Gliding as alternative to Power
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Put1992, abroad is not necessarily better, partly because foreign clubs which are set up for UK visitors tend to be in the more extreme gliding conditions (mountain flying, long cross-country flights etc.). As someone else wrote, you probably only get the benefit of visiting those places if you're already quite experienced.
I see you're in Birmingham, and if that's England and not Alabama you're within a 1 hour drive of a number of clubs - see "Find a Club" on Welcome to the British Gliding Association.
Most will fly only at weekends and a mid-week day (usually Wednesdays), but some fly week round during the Summer. Of those near Birmingham the closest are Stratford, Bicester (the BGA training centre I recall) and Shenington down the A40, the Gliding Centre as Husbands Bosworth (near M6/M1 junction) and Midland on the Long Mynd. Any of these would be good candidates for learning.
I'd suggest the best approach would be to make a visit or two to likely places (maybe midweek if your'e thinking of doing this intensively, as weekends are much busier and run differently) to get a feel for the club. Chat to the people there, and go for the one which seems most comfortable - some clubs are highly organised, others informal, and you need to be comfortable with your training environment as you'll be doing it by the day.
Of these I'd say Midland at the Mynd is the most awkward to learn at because it's a hilltop site which will present more challenging conditions. On the other hand, once you can fly there the flatland sites will seem easy.
For a club you can fly at once or twice a week until you've learn't (bearing in mind that after 12 years I'm still learning and expect to do so until I stop flying) Stratford or Shenington have a strong club feel. I only know the Gliding Centre and Bicester by reputation, but I'd say those might be the most structured if you want to make a continuous course over some weeks.
Bear in mind that a week would probably get you solo if you already have a PPL, given good weather, but that you need to be rather more experienced before you can say that you're also "qualified" as a glider pilot (see my previous post).
The other advice I'd give is to tell the club that you're a PPL - this will spare you the tedium of basic effects of controls, and will also alert the instructor to the kinds of thing to watch out for (particularly non-use of rudder and flaring too high and too vigorously).
In comparison with power it's pretty cheap to try - Stratford will give you a winch-launched trial lesson for £50, as will Shenington, and the others will launch you by aerotow for £75-£90.
I see you're in Birmingham, and if that's England and not Alabama you're within a 1 hour drive of a number of clubs - see "Find a Club" on Welcome to the British Gliding Association.
Most will fly only at weekends and a mid-week day (usually Wednesdays), but some fly week round during the Summer. Of those near Birmingham the closest are Stratford, Bicester (the BGA training centre I recall) and Shenington down the A40, the Gliding Centre as Husbands Bosworth (near M6/M1 junction) and Midland on the Long Mynd. Any of these would be good candidates for learning.
I'd suggest the best approach would be to make a visit or two to likely places (maybe midweek if your'e thinking of doing this intensively, as weekends are much busier and run differently) to get a feel for the club. Chat to the people there, and go for the one which seems most comfortable - some clubs are highly organised, others informal, and you need to be comfortable with your training environment as you'll be doing it by the day.
Of these I'd say Midland at the Mynd is the most awkward to learn at because it's a hilltop site which will present more challenging conditions. On the other hand, once you can fly there the flatland sites will seem easy.
For a club you can fly at once or twice a week until you've learn't (bearing in mind that after 12 years I'm still learning and expect to do so until I stop flying) Stratford or Shenington have a strong club feel. I only know the Gliding Centre and Bicester by reputation, but I'd say those might be the most structured if you want to make a continuous course over some weeks.
Bear in mind that a week would probably get you solo if you already have a PPL, given good weather, but that you need to be rather more experienced before you can say that you're also "qualified" as a glider pilot (see my previous post).
The other advice I'd give is to tell the club that you're a PPL - this will spare you the tedium of basic effects of controls, and will also alert the instructor to the kinds of thing to watch out for (particularly non-use of rudder and flaring too high and too vigorously).
In comparison with power it's pretty cheap to try - Stratford will give you a winch-launched trial lesson for £50, as will Shenington, and the others will launch you by aerotow for £75-£90.
In comparison with power it's pretty cheap to try - Stratford will give you a winch-launched trial lesson for £50, as will Shenington, and the others will launch you by aerotow for £75-£90.
