R.T.F.P......please.
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I've never understood the point of PPR. The Americans manage perfectly well without it.
7th June 2009 20:13
7th June 2009 20:13
We may not have parking / fuel / etc available!
We may not be a designated point of entry and customs wont let you land.
You may have called with a "hello this is me" and only when I've written out your details on the transit strip do you then tell me at the end of your transmission that you are inbound! I then have to write out another (so Tower has all the right details). IF I am busy with traffic I WAS expecting, this is a low priority task so you may find yourself orbiting until such a time as it is done and TWR has the appropriate safety aide-memoir (strip). Your call really - PPPPPP and all that.
Had a guy call with 3nm to run - non PPR last week -
I hope he enjoyed the wait
However - biscuits normally iron out the problems
Last edited by ATCO Fred; 15th Jun 2009 at 14:18.
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Fred, I know this is an old thread but I hadn't spotted your reply before now. I'm afraid this attitude, complete with finger-wagging emoticon, typifies everything that is wrong with GA in the UK, and which would never be tolerated in the States where ATC and the aviation infrastructure in general exists to serve pilots, not the other way around. Why exactly are you so pleased about having delayed someone's landing?
US airfields cope perfectly well with unannounced arrivals, from all directions, whether they want fuel or not (their look out). Why can't it work here?
US airfields cope perfectly well with unannounced arrivals, from all directions, whether they want fuel or not (their look out). Why can't it work here?
I went solo in a glider in 1957. I did my PPL on Tiger Moths in 1958. I retired three years ago at the age of 65 having spent 46 years flying professionally and I have been flying light aircraft ever since.
Perhaps I am very old-fashioned but I always, always WITHOUT FAIL call my proposed destination by telephone (whether PPR is required or not) and ask if they are receiving visitors, and if so, is there anything that I need to know that is not listed in my Pooleys. It doesn't matter if I have already been there 50 times.
I always used to teach my students "The Principle of The 6Ps" - "Prior Planning Prevents P*ss Poor Performance".
How much does a quick phone call cost you compared to the imperial horlicks that you can make of yourself if you arrive unprepared and screw it up?
Perhaps I am very old-fashioned but I always, always WITHOUT FAIL call my proposed destination by telephone (whether PPR is required or not) and ask if they are receiving visitors, and if so, is there anything that I need to know that is not listed in my Pooleys. It doesn't matter if I have already been there 50 times.
I always used to teach my students "The Principle of The 6Ps" - "Prior Planning Prevents P*ss Poor Performance".
How much does a quick phone call cost you compared to the imperial horlicks that you can make of yourself if you arrive unprepared and screw it up?
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I agree proper preparation is essential, indeed it's a legal requirement. But there are plenty of ways of ensuring you are properly briefed on the essentials without having to contact the airfield directly. It's the concept of needing permission to visit an airfield that I find baffling. The onus for proper preparation is on the pilot, and if it turns out that the airfield is closed that day, or there is no fuel, well that's our own look out isn't it? GA in this country is all about enforcement and the requesting and granting of permission rather than pilot responsibility. As I said earlier, it works well in the US and I've yet to see anything this country does better than the Americans when it comes to GA.
I agree proper preparation is essential, indeed it's a legal requirement. But there are plenty of ways of ensuring you are properly briefed on the essentials without having to contact the airfield directly. It's the concept of needing permission to visit an airfield that I find baffling. The onus for proper preparation is on the pilot, and if it turns out that the airfield is closed that day, or there is no fuel, well that's our own look out isn't it? GA in this country is all about enforcement and the requesting and granting of permission rather than pilot responsibility. As I said earlier, it works well in the US and I've yet to see anything this country does better than the Americans when it comes to GA.
I fly from a strip which is on the site of a wartime airfield. We're non radio, PPR only. On one day per year, we DO NOT FLY, because there is a service of remembrance there for many who died from there in a particular WW2 operation.
You don't phone, you don't know - you cause unnecessary offence by landing in the middle of the service. Not on.
(I have actually been on the strip there on a flying day to see a microlight land, pilot get out, pee in full sight of everybody by the side of the runway, then get back in and fly off without any courtesies at-all. That wasn't on either.)
It is reasonable to ask a landowner / airfield operator for permission to land on their runway if they want you to - it's not public land. This is about pilot responsibility.
Anyhow, there are certainly PPR only airfields in the US, many of them - a lot of the residential airparks for example. So far as I know, the locals respect this, as should we here.
And in both countries, PPR is for a minority, not majority of airfields - if the requirement offends you, fly somewhere else!
G
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Last time I flew to Shoreham, I called by phone for PPR and a charming young chap said "No need we're not PPR" and blow me he was right.
Called up 10 out and was handled amongst a few others effortlesly. For a moment I thought I was back in Florida.
Sir George Cayley
Called up 10 out and was handled amongst a few others effortlesly. For a moment I thought I was back in Florida.
