grossly out of balance , but would this guy listen , "I do okay without it " Was the reply
Bizzare
But I enjoy the challenge and am looking forward to teaching those that really want to learn and become safe pilots
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I would be interested in their background. I don't think 500hrs even remotely makes you into any kind of sky god. I've just passed 1k hrs, since 2001, and I like to think that when I fly manually I fly accurately, within 100ft generally. The ATP who did my BFR the other day said I fly to ATP standard.
And I don't know any owner-pilot who does even half-serious touring who is as sloppy as those you have met.
There are also many 1k+ hr pilots who have accumulated this over say 30 years, and many rarely fly nowadays. Their skills will erode, but if they stick to Sunday VFR they aren't going to generally kill themselves.
There are also many pilots who do only a small fraction of what they claim. Some are readily found on pilot forums, but not all. The other week I was in a group of pilots (abroad) and one chap made a fantastic claim on how many trips he had made between a particular pair of countries. The rest of us looked at each other discreetly, and instantly worked out he was exxagerating by at least 10x. Yet, despite his obvious intelligence, he thought he could get away with such obvious bullsh*t, and in a group of people who can most definitely add up. So a lot of your sky gods are probably talking bull and some may even have forged their logbooks.
As I mentioned earlier, a lot of professional people find things a bit hard when they start to learn to fly. If you are reasonably successful then you are probably well organised and - not in my case but often in business, especially if you are young - pretty aggressive. At the far end you get some cocky d1ckheads....
But take someone who is just reasonably good at their profession. They walk into a flying school and what do they see? I don't need to answer that, do I? Much flight training needs an overhaul. I don't think it is the age of the instructor as much as the way the whole thing is set up.
And I don't know any owner-pilot who does even half-serious touring who is as sloppy as those you have met.
There are also many 1k+ hr pilots who have accumulated this over say 30 years, and many rarely fly nowadays. Their skills will erode, but if they stick to Sunday VFR they aren't going to generally kill themselves.
There are also many pilots who do only a small fraction of what they claim. Some are readily found on pilot forums, but not all. The other week I was in a group of pilots (abroad) and one chap made a fantastic claim on how many trips he had made between a particular pair of countries. The rest of us looked at each other discreetly, and instantly worked out he was exxagerating by at least 10x. Yet, despite his obvious intelligence, he thought he could get away with such obvious bullsh*t, and in a group of people who can most definitely add up. So a lot of your sky gods are probably talking bull and some may even have forged their logbooks.
As I mentioned earlier, a lot of professional people find things a bit hard when they start to learn to fly. If you are reasonably successful then you are probably well organised and - not in my case but often in business, especially if you are young - pretty aggressive. At the far end you get some cocky d1ckheads....
But take someone who is just reasonably good at their profession. They walk into a flying school and what do they see? I don't need to answer that, do I? Much flight training needs an overhaul. I don't think it is the age of the instructor as much as the way the whole thing is set up.
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Tis true IO .
The aviation industry is full of bull****ters and yeh a great many are found in this very arena , and in the corner of flying clubs everywhere AllaKadoohs as they are commonly known .
I am lucky that age isnt something I will be seen to have as an issue as I am forty albeit inexperienced as an Instructor.
I dont think the training in itself necessarily need amending the PPL has been almost this way for years and in general seems to be adequate .
It is the attitude that some are holier than thou that gets people hurt and not particularly lack of or standard of training .
Im sure EASA will stir the pot a bit more and come up with all manner of amendments allegedly for our benefit , the IMC being the hot potato.
I have never liked the hour building instructors and think that very few make good ones , there wikll be obvious exceptions .
If I am found wanting as an instructor in the early days I can only hope I will improve with experience , honest feedback from trial lessons and group checks are always invited .
I do however see a few guys whom Im happy to say I will not be emulating
The aviation industry is full of bull****ters and yeh a great many are found in this very arena , and in the corner of flying clubs everywhere AllaKadoohs as they are commonly known .
I am lucky that age isnt something I will be seen to have as an issue as I am forty albeit inexperienced as an Instructor.
I dont think the training in itself necessarily need amending the PPL has been almost this way for years and in general seems to be adequate .
It is the attitude that some are holier than thou that gets people hurt and not particularly lack of or standard of training .
Im sure EASA will stir the pot a bit more and come up with all manner of amendments allegedly for our benefit , the IMC being the hot potato.
I have never liked the hour building instructors and think that very few make good ones , there wikll be obvious exceptions .
If I am found wanting as an instructor in the early days I can only hope I will improve with experience , honest feedback from trial lessons and group checks are always invited .
I do however see a few guys whom Im happy to say I will not be emulating
Dancing with the devil, going with the flow... it's all a game to me.
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Flying is a fantastic leveller. If you can get hold of this months Flight Training News then read James McBrides article - someone of his level of experience is still finding new skills to aquire and new strings to his bow within aviation - and every time he goes into the classroom he admits it's as though he's back in short trousers!
Those quiet ones with the humble attitudes are usually the ones worth listening to but alas, in aviation as with any walk of life it's the stupid ones who have the loudest voices.
VFE.
Those quiet ones with the humble attitudes are usually the ones worth listening to but alas, in aviation as with any walk of life it's the stupid ones who have the loudest voices.
VFE.
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Flying, much more than most things, is so much a question of "yeah, seen that a dozen times before, no big deal, here's what you do". Being taught by someone with barely more hours than yourself - I just don't see it.