Gliding Clubs who charge these outrageous prices for a genuine "trial lesson", rather than a jolly, and not going to get many new members.
UV
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I'd forgotten what fun it was!
Had my first proper day's gliding for 14 years today and Wow! what fun!!!
I last soloed a glider in 1989 and last flew one in 1995 (except for a passenger flight last week). Today I turned up at Parham in time to help pull out the gliders, and the Falke SF25C motor glider. I always used to be the first on the field, but these days I have kids to drop off at school and other commitments. Anyway, first off, I went for a flight in the Falke to have a site check. I'm a current TMG pilot, but the T31m was a different beast altogether and used to climb ... unlike the poor old Falke that sort of slowly levitates! Anyway that bit went well and just a couple of circuits to prove I wasn't having a lucky day is all that's needed for a sign off. I then did a stint on the log, and before I knew it, it was my time to fly in a glider. They've changed a bit since I was flying them. Most of my gliding in the 80's was in fabric covered gliders such as K13's, so the modern glass ones were quite stunning in comparison (though I have to admit, I still love the older ones!). The launch was by aero tow, and was again the first since the 80's. I can't believe how well it went! No instructor intevention, but boy! was it taxing! I was sweating by the time we released at 2500'. Everything just seemed to fall into place, and I relly felt relaxed and in perfect control. I thought I'd been "enginalised" after all these years, but no! I really did feel at home
.
My instructor has signed my old and very tatty log with a great comment saying that all I need are a couple of "eventuality" checks before re-solo! I think he's being gracious, and that I had a good day ... But hey! What a day!
If you've never flown gliders, or are thinking of returning .... I can't recommend it enough. I'd honestly forgotten what fun it was!!!!
SS
I last soloed a glider in 1989 and last flew one in 1995 (except for a passenger flight last week). Today I turned up at Parham in time to help pull out the gliders, and the Falke SF25C motor glider. I always used to be the first on the field, but these days I have kids to drop off at school and other commitments. Anyway, first off, I went for a flight in the Falke to have a site check. I'm a current TMG pilot, but the T31m was a different beast altogether and used to climb ... unlike the poor old Falke that sort of slowly levitates! Anyway that bit went well and just a couple of circuits to prove I wasn't having a lucky day is all that's needed for a sign off. I then did a stint on the log, and before I knew it, it was my time to fly in a glider. They've changed a bit since I was flying them. Most of my gliding in the 80's was in fabric covered gliders such as K13's, so the modern glass ones were quite stunning in comparison (though I have to admit, I still love the older ones!). The launch was by aero tow, and was again the first since the 80's. I can't believe how well it went! No instructor intevention, but boy! was it taxing! I was sweating by the time we released at 2500'. Everything just seemed to fall into place, and I relly felt relaxed and in perfect control. I thought I'd been "enginalised" after all these years, but no! I really did feel at home
.My instructor has signed my old and very tatty log with a great comment saying that all I need are a couple of "eventuality" checks before re-solo! I think he's being gracious, and that I had a good day ... But hey! What a day!
If you've never flown gliders, or are thinking of returning .... I can't recommend it enough. I'd honestly forgotten what fun it was!!!!
SS
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"Well that is about £500 per hour for a winch launch flight (average flight 6 mins) and about £ 360 per hour for an aerotow (average flight 15 mins) ....what you mean its pretty cheap??"
Where do you come up with the "15 minutes average flight" ?
That would only be in a "zero lift condition" sky, and is hardly the "average"
Where do you come up with the "15 minutes average flight" ?
That would only be in a "zero lift condition" sky, and is hardly the "average"
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BGA clubs can only sell trial memberships, not trial flights. If it's a one-off treat for Grandma, it's a good earner for the club; if you're serious about learning to fly, the included 3 months* membership is very good value.
Edward
*usually 3, sometimes 1, check with the club.
Edward
*usually 3, sometimes 1, check with the club.
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TMG Rating
Have you considered going down the Touring motor glider router? This way you will considerably lower your hourly costs at 12litres/hour, just need to find a share to join as clubs tend to charge extortionate rates per hour relatively.
Once you have your TMG rating you can then also keep your SEP rating alive, whilst learning gliding skills.
All the best and safe flying
Once you have your TMG rating you can then also keep your SEP rating alive, whilst learning gliding skills.
