Gliding as alternative to Power
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Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Daventry
Gliding as alternative to Power
Due to vastly reduced working hours,I am looking at ways of keeping my hand in until my earnings are restored and gliding certainly looks like a possibility.
I have 110 hrs SEP-will this help/be credited against attaining a gliding licence?
MM
I have 110 hrs SEP-will this help/be credited against attaining a gliding licence?
MM
Joined: Jul 2007
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From: 51.50N 1W (ish)
At present in UK there is no 'glider pilots licence' as such. Under EASA this is to change.
Any flying experience will help, you may find there are certain habits to 'unlearn'.
Beware - gliding is addictive. Enjoy.
Any flying experience will help, you may find there are certain habits to 'unlearn'.
Beware - gliding is addictive. Enjoy.
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: UK
Your SEP hours might help you in that you are used to being in the air and so on, but you will have to go through the same 'in the air' training as everyone else to get solo, and then to pass the Bronze C flying test. However you should waltz through the Bronze C exam - unless you got your PPL so long ago you've forgotten the written stuff... You will already have an RT licence and be in practise using it, you do PFLs and hopefully your navigation will be fine so getting the XC endorsement should be OK.
Prepare yourself for the relative peace & quiet, for having to use the rudder pedals in the air, for there being (usually) no such thing as level flight and for no go-arounds...
Prepare yourself for the relative peace & quiet, for having to use the rudder pedals in the air, for there being (usually) no such thing as level flight and for no go-arounds...
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Amsterdam
Other things:
- No cleared take-off and a sedate take-off roll. With gliders it's the wingman lowering his arm and you're up and away in less than three seconds. Winch-launching that is.
- Lots of things in metric. Speeds, altitudes.
- A glider needs a lot of hands on the ground before it can be launched and after it has landed. Bring some tough boots - you'll be walking several miles each day retrieving gliders from the landing field and towing them to the take-off field.
- Landing can be mayhem. Everybody looking for a bit of grass inbetween the other gliders to put down. Left, right, center, landing short or over the heads of other gliders doesn't matter. Go-around is not an option.
- Most glider operations are completely non-radio. And as far as peace & quiet is concerned, well, you fly without a headset and flow/wind noise can be loud too.
Also your JAA Class II medical is more stringent than a glider medical, so it can be used instead of a glider medical.
- No cleared take-off and a sedate take-off roll. With gliders it's the wingman lowering his arm and you're up and away in less than three seconds. Winch-launching that is.
- Lots of things in metric. Speeds, altitudes.
- A glider needs a lot of hands on the ground before it can be launched and after it has landed. Bring some tough boots - you'll be walking several miles each day retrieving gliders from the landing field and towing them to the take-off field.
- Landing can be mayhem. Everybody looking for a bit of grass inbetween the other gliders to put down. Left, right, center, landing short or over the heads of other gliders doesn't matter. Go-around is not an option.
- Most glider operations are completely non-radio. And as far as peace & quiet is concerned, well, you fly without a headset and flow/wind noise can be loud too.
Also your JAA Class II medical is more stringent than a glider medical, so it can be used instead of a glider medical.
Joined: May 2005
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From: Suffolk
Just to expand on the lack of specified hours to "qualify". There are a range of "qualifications":
1. Flying solo. This is whenever the instructor thinks you are ready. Power experience might make this quite soon, if you're a good handling pilot.
2. Bronze. There is a requirement of 10 hrs solo or 25 launches (from memory, these numbers might be slightly off), followed by a fairly simple exam and a general flying test which will include launch failures and (from 12 year old memory) a simulated field landing. This is often thought to be the licence equivalent, though it's still very early days.
3. XC endorsement. Field selection training, usually in a motor glider (to allow go-rounds), navigation training (usually the same flight). After this you can fly out of gliding range.
4. Silver: 5hr flight, 1,000m height gain, 50km cross-country flight. With Silver, you're usually accepted as competent at other clubs, though you're likely to be made to take a check flight if you fly somewhere new or want to fly that club's gliders.
5. Gold, Diamonds: for 300km/500km flights, 3,000m/5,000m height gains. These are cumulative.
I'm part way through 5 after 12 years, and soon might rate myself as generally competent.
1. Flying solo. This is whenever the instructor thinks you are ready. Power experience might make this quite soon, if you're a good handling pilot.
2. Bronze. There is a requirement of 10 hrs solo or 25 launches (from memory, these numbers might be slightly off), followed by a fairly simple exam and a general flying test which will include launch failures and (from 12 year old memory) a simulated field landing. This is often thought to be the licence equivalent, though it's still very early days.
3. XC endorsement. Field selection training, usually in a motor glider (to allow go-rounds), navigation training (usually the same flight). After this you can fly out of gliding range.
