What to do if your lost?

[Fuji Abound]

If you are are on instruments, using dual VOR with DME to navigate and receiving a Radar Advisory Service why do you imply that including a GPS in your scan as well is a good way to be spending your time?

Here is a question any one can answer (if they wish).

Your flight deck is glass - you have a screen displaying the instrument approach procedure as a nice magenta line (or if you like your non instrument course as a series of VOR turning points). The autopilot is flying the aircraft. You can either use the dual IFR certified GPS for navigation or you can use the appropriate VORs, but not both - which do you select and why?

(The point being that on many glass panels for primary nav you can do one or the other - although I accept you can monitor a different nav aid on the PDF)

[IO540]

If you are are on instruments, using dual VOR with DME to navigate and receiving a Radar Advisory Service why do you imply that including a GPS in your scan as well is a good way to be spending your time? It it all starts to go pear-shaped or something packs up it will still be there to fall back on. I was responding to the suggestion in a previous post that ADF and VOR are not the instruments to be used for navigation in this situation. I don't agree with the earlier post.

Not sure how you got a RAS since Southampton is Class D and you cannot get an RAS in CAS.

If you were going to land there you would get radar vectors to the ILS, so you fly as directed until localiser established and then track the GS.

Or, if you want practice, you fly the procedural ILS or whatever, and it is 100% legal to use a GPS (in OBS mode, etc) to supplement the VOR information. In the private flight context, the ANO specifies equipment to be carried. No law states what equipment should be used.

If you were merely tracking via SAM then you would get RCS once inside their CAS, and perhaps a RIS outside, although one could go for an RAS too (do you pilot one of the cheap airlines which flies in Class G? - they often ask for a RAS as per their OPS manual). And you can fly via SAM using the VOR info, the GPS (with SAM as a waypoint), or both, as you wish, all 100% legit.

Sensibly, SAM would be tuned in anyway.

[Jim59]

Not sure how you got a RAS since Southampton is Class D and you cannot get an RAS in CAS.

If you were going to land there you would get radar vectors to the ILS, so you fly as directed until localiser established and then track the GS.

Or, if you want practice, you fly the procedural ILS or whatever, and it is 100% legal to use a GPS (in OBS mode, etc) to supplement the VOR information. In the private flight context, the ANO specifies equipment to be carried. No law states what equipment should be used.

Hi,

I had obtained prior permission to fly to S'ton. Shortly after Compton, in IMC, I made contact, requested and received a Radar Advisory Service - which became Radar Control only on entry into the zone. As always I was on my own navigation prior to zone entry. Since I was already more-or-less on the runway-in-use centre-line I elected to do a VOR/DME approach, permission for which was granted so vectors were not necessary.

I believe that by law one is only allowed to fly a 'published' instrument approach. The legality of using a GPS to fly a VOR/DME or ILS approach I leave to others who know the law better to comment on. I guess as long as the VOR is working & correctly set for the approach one could use the GPS as long as the VOR is there as backup if needed.

Anyway, I think we have deviated from the original thread so I shall let it rest.

[Piper.Classique]

I didn't realise my piper cub was mythical, but when I went to look it was still in the hangar where I thought I left it. I don't own a GPS except for the one in the PLB, so I do work with a map and compass. Sure, I've been somewhat lost (the polite euphumism is "uncertain of my position") a few times but always managed to get unlost, usually by all the boring ways that went out of date with the invention of the VOR, sometimes with the help of a QDM or two.
Most controllers of all sorts are pretty keen to help, if you sing out early, before charging through their instrument approach pattern.
To get back to the poster's original point, it's about proper preflight planning preventing piss poor performance. Spend all the time you need to plan on the ground, a lot of planning can be done days before going flying. Once you have your ppl you can invite a more experienced pilot to come along (just make sure to agree who is P1 before you start the engine ) and confirm your nav a few times, he/she can just concentrate on keeping a running position check going and doesn't need to speak up unless you ask for help. Practice really does make perfect, ask your instructor!

As to what you squawk, that is up to your perception of how serious the situation is. It could warrant a mayday call and appropriate transponder code (assuming you have one, I don't) but I suspect that unless there were aggravating factors such as low fuel state or deteriorating weather that might be overkill. A simple pan call would probably be more appropriate in most cases. Get your instructor to show you how the system works with a practice pan, it really does give you confidence that the day you need it, it will work.

PS Handheld GPS is a cheap backup if you want one, but please please please learn to use it on the ground first, not once you are lost, head down in the cockpit reading the manual

Sorry, didn't see you actually had your licence. You can still talk to your instructor though.......

[DaveD]

Thanks very much for your novel point of view--never heard here before. Just so we can put the right weight onto your statement, care to enlighten us as to what your qualifications and level of experience exactly are?