All the best and safe flying
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Cost of gliding
From my days on a gliding club committee, we always calculated the cost of a trial lesson to ensure there was no "profit" margin over and above normal membership costs. Thus a typical winch trial lesson might be two launches + 1 month's membership. If annual membership is £480, £40 of the cost is membership fees, and the remainder the launch cost, say £15, total £55.
Calculating hourly costs is not as simple as with power flying, because the launch cost is fixed regardless of flight time. I'm currently averaging about £15 per hour in launch costs this year, but that ignores my club membership and the cost of owning my own glider.
I used to reckon that flying a club glider for 30 hours per year, once solo and soaring, cost me in total about £1,250 in today's money, or £40-ish per hour. But it's not a linear rate. If as sole owner of a glider I fly only 10 hours per year, that will cost me over £200 per hour. If I fly 100 hours, it will only cost me about £30 per hour. If I make 200 hours (no chance because of work) I'll be below £20 per hour. This is all aerotow launching - winch launching is cheaper if you are good at picking the right time to launch and are good at connecting with that first thermal.
To give a real example, in 2006-7 I flew around 50 hours at a total cost of about £2,000, including the running costs of owning the glider. If I'd syndicated the glider with one other person and flown the same number of hours, my costs would have dropped to around £1,500.
If you really wanted to fly on the cheap, you could buy an older wooden glider for £1,500, but your annual insurance, maintenance costs and club membership would still be around £1k. 20 winch launches would cost you around £350 edit: correction, £150], and if you picked your days and soared from each flight you could do 100 hours - £13.50 [edit: correction, £11.50] per hour. I'd be impressed if anyone got lower than this.
The bottom line is that gliding is comparatively cheap (per hour) if you do enough of it. Or more accurately, for a budget over £1,500 p.a. you can do more hours than flying power.
Calculating hourly costs is not as simple as with power flying, because the launch cost is fixed regardless of flight time. I'm currently averaging about £15 per hour in launch costs this year, but that ignores my club membership and the cost of owning my own glider.
I used to reckon that flying a club glider for 30 hours per year, once solo and soaring, cost me in total about £1,250 in today's money, or £40-ish per hour. But it's not a linear rate. If as sole owner of a glider I fly only 10 hours per year, that will cost me over £200 per hour. If I fly 100 hours, it will only cost me about £30 per hour. If I make 200 hours (no chance because of work) I'll be below £20 per hour. This is all aerotow launching - winch launching is cheaper if you are good at picking the right time to launch and are good at connecting with that first thermal.
To give a real example, in 2006-7 I flew around 50 hours at a total cost of about £2,000, including the running costs of owning the glider. If I'd syndicated the glider with one other person and flown the same number of hours, my costs would have dropped to around £1,500.
If you really wanted to fly on the cheap, you could buy an older wooden glider for £1,500, but your annual insurance, maintenance costs and club membership would still be around £1k. 20 winch launches would cost you around £350 edit: correction, £150], and if you picked your days and soared from each flight you could do 100 hours - £13.50 [edit: correction, £11.50] per hour. I'd be impressed if anyone got lower than this.
The bottom line is that gliding is comparatively cheap (per hour) if you do enough of it. Or more accurately, for a budget over £1,500 p.a. you can do more hours than flying power.
Last edited by ProfChrisReed; 4th Jun 2009 at 15:29.
Where do you come up with the "15 minutes average flight" ?
These trial lessons are a "jolly" and invariably a one off, so people pay for it on that basis.
In comparison with power it's pretty cheap to try - Stratford will give you a winch-launched trial lesson for £50, as will Shenington, and the others will launch you by aerotow for £75-£90.
20 winch launches would cost you around £350,
UV
mstram..Just seen you are in Canada ...maybe its different there!
Last edited by UV; 4th Jun 2009 at 00:46.
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"Well that is about £500 per hour for a winch launch flight (average flight 6 mins) and about £ 360 per hour for an aerotow (average flight 15 mins) ....what you mean its pretty cheap??"
And the per minute charges are capped at £60, so the maximum cost for a winch flight is £67 and an aerotow £83.30.
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How common are group operated gliders in the UK?
What is the split between equity and non-equity groups?
In a typical club, how is the "flying programme" determined -for example how is the tug time split between club owned gliders and privately owned gliders?