Sir George Cayley
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Peter
Those that know me will testify that 99.99% of the time I will bend over backwards to provide the best service available - I'm often on the other end.
BUT....in the scenario stated it was the (sometimes seen) it's only me in the sky attitude of said individual (late call and non adherence to airport procedures and more) which created a scenario that was pretty much a fait accomplis to safety being compromised. Yes, I could have let him wing it into the busy circuit but I work as a team with my TWR controller and I would not do that to him/her.
As to this
I rather see it as this - ensuring safety within the aerodrome is maintained at all times EVEN when individuals attempt to 'short-cut' the system/regulations which may be of benefit to themselves but inconvenience to others. And if that means they get a then so be it....a bit of tough love is good for the soul every once in a while!
PPR/ High Viz and a plethora of other issues cited as a minor annoyance to GA.......I just don't bloody get it. There is so much effort put in to whinging or non compliance when in reality it's easier/less stress to just obey the RULES.
Those that know me will testify that 99.99% of the time I will bend over backwards to provide the best service available - I'm often on the other end.
BUT....in the scenario stated it was the (sometimes seen) it's only me in the sky attitude of said individual (late call and non adherence to airport procedures and more) which created a scenario that was pretty much a fait accomplis to safety being compromised. Yes, I could have let him wing it into the busy circuit but I work as a team with my TWR controller and I would not do that to him/her.
As to this
I'm afraid this attitude, complete with finger-wagging emoticon, typifies everything that is wrong with GA in the UK
then so be it....a bit of tough love is good for the soul every once in a while! PPR/ High Viz and a plethora of other issues cited as a minor annoyance to GA.......I just don't bloody get it. There is so much effort put in to whinging or non compliance when in reality it's easier/less stress to just obey the RULES.
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I've never understood the point of PPR. The Americans manage perfectly well without it.
Life's too short for ironing
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Americans tend not to have small fields, which is how they manage perfectly well without it.
Have you ever flown here? What constitutes a small field? GA thrives because of small airports here. Where did you get pull that comment from?
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Phoning ahead is a very very good idea. It is amazing how often you will find out a key bit of information which changes your plan. It is always good to ask if there are any special procedures in place and are the details in the guide right. On one occasion I arrived at a northern airfield walked into the café to be greeted by a torrent of abuse from the CFI for not following the new noise abatement procedure. Pointing out that I had checked the details on the phone two hours previously and been told they were correct, got me an apology and a “free” lunch! The procedures had been changed for some weeks but the receptionist on duty had been on holiday and did not know, nothing in NOTAMS, so no way of finding out.
Rod1
Rod1
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Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat? Have you ever flown here? What constitutes a small field? GA thrives because of small airports here. Where did you get pull that comment from?
Unfortunately, no, I haven't flown there. But what constitutes a small (or potentially hazardous field, to the uninitiated) might be the likes of the one I quoted, EGNF, certainly one of the shortest (if not the shortest) licensed airfields in the U.K. complete with a gradient.
In essence, the point I was making is that PPR is sometimes essential. The tone of your reply seems to suggest that I have caused you some indignation. If this is so , I apologise.
I'm in the "phone for PPR" group but mainly to find out if the coffee machine is working. However an airfield I visit fairly often (that is A/G) always suggests a standard overhead join with which I am happy to comply. However it's surounded by noise sensitive vilages. Surely a good lookout and listening in to the radio traffic to gain a sense of what's going on could make a base-leg or long final "join" a safe alternative. Coupled with the fact that there would be a circuit's worth less noise for the noise sensitive villages?
JW411 is spot on. Nothing beats preparation. Or good old fashioned common courtesy for that matter.
In addition to calling an airfield to book in and check on any pertinent information such as lastest noise abatement procedures/ runway state/ weather/ unusual activities such as aerobatic training in the overhead etc, I highy recommend a visit to Google Earth for the printing of invaluable visual aids.
Regards, jez
In addition to calling an airfield to book in and check on any pertinent information such as lastest noise abatement procedures/ runway state/ weather/ unusual activities such as aerobatic training in the overhead etc, I highy recommend a visit to Google Earth for the printing of invaluable visual aids.
Regards, jez
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I think that a point that's being skimmed over here is the real difficulty that pilots can have complying with published noise abatement proceedures. Many of the noise abatement maps published in flight guides, and on airfields' web sites, lack a distance scale - a stupendous omission!
For instance, a lovely, accomodating, friendly and noise sensitive airfield near the A303 still publishes a noise abatement chart on it's website that not only lacks a scale, but is so compressed as an image that when printed the text is unreadable!
Another case used to be a very welcoming airport in the Welsh borders, where the published unscaled chart involved turning downwind 'avoiding a white house' which was tricky for a stranger who on arrival saw that the entire neighborhood was made up of white houses! This particular airfield now has very detailed 1/2 mil overlays and aerial photos on it's web site, although flight guides probably still have the 'white house' chart.