4. Silver: 5hr flight, 1,000m height gain, 50km cross-country flight. With Silver, you're usually accepted as competent at other clubs, though you're likely to be made to take a check flight if you fly somewhere new or want to fly that club's gliders.
5. Gold, Diamonds: for 300km/500km flights, 3,000m/5,000m height gains. These are cumulative.
I'm part way through 5 after 12 years, and soon might rate myself as generally competent.
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: Pacific
It is more expensive too. You pay for the launch, and some flights might be 15 minutes. Multiply the rate per launch by 3 or 4 to get the equivalent for powered flight.
A glider pilot is a better pilot because she knows how to fly her machine better. Transitioning to powered flight later is a doddle.
A glider pilot is a better pilot because she knows how to fly her machine better. Transitioning to powered flight later is a doddle.
Joined: May 2006
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From: Londonish
I'll pick boofhead up on that; it is definately not more expensive! Yes you pay for the launch, and while you're training the emphasis is on shorter flights (all the hard bits are at the start and the end, let's face it), it's still cheaper. Once you get used to staying up there, it's a lot more cost effective. (I fly/flew both, more powered now). One thing it is expensive in is time however (compared to powered). It's not a turn-the-key exercise, and you need particular conditions to stay up (not all VMC days are necessarily any good for gliding).
It is a somewhat different game, though you'll have a huge headstart, you'll use your feet more, look outside more, and mapread more, rather than doing stuff by the numbers. You'll also get there quicker if you don't turn up with a 'I fly powered, I know it all already' attitude - not suggesting you have that attitude, but I've witnessed the groans at launchpoint when such a pilot arrives/departs
It is a somewhat different game, though you'll have a huge headstart, you'll use your feet more, look outside more, and mapread more, rather than doing stuff by the numbers. You'll also get there quicker if you don't turn up with a 'I fly powered, I know it all already' attitude - not suggesting you have that attitude, but I've witnessed the groans at launchpoint when such a pilot arrives/departs
Joined: Feb 2000
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From: Pacific
You are right, if you fly a glider that has the performance to soar and the conditions allow it, but many flights will be short, especially during the beginning period. I know because my daughter is learning to fly gliders and her instructors do not give her a chance to do soaring, nor are they happy to allow her to solo. Usually there are people waiting their turn and they become disenchanted if they have to wait too long, letting my daughter know after she lands (she is 16 and an easy target).
We fly together using a C150 or C172 and the rate is not too bad. She has soloed both and is working toward her Private, but gliding is her real love.
We fly together using a C150 or C172 and the rate is not too bad. She has soloed both and is working toward her Private, but gliding is her real love.
Joined: Mar 2001
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From: Toronto, Ont, Canada
"I know because my daughter is learning to fly gliders and her instructors do not give her a chance to do soaring, nor are they happy to allow her to solo. Usually there are people waiting their turn and they become disenchanted if they have to wait too long, letting my daughter know after she lands (she is 16 and an easy target)."
I'd say it's time to look for another gliding club
I'd say it's time to look for another gliding club
Joined: Jan 2008
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From: Yorkshire
Are there many incidents with gliders then, accidents etc..? Never seem to hear of any, much like balloons.
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: Toronto
The learning really begins after solo/license
Learning how to find lift and use it effectively; then move on to the next thermal will keep you learning for quite some time. Then there's the cross-countries and occasional farmer visits
I found my first landout a bigger deal than my first solo as you really do have to do quite a bit of thinking for yourself.
Mind you, I look upon a landout as a more sedate affair than a forced landing in power. There's a big difference in time to think things through when you're coming down at 120'/min instead of 800'/min
When the temp is in the 80s, landing out at an airport and getting a aerotow back home is easier than a ground retrieve.
I found my first landout a bigger deal than my first solo as you really do have to do quite a bit of thinking for yourself.
Mind you, I look upon a landout as a more sedate affair than a forced landing in power. There's a big difference in time to think things through when you're coming down at 120'/min instead of 800'/min
When the temp is in the 80s, landing out at an airport and getting a aerotow back home is easier than a ground retrieve.
Joined: Aug 2005
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From: London, UK
Usually there are people waiting their turn and they become disenchanted if they have to wait too long, letting my daughter know after she lands (she is 16 and an easy target).
With landings it's true that you must always be flexible with your eventual touchdown point. Unexpected sink, wind gradient, another glider landing, inattentive persons at the launch point.. but it is taught from the very first circuits that you must always be willing to vary your circuit and touchdown point in response to the environment.
wrt costs- it took me about 60 flights to solo, but a 6 month gap didn't help - you could probably do it in half that if you have the right aptitude. Cost me about £1200 to get that far (all aerotow). Was then another 40 flights before my cross-country endorsement and being allowed to into 'the big world'. It is a bit of a pain to pay £40 for a 20 minute flight on a cold winters' day, but once you start soaring the cost per hour goes down a lot; it would cost me about £90 to take a club glider on a three hour flight; if my club did winch launches that would probably be closer to £60.
