R.T.F.P......please.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Where Dolfie wants me!!!
Posts: 26
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
R.T.F.P......please.
RANT 
ON
Please, when visiting a new aerodrome, can you make sure that you read the Pooleys/AFE/CAA (or whatever flight guide it is you use) VERY CAREFULLY.
On numerous occaisions (and the frequency seems to be increasing) aircraft have flown either striaght into noise abatement areas or flown into CAS or don't fly the correct circuit procedures, altitudes or joins and I can only assume it's because they haven't read the plate. If it states that you should remain west of the M1 or whatever, then that is usually because east of the road is a hotbed for complaints - or controlled airspace.
Residents don't care whether the aircraft is home based or not - all they care about is it's making a noise. When you leave it is the home based clubs have to pick up the complaints.
ATC don't care either....all they know is they have an infringement to deal with.
The local traffic is also put at risk by traffic using inappropriate joins.
Some airfields insist on PPR by phone before arriving. That is usually for a very good reason - because arriving / departing is not as easy as you might think.
If you haven't read your home plate for a while then it may be worthwhile re-reading it just to refresh your memory for your home circuits - there are a few locals who seem to think that the rules are for others.
Noise abatement areas don't go away just because you have a fast aircraft.
RANT OFF
ONPlease, when visiting a new aerodrome, can you make sure that you read the Pooleys/AFE/CAA (or whatever flight guide it is you use) VERY CAREFULLY.
On numerous occaisions (and the frequency seems to be increasing) aircraft have flown either striaght into noise abatement areas or flown into CAS or don't fly the correct circuit procedures, altitudes or joins and I can only assume it's because they haven't read the plate. If it states that you should remain west of the M1 or whatever, then that is usually because east of the road is a hotbed for complaints - or controlled airspace.
Residents don't care whether the aircraft is home based or not - all they care about is it's making a noise. When you leave it is the home based clubs have to pick up the complaints.
ATC don't care either....all they know is they have an infringement to deal with.
The local traffic is also put at risk by traffic using inappropriate joins.
Some airfields insist on PPR by phone before arriving. That is usually for a very good reason - because arriving / departing is not as easy as you might think.
If you haven't read your home plate for a while then it may be worthwhile re-reading it just to refresh your memory for your home circuits - there are a few locals who seem to think that the rules are for others.
Noise abatement areas don't go away just because you have a fast aircraft.
RANT
OFF
A foreign ( literally, different country ) pilot flying a Mooney aircraft read the aerodrome instructions for my home airfield, left hand circuits, but then did a right hand circuit and nearly collected a Turbulent - me - letting down on the 'dead' side. Why ?
The pilot heard one of our 'locals' saving time by joining straight in from a right base, and thought we must have changed the circuit direction.
Reading the manual isn't always infallible - eyes and ears open pls. You canna be tooo carrrreful.
The pilot heard one of our 'locals' saving time by joining straight in from a right base, and thought we must have changed the circuit direction.
Reading the manual isn't always infallible - eyes and ears open pls. You canna be tooo carrrreful.
No sorry, this is all silliness. As Douglas Bader said: rules are to be obeyed by fools and for the guidance of wise men. And I'm captain, so I take the decisions, and I know what's best. PPR is only for students.
For the avoidance of doubt, I'm joking.
Worst experiences I had of "wise men" not taking any notice of rules were PFA Rallies. There was usually a restricted area around it, and a mandatory AIC which you had to follow on approach. When the rally was at Kemble, that included a base leg which avoided overflying Kemble. But sometimes it was hard to get onto final for the stream of "wise men" on long final over Kemble (who had also missed the approach path, holding area etc). On one occasion I spoke to a few pilots when we were booking in. Yes, they'd seen the AIC, but it was too complicated so they hadn't read it.
For the avoidance of doubt, I'm joking.