Not to dismiss any truth in your statement out of hand, but it sounds a bit naïve, on the "this is what my instructor told me so it must be true" side. If you care to read a few pages back you will see that it's been mentioned that for your PPL (and CPL) you should be taught to use everything you've got in your aircraft, GPS included. Once you're out there in the big world, a busy arrival at some big airport in IMC in a fast aircraft is really not the time to start mucking about with VORs and ADFs. In real-world flying a GPS will quickly become your best friend, so forget whatever crap your instructor might have fed you.

This from someone who does not use GPS for flying (enough of it on my day job)--I like my steam gauges, and if the place where I end up on looks distinctly unlike my intended destination, well so be it. I fly just for the fun of it and I'm not really that bothered

(Sigh)

Well I'm doing my PPL at the moment, 7 hours solo, first solo nav after 15, in fact, I did it today, this is however irrelevant to this topic. This is about someone who's just passed their PPL, and obviously hasn't been taught properly and wants advice.

I hope to god you never think about becoming an instructor, because it's probably people like you which is the reason that he's come out of his PPL without the simple knowledge of knowing how to get back on track after getting lost. Who said anything about fast aircraft's? I highly doubt someone who's just passed their PPL, and is probably hour building is going to go flying into London Heathrow, unless of course their looking forward to paying a hefty bill.

if the place where I end up on looks distinctly unlike my intended destination, well so be it

That's great advice... just fly to something that looks distinctly correct and everything will be ok and if not, oh well... i've got a GPS. Great advice, really good.

If what your saying is true, that your day job is more than just VFR flying, then i'd have expected a better response.

[Lister Noble]

Now,now girls,nearly bedtime.

[DaveD]

Seriously though? It's an attitude like that, that makes bad pilots, and that's not what we want in our skies..

[what next]

Hello!

It's an attitude like that, that makes bad pilots, and that's not what we want in our skies.

We wouldn't look so good, if there were no bad ones for comparison

Greetings, Max

But seriously: Compass, map & stopwatch navigation is still an important part of the (JAR-) PPL syllabus, both in theory and in practical flying. Even more so in the practical part of the CPL course. Therefore, the necessary skills to get un-lost again should be there in every new PPL holder. However, like many others have said before me, I also would recommend not to get lost in the first place. And the best insurance against getting lost are naviagtion aids such as GPS and VOR. Central Europen airspace is really not the place where you want to be unsure of your position at any moment. And if it ever should happen, call for help _before_ trying to sort out your problem alone. Every second that passes brings you closer to the flight path of an airliner or military aircraft.

[DaveD]

Hello!

Quote:
It's an attitude like that, that makes bad pilots, and that's not what we want in our skies.
We wouldn't look so good, if there were no bad ones for comparison

Greetings, Max

But seriously: Compass, map & stopwatch navigation is still an important part of the (JAR-) PPL syllabus, both in theory and in practical flying. Even more so in the practical part of the CPL course. Therefore, the necessary skills to get un-lost again should be there in every new PPL holder. However, like many others have said before me, I also would recommend not to get lost in the first place. And the best insurance against getting lost are naviagtion aids such as GPS and VOR. Central Europen airspace is really not the place where you want to be unsure of your position at any moment. And if it ever should happen, call for help _before_ trying to sort out your problem alone. Every second that passes brings you closer to the flight path of an airliner or military aircraft.

Definitely, I mean im 23 years old, i'm not against technology, infact I love it, and by all means if you have a GPS and know how to use it then do, but the basics of finding your track should still be known like the back of your hand.. I wouldn't say call for help straight away, if you find yourself lost, pick an area below that you can recognise and orbit it, like a football pitch... then use the methods to get Un-Lost!

[LH2]

Jim,

I believe that by law one is only allowed to fly a 'published' instrument approach

I assume you mean that if, for example, you have a 15DME arc as part of some procedure, you must fly that using your DME? If that's what you mean, it's not quite correct. Essentially, you have to fly the track and profile which says on the plate, but how you do it is entirely up to you. You will notice for instance that airliners fly with reference to their nav solution, which is determined from a number of inputs duly weighted and filtered.

Another example closer to the GA world: flying a procedure once where the MAP was overhead an NDB which was inop. By your reasoning, that procedure could not be flown--in actual fact, you work out the MAP from whichever other information you have--it could be a DME reading or a GPS fix or an INS solution or your mom on the phone[*], it doesn't matter.
[*] as long as she is certified nav equipment.

I was responding to the suggestion in a previous post that ADF and VOR are not the instruments to be used for navigation in this situation. I don't agree with the earlier post

The above notwithstanding, which hopefully explains the difference between what you have to carry and what you can use, a typical example is you're cleared on a SID and as soon as you're airborne and switch over to radar, they give you a direct to some reporting point 80nm away. You could of course work out the offset angle from some VOR and fly a series of VORDME cross-cuts or whatever, but the controller is not going to be impressed one bit. In practise and in order of preference you either hit D-> on your GPS, request a vector, or decline the clearance. The last two are likely to annoy the controller, especially the latter since it now means he cannot get you out of the way as he was hoping to make space for someone else.