The problem with a purely visual system is that you avoid one village, school, etc., only to find another straight ahead, and so on, because you missed the intended turning point. And it's not just a UK problem - I was at Big Bear (California) the other day concientously avoiding the schools etc. that dot the local chart when blow me! There's another one looming up, avoided OK, but closer than intended because there are no scales on their chart either.
Given that the charts published in flight guides have to be simplified, I suggest that what's needed on these local charts is a series of range rings. Most pilots will have a GPS to hand and knowing the distance to a complaining village would make it far easier to turn inside or outside of it without having to guess which of many similar looking villages they are referring to. Simple to do and might make a real contribution, rather than just slagging off people who get it wrong. How about it, chaps?
For instance, a lovely, accomodating, friendly and noise sensitive airfield near the A303 still publishes a noise abatement chart on it's website that not only lacks a scale, but is so compressed as an image that when printed the text is unreadable!
Another case used to be a very welcoming airport in the Welsh borders, where the published unscaled chart involved turning downwind 'avoiding a white house' which was tricky for a stranger who on arrival saw that the entire neighborhood was made up of white houses! This particular airfield now has very detailed 1/2 mil overlays and aerial photos on it's web site, although flight guides probably still have the 'white house' chart.
The problem with a purely visual system is that you avoid one village, school, etc., only to find another straight ahead, and so on, because you missed the intended turning point. And it's not just a UK problem - I was at Big Bear (California) the other day concientously avoiding the schools etc. that dot the local chart when blow me! There's another one looming up, avoided OK, but closer than intended because there are no scales on their chart either.
Given that the charts published in flight guides have to be simplified, I suggest that what's needed on these local charts is a series of range rings. Most pilots will have a GPS to hand and knowing the distance to a complaining village would make it far easier to turn inside or outside of it without having to guess which of many similar looking villages they are referring to. Simple to do and might make a real contribution, rather than just slagging off people who get it wrong. How about it, chaps?
Life's too short for ironing
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Noah Z,
Well, best you pack your bags and come over here for some fun flying You'll find a plethora of small and challenging airports even here in the relatively flat Midwest. For some real nail biters tho', try Utah, Idaho and Wyoming or anywhere in the region of the Rockies - no shortage of fun to be had there, all at high altitude.
Well, best you pack your bags and come over here for some fun flying
You'll find a plethora of small and challenging airports even here in the relatively flat Midwest. For some real nail biters tho', try Utah, Idaho and Wyoming or anywhere in the region of the Rockies - no shortage of fun to be had there, all at high altitude.
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I agree with JW411.
I fly corporate helis and aeroplanes and would never go anywhere without PPR, either in my working guise or in my lovely little weekend puddle jumper.
At my home base this week we had a bright spark call up at ten miles straight in with no PPR and obviously no reading of Pooleys or whatever. There were six in the circuit, three holding for approaches and one poor sod (me) just establishing on the ILS. Whoever you were I hope you were awfully polite to the ground ops staff and ATC because you made their lives quite difficult for a while and made the GA community look pretty poor.
When the flight guides and the AIP say PPR then it is beholden on you to obtain it. Just pitching up shows you to be ignorant of basic planning and demonstrates poor airmanship.
The gent at my home base caused at TCAS RA which luckily got sorted very quickly by the lady approach ATC, otherwise I would have been on for a go round and a further approach which at £ 26.43 per minute would have annoyed me a great deal, and my boss even more.
Many of the larger regional airports are looking for excuses to rid themselves of GA. Poor planning and airmanship just adds grist to their mill.
I fly corporate helis and aeroplanes and would never go anywhere without PPR, either in my working guise or in my lovely little weekend puddle jumper.
At my home base this week we had a bright spark call up at ten miles straight in with no PPR and obviously no reading of Pooleys or whatever. There were six in the circuit, three holding for approaches and one poor sod (me) just establishing on the ILS. Whoever you were I hope you were awfully polite to the ground ops staff and ATC because you made their lives quite difficult for a while and made the GA community look pretty poor.
When the flight guides and the AIP say PPR then it is beholden on you to obtain it. Just pitching up shows you to be ignorant of basic planning and demonstrates poor airmanship.
The gent at my home base caused at TCAS RA which luckily got sorted very quickly by the lady approach ATC, otherwise I would have been on for a go round and a further approach which at £ 26.43 per minute would have annoyed me a great deal, and my boss even more.
Many of the larger regional airports are looking for excuses to rid themselves of GA. Poor planning and airmanship just adds grist to their mill.
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PPR/ High Viz and a plethora of other issues cited as a minor annoyance to GA.......I just don't bloody get it. There is so much effort put in to whinging or non compliance when in reality it's easier/less stress to just obey the RULES.