Thanks in advance
FS
What is the split between equity and non-equity groups?
In a typical club, how is the "flying programme" determined -for example how is the tug time split between club owned gliders and privately owned gliders?
Thanks in advance
FS
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Most gliders are privately owned, and most of those are in what you call equity groups (usually termed glider syndicates in our world). A smaller number, but growing, are single ownership.
Non-equity shares are unusual, but not entirely unknown. They typically arise when a glider is doing less flying that it could and its owner allows one or two friends to share by paying a share only of annual running costs. I never heard of anyone setting up such an arrangement as a way of starting a syndicate. Don’t rely upon finding one if you plan to take up gliding. Clubs are in effect large non-equity groups, and that is the route for people who can afford the costs on a day to day basis but not a capital investment. Almost all clubs have one or more single seat gliders for this purpose.
A flying programme as you ask does not exist. For people wanting to fly club gliders, there is usually a daily list – first come first served. A few clubs have a booking system. I never heard of any club allocating tow capacity between private and club gliders. It just doesn’t work that way. There have been times when so many people want launches that a period of priority is given to club gliders by pushing them to the front of the queue when they land, and other times when a cross country group, especially a competition start, is given priority. Otherwise, most places launch in the order gliders arrive at the launch point.
HTH. ChrisN.
Non-equity shares are unusual, but not entirely unknown. They typically arise when a glider is doing less flying that it could and its owner allows one or two friends to share by paying a share only of annual running costs. I never heard of anyone setting up such an arrangement as a way of starting a syndicate. Don’t rely upon finding one if you plan to take up gliding. Clubs are in effect large non-equity groups, and that is the route for people who can afford the costs on a day to day basis but not a capital investment. Almost all clubs have one or more single seat gliders for this purpose.
A flying programme as you ask does not exist. For people wanting to fly club gliders, there is usually a daily list – first come first served. A few clubs have a booking system. I never heard of any club allocating tow capacity between private and club gliders. It just doesn’t work that way. There have been times when so many people want launches that a period of priority is given to club gliders by pushing them to the front of the queue when they land, and other times when a cross country group, especially a competition start, is given priority. Otherwise, most places launch in the order gliders arrive at the launch point.
HTH. ChrisN.
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Most gliders are privately owned, and most of those are in what you call equity groups (usually termed glider syndicates in our world). A smaller number, but growing, are single ownership.
With single ownership you always have to make arrangements before every flight just in case this happens.
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To add, an important reason for sharing the ownership, but also the operation of a glider between (at least) two persons is to have somebody on the ground to come and fetch you with the trailer if you land "out".
With single ownership you always have to make arrangements before every flight just in case this happens.
With single ownership you always have to make arrangements before every flight just in case this happens.
If I happen to be around I usually happily go and get anyone who has landed out although I don't own any of their glider as that's what I'd like to happen when I land out. Currently I've helped retrieve more gliders than I've had landouts.
Whilst there are probably more syndicated gliders at my club than singly-owned, the ones with a single owner generally do more hours per year. They are the gliders more likely to be taken on expeditions and flown XC.
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I've often thought that the best syndicate would be two gliders between four partners, or maybe three between six. It's rare to see more than half the club members, even on a good day. Intuitively, that kind of syndicate would seem to almost guarantee availability except on the most glorious of days, obvious some time in advance.
Retrieves have never been a problem - glider pilots seem to quite like helping each other out, and the promise of beer is always effective. Lack of a pre-agreed crew is more a psychological barrier than anything else; since I made rigging gear which allows me to rig and derig solo, I've realised that my fall-back option is to hitch/taxi/train back and then fetch the aircraft myself. I've never had to do this, but the knowledge that I could has let me set off XC much more often than previously. I have a dream 500k planned - Rougham (Suffolk)-Sarnesfield (Herefordshire)-Rougham, most of the width of England out and return. If the right day turns up I'm going for it, crew or not, and will write off the following day in advance.