Worst experiences I had of "wise men" not taking any notice of rules were PFA Rallies. There was usually a restricted area around it, and a mandatory AIC which you had to follow on approach. When the rally was at Kemble, that included a base leg which avoided overflying Kemble. But sometimes it was hard to get onto final for the stream of "wise men" on long final over Kemble (who had also missed the approach path, holding area etc). On one occasion I spoke to a few pilots when we were booking in. Yes, they'd seen the AIC, but it was too complicated so they hadn't read it.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Cambridge, England, EU
Posts: 3,443
Likes: 0
Received 1 Like
on
1 Post
but it was too complicated so they hadn't read it
From time to time I have to say to someone "I've done the job, but I didn't do it by following your procedures because the documentation was too complicated for me to understand and life is too short. Do try to come up with something more sensible next time, there's a good chap".
(FTAOD: I've never done this whilst flying.)
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do not know where you are based, but take a good look at your instructions. If you were a visiting pilot from 200nm away, who does not have an encyclopaedic knowledge of every unmarked building and hill, could you follow them? On many occasions I have tried hard to follow some incomprehensible instructions, which did not seem to match the visible ground features. On landing, I have asked where the “brick works” was (or whatever) only to be told it was demolished two years ago and in any case nobody follows that crap it is too complicated (from an based instructer)! I have had similar conversations on more than one occasion.
Rod1
Rod1
I completely agree that aviation documentation is often needlessly complicated, unintelligible or just plain badly written. And maybe out of date. That's not an excuse for not trying to make sense of it, or asking by phone before hand, or on the radio if you can't find a VRP, or ignoring it because "you know better".
Last edited by FREDAcheck; 7th Jun 2009 at 13:03.
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: London
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I live in North London and have noisy helicopters overhead every hour of the day and night, never mind emergency vehicle sirens screaming down the road.
One does one's best to avoid flying over villages when arriving at a new aerodrome, but really - is there any legal force behind these noise abatement procedures, and why should these folks have protection which people living in urban areas do not? There is no ban on noise lorries, buses, motor bikes, tractors, combine harvesters, bulldozers, army tanks (the list goes on...) passing through these villages.
Keeping a good lookout and going around the circuit the right direction should be the priority - following complicated circuit procedures is secondary. Every time I visit my home aerodrome I find there is something more I am supposed to know. Being 700 feet agl passing over certain powerlines is the latest. Wouldn't it just be ok if I just use my own judgement to avoid them?
One does one's best to avoid flying over villages when arriving at a new aerodrome, but really - is there any legal force behind these noise abatement procedures, and why should these folks have protection which people living in urban areas do not? There is no ban on noise lorries, buses, motor bikes, tractors, combine harvesters, bulldozers, army tanks (the list goes on...) passing through these villages.
Keeping a good lookout and going around the circuit the right direction should be the priority - following complicated circuit procedures is secondary. Every time I visit my home aerodrome I find there is something more I am supposed to know. Being 700 feet agl passing over certain powerlines is the latest. Wouldn't it just be ok if I just use my own judgement to avoid them?
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: uk
Posts: 278
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Perhaps some airfields rules and reg's are a bit complicated, but all you have to do is to ask for clarification beforehand.
Some of the selfish posts by the "it doesn't apply to me club" here are exactly the sort of thing which give NIMBYs perfect ammunition and leads local councils to restrict operations at many aerodromes, which, in turn, leads to the same posters squealing like stuck pigs.
You can't have it both ways.
Some of the selfish posts by the "it doesn't apply to me club" here are exactly the sort of thing which give NIMBYs perfect ammunition and leads local councils to restrict operations at many aerodromes, which, in turn, leads to the same posters squealing like stuck pigs.
You can't have it both ways.
If you visit an airfield, in general you do so with the permission (explicit or implied) of the owner. Now, you could say that you don't need to bother with their rules - you just apply your view of good airmanship. And presumably the owner could say to you that you're not welcome unless you do bother with the rules.
One does one's best to avoid flying over villages when arriving at a new aerodrome, but really - is there any legal force behind these noise abatement procedures,
There is no ban on noise lorries, buses, motor bikes, tractors, combine harvesters, bulldozers, army tanks (the list goes on...) passing through these villages.
Keeping a good lookout and going around the circuit the right direction should be the priority - following complicated circuit procedures is secondary.
Every time I visit my home aerodrome I find there is something more I am supposed to know. Being 700 feet agl passing over certain powerlines is the latest. Wouldn't it just be ok if I just use my own judgement to avoid them?