Joined: May 2006
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From: Londonish
Boofhead: As others have said, you may need to look around. I did also mention that gliding is time intensive - the waiting around to flying ratio is not so good, which is the main reason I fly mostly powered these days. first love would still be gliding in many ways. Shame on those concerned for venting on a young one - waiting around is frustrating, but even so. Remember however, that generally gliding is run as a club - one cannot turn up and play, one has to take part in all the other stuff that facilites everyone flying - wing running, fetching, etc.
She will still be fitting a lot more flying into less hours in the air, and compared like for like (to hiring from a school), I certainly found it cheaper. And yes, it sounds like she's at the most frustrating part - between early solo and cross country is a pain. Anything will soar however, even the venerable K13's, arguably they'll do better than the modern glass types. Where the older types fall short is when trying to fly faster (i.e. go somewhere in a hurry).
Now to the landings: Approach speeds are usually in the 50's (knots), stall speeds in the 30's, and landing distances in tens of metres. Gliders rarely constrain themselves to runways either. It's bad etiquette to overfly a landed glider unless necessary, generally we go to one side or the other. There are actually rules (IIRC you go right of a landed a/c until there's no more room on the right, but it's been a while).
My point is it may look chaotic, but if you're inside the system, it's predictable, and not half as mad as it may appear to someone who's used to dealing with heavier, stubby winged aircraft, and their attendant performance / constraints
Lastly, a little teaser; in gliding terms a heniously expensive holiday - about 1000ukp for 15hrs sat in a nice duo discus with an equally nice chap in the back to keep me out of trouble (necessary given the environment)... everything thrown in, oxy the lot. Imagine sitting at 15,000, perfectly still air, eerie silence, looking at this:
She will still be fitting a lot more flying into less hours in the air, and compared like for like (to hiring from a school), I certainly found it cheaper. And yes, it sounds like she's at the most frustrating part - between early solo and cross country is a pain. Anything will soar however, even the venerable K13's, arguably they'll do better than the modern glass types. Where the older types fall short is when trying to fly faster (i.e. go somewhere in a hurry).
Now to the landings: Approach speeds are usually in the 50's (knots), stall speeds in the 30's, and landing distances in tens of metres. Gliders rarely constrain themselves to runways either. It's bad etiquette to overfly a landed glider unless necessary, generally we go to one side or the other. There are actually rules (IIRC you go right of a landed a/c until there's no more room on the right, but it's been a while).
My point is it may look chaotic, but if you're inside the system, it's predictable, and not half as mad as it may appear to someone who's used to dealing with heavier, stubby winged aircraft, and their attendant performance / constraints
Lastly, a little teaser; in gliding terms a heniously expensive holiday - about 1000ukp for 15hrs sat in a nice duo discus with an equally nice chap in the back to keep me out of trouble (necessary given the environment)... everything thrown in, oxy the lot. Imagine sitting at 15,000, perfectly still air, eerie silence, looking at this:
Joined: Sep 2006
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From: Birmingham
Lastly, a little teaser; in gliding terms a heniously expensive holiday - about 1000ukp for 15hrs sat in a nice duo discus with an equally nice chap in the back to keep me out of trouble (necessary given the environment)... everything thrown in, oxy the lot. Imagine sitting at 15,000, perfectly still air, eerie silence, looking at this:
I'm looking to do some powered flying abroad at some point, but, for views like your picture, I wouldn't mind doing gliding on top of powered.
Joined: Feb 2007
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From: Amsterdam
Are there any course available abroad where you can learn to glide, say over a week, and make a holiday of it? Or is it best to learn beforehand?
I did one such week at Salland last year and am going to do another one this year. Price is 310 euros for the full weeks course, including 15 winch-launches but excluding insurance, camping fees, breakfast, lunch and dinner.
Beginnersopleiding - Aero Club Salland
The other place in the Netherlands that offers a lot of these packages is Terlet:
Nationaal Zweefvliegcentrum Terlet
Of course, when you come to the Netherlands the dominant language will be Dutch. You need to inform specifically if they're going to be able to accommodate English-speaking students.
Joined: May 2006
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From: Londonish
The folks in Omarama NZ do courses, though if you're going to go that far, I personally would suggest getting the basics first - it would be a pity to be in such an awe inspiring environment, and be focussed on the basics of flying, rather than enjoying the full experience.
There are clubs in aus (gliding club of victoria in benalla) that do intensive courses also.
I don't know about closer to the Uk.
There are clubs in aus (gliding club of victoria in benalla) that do intensive courses also.
I don't know about closer to the Uk.
Joined: May 2007
Aviation Qualifications: PPL
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From: Dark side of the Moon
Are there any course available abroad where you can learn to glide, say over a week, and make a holiday of it?
FBW