Retrieves have never been a problem - glider pilots seem to quite like helping each other out, and the promise of beer is always effective. Lack of a pre-agreed crew is more a psychological barrier than anything else; since I made rigging gear which allows me to rig and derig solo, I've realised that my fall-back option is to hitch/taxi/train back and then fetch the aircraft myself. I've never had to do this, but the knowledge that I could has let me set off XC much more often than previously. I have a dream 500k planned - Rougham (Suffolk)-Sarnesfield (Herefordshire)-Rougham, most of the width of England out and return. If the right day turns up I'm going for it, crew or not, and will write off the following day in advance.
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To add, an important reason for sharing the ownership, but also the operation of a glider between (at least) two persons is to have somebody on the ground to come and fetch you with the trailer if you land "out".
With single ownership you always have to make arrangements before every flight just in case this happens.
With single ownership you always have to make arrangements before every flight just in case this happens.
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Scheme and membership
Some gliding clubs within the UK have various schemes. You buy a membership and a scheme, you pay X amount of money (prices differ from club to club), and thats it you work through your scheme and then you top up... job done., however there is a slight draw back, I know from experience with flying K13, K21, K7s ect that your only up about 7 or 8 mins, which is great... just what you need. I learned a lot from "up round & down flights. 
however you could find yourself towards the end of the year with too many hours left on your scheme and not enough time to get the scheme finished, thus you could end up loosing money 
Afterwards why don't you consider getting a taildraggers licence, and go tugging. (just an idea for you to think about)
I sincerely hope this helps you and wish the very best of luck in flying gliders.
Regards SPMCUK
, however there is a slight draw back, I know from experience with flying K13, K21, K7s ect that your only up about 7 or 8 mins, which is great... just what you need. I learned a lot from "up round & down flights. however you could find yourself towards the end of the year with too many hours left on your scheme and not enough time to get the scheme finished, thus you could end up loosing money Afterwards why don't you consider getting a taildraggers licence, and go tugging. (just an idea for you to think about)
I sincerely hope this helps you and wish the very best of luck in flying gliders.
Regards SPMCUK
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Powered flying and gliding are pretty much the same cost if you include the hours of labour required. Powered flight involves getting in aircraft and flying it, gliding involves pushing aircraft, launching others, keeping logs, and generally working hard. The balance for this work is made up with the financial cost, gliding is cheaper. Add to this hard work the benefit of good camaraderie and increased fitness and make your choice.
Many power pilots will be surprised at the level of experience amongst the gliding instructor community and their ability as airmen/airwomen in plain and simple airmanship. Aerobatics is not uncommon and spinning is regularly practiced!
So if your dream is centred on the idea of flying long straight legs in an aircraft with autopilot and glass cockpit, all whilst talking professionally to controllers ('cause I hear they give you better clearances then) and following complex procedures then gliding is not for you. Oh and with power you get the chance to go around from a screwed up approach too.
However if you just like flying for flying's sake and if your dream is to be thermalling with a bird of prey on your wingtip, respecting the dynamics of our atmosphere and generally marvelling in the joy of silent flight and the beauty of our world, then gliding might be for you.
I particularly recommend the few moments of quiet elation that overtakes you after your glider rolls to a halt after the landing run, when you are on your own in silence (unless there are skylarks) awaiting the retrieve crew; now that is what I call contentment. Try it....
Jim - who came to gliding early and late......
Many power pilots will be surprised at the level of experience amongst the gliding instructor community and their ability as airmen/airwomen in plain and simple airmanship. Aerobatics is not uncommon and spinning is regularly practiced!
So if your dream is centred on the idea of flying long straight legs in an aircraft with autopilot and glass cockpit, all whilst talking professionally to controllers ('cause I hear they give you better clearances then) and following complex procedures then gliding is not for you. Oh and with power you get the chance to go around from a screwed up approach too.
However if you just like flying for flying's sake and if your dream is to be thermalling with a bird of prey on your wingtip, respecting the dynamics of our atmosphere and generally marvelling in the joy of silent flight and the beauty of our world, then gliding might be for you.
I particularly recommend the few moments of quiet elation that overtakes you after your glider rolls to a halt after the landing run, when you are on your own in silence (unless there are skylarks) awaiting the retrieve crew; now that is what I call contentment. Try it....
Jim - who came to gliding early and late......
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Something else not always considered by the power fraternity (whose sole calculation seems to be in £ per flying hour) is that glider pilots have more fun per hour - soaring, ridge running, wave flying, aerobatics, competition flying, spot landings, field landings, expeditions, etc. etc.