I think there's a balance to be struck here. Airmanship comes first, of course. But it's quite reasonable to minimise interference with others, and to say that just because you live in a noisy area, then others have to put up with noise is a bit selfish. Sometimes local procedures are a bit complicated, and I've certainly not always followed them at airfields I'm not familiar with. But I do try. Why is that a problem? I really don't get this attitude of "I've got a perfect right to annoy the heck out of other people, and I'm going to". Live and let live.
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London
Age: 71
Posts: 339
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Sadly selfishness rules in this country. Laws never mind simple consideration doesn't figure in the behaviour of most it seems. Loud talking on mobiles on public transport, buzzing earphones on the tube, cyclists riding on pavements etc etc. Thankfully this is not the general attitude in GA. Let's keep it that way!
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: London
Posts: 247
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
FredaCheck
Not my attitude at all! Good neighbourliness gets my vote indeed.
I'm just pointing out firstly, that small airfields have more than their fair share of criticism in regards to noise, when generally noise issues are just ignored (I don't recall ever seeing a ban on heavy vehicles in any UK village high street) and secondly that in most cases circuit procedures are not far removed from a standard pattern applied with a bit of common sense. Deviations from the standard, such as no overhead join or a lower than usual circuit height are to be noted of course.
Not my attitude at all! Good neighbourliness gets my vote indeed.
I'm just pointing out firstly, that small airfields have more than their fair share of criticism in regards to noise, when generally noise issues are just ignored (I don't recall ever seeing a ban on heavy vehicles in any UK village high street) and secondly that in most cases circuit procedures are not far removed from a standard pattern applied with a bit of common sense. Deviations from the standard, such as no overhead join or a lower than usual circuit height are to be noted of course.
Last edited by Molesworth 1; 8th Jun 2009 at 09:40.
Molesworth,
Noted, and sorry to have misunderstood you. I quite agree that small airfields are often unreasonably criticised, often by NIMBY-ist locals that moved in long after the airfield started operating. Nonetheless, I do what I can to follow locally agreed noise minimisation procedures.
Noted, and sorry to have misunderstood you. I quite agree that small airfields are often unreasonably criticised, often by NIMBY-ist locals that moved in long after the airfield started operating. Nonetheless, I do what I can to follow locally agreed noise minimisation procedures.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hotel this week, hotel next week, home whenever...
Posts: 1,492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Airfield plates...
Yep, agree with the OP.
Despite a clear paragraph in Pooleys for our airfield to say 'Remain east of the dual carraigeway ' or ' Fly over the lakes to avoid overflying the HOSPITAL' some eidjet still couldn't manage that today.
With regards to "too complicated...." well, if you can't understand it then phone first. It isn't hard.
DD
Despite a clear paragraph in Pooleys for our airfield to say 'Remain east of the dual carraigeway ' or ' Fly over the lakes to avoid overflying the HOSPITAL' some eidjet still couldn't manage that today.
With regards to "too complicated...." well, if you can't understand it then phone first. It isn't hard.
DD
On a similar subject, I was gobsmacked by the lack of understanding of CAP413 by a pilot visiting an international airport today. I can appreciate that some people will fly from farm strips and therefore have little experience of more complex aerodromes, but surely it can't escape you that certain items have to read back, and that you can't take off without a clearance!
A pilot with little or no experience of different operations or receiving an air traffic service is obviously forgivable, but could at least help his/herself by familiarising themselves with the AIP. This could not be said of the person who scared me today.
Cheers,
Ginger
ETA: It now appears that this was a non-english speaking pilot with a non-pilot R/T operator
. Airfield layouts pale in comparison to that nightmare.
A pilot with little or no experience of different operations or receiving an air traffic service is obviously forgivable, but could at least help his/herself by familiarising themselves with the AIP. This could not be said of the person who scared me today.
Cheers,
Ginger
ETA: It now appears that this was a non-english speaking pilot with a non-pilot R/T operator
. Airfield layouts pale in comparison to that nightmare.
Last edited by Gingerbread Man; 14th Jun 2009 at 22:03.