Bottom line, you use whatever works best to get you there safely and efficiently.

If you have done your IR in the UK, you will have noticed that the vast majority of IR instructors (+ examiners) there do not have any actual IFR experience outside their training environment so sometimes you have to take their words with a pinch of salt or two.


Dave,

Well I'm doing my PPL at the moment, 7 hours solo, first solo nav after 15, in fact, I did it today

Ah, Ok. Well, thanks for sharing your knowledge with us.

This is about someone who's just passed their PPL, and obviously hasn't been taught properly and wants advice

So that's where you come in with less than half his meagre experience and put him right. Isn't that quaint!

[Final 3 Greens]

I wouldn't say call for help straight away, if you find yourself lost, pick an area below that you can recognise and orbit it, like a football pitch... then use the methods to get Un-Lost!

Bad call my friend.

If you are lost, you do not know whether you are in or outside controlled airspace, overflying a restricted or danger area etc.

Under these circumstances, an immediate call to D&D on 121.5 is needed, to do anything else is poor airmanship as you may be interfering with other air traffic.

The only time I ever started to feel unsure of position was on a hazy day ,with no clear landmarks and I called 121.5 for a training fix.

This told me, within 10 seconds, where I was (still over a mile outside CAS) and allowed me to re-establish certain navigation.

Of course that was in the days before GPS, or I would never have got close to CAS.

So if lost, please do not b*gger around, get help.

The D&D want you to do this and so does all the traffic in your locality.

At 7 hours TT, your instructor is unlikely to have shown you the procedures yet, but when s/he does, listen carefully as it could save lives.

[PompeyPaul]

So if lost, please do not b*gger around, get help.

The D&D want you to do this and so does all the traffic in your locality.

Is there any action to be completed, if you do this, when back on the ground ? Do you have to fill in any forms or anything like that ?

[Final 3 Greens]

Assuming you have not transgressed, a training fix has no form filling associated with it, as far as I know.

[DaveD]

So that's where you come in with less than half his meagre experience and put him right. Isn't that quaint!

That's strange, I don't remember putting him right about anything, rather just replying to your bad airmanship attitude.?

[jamestkirk]

LH2

You really have no idea what you are talking about. Some of your ideas go from idiotic to childish.

Also, you wrote;

Essentially, you have to fly the track and profile which says on the plate, but how you do it is entirely up to you.

WRONG yet again. Not all airliners are RNAV approved and therefore must use raw data by law, irrelevant if you are equiped with a IRS and nav display.

If you have done your IR in the UK, you will have noticed that the vast majority of IR instructors (+ examiners) there do not have any actual IFR experience outside their training environment so sometimes you have to take their words with a pinch of salt or two.

IN WHAT WAY? Normally alot of those instructors have done more IFR flying/SPO's in demanding conditions than some airline pilots.

What on earth gives you the experience to question the knowledge of an IR instructor. Please give us your examples of when you had to take advice 'with a pinch of salt'. What type if IR flying were you doing. I guess that you have done some with a UK IR instructor.

You say you fly for fun. Then don't feel you are qaulified to give advice to people on this forum who are learning and trying to get good sound advice. Your previous comments generally show that you do not have the knowledge or attitude to do so.

[what next]

Hello!

Not all airliners are RNAV approved and therefore must use raw data by law,...

Just out of curiousity: Where and how do those airliners fly? In my part of the world BRNAV-capability (e.g. RNP-5) has been introduced as a mandatory requirement for IFR flying from 1998 on. There were some exemtions in the beginning, but now you can't go IFR flying in a Pa28 unless it has an approved BRNAV installation.

Greetings, Max

[LH2]

Hi James,

apparently the hyperbolic bits in my writing are causing you affliction

You really have no idea what you are talking about

Fine, then don't listen to me. You know how to use the "ignore" feature, do you?

Not all airliners are RNAV approved and therefore must use raw data by law,

An authoritative source for the second statement in your sentence, please? You will also note that I did not mention RNAV, only the presence of a sophisticated autopilot outer-loop control structure of some sort.

Normally alot of those instructors have done more IFR flying/SPO's in demanding conditions than some airline pilots.

I don't question that for a minute, with the way they make it difficult for themselves

What on earth gives you the experience to question the knowledge of an IR instructor

That in itself is an ingenuous question.

Then don't feel you are qaulified to give advice to people on this forum who are learning and trying to get good sound advice.

Trying to get good sound flying advice from an internet forum? Now I'm worried

Pointers to information, yes, broad opinions, ok, but advice? I would have thought only a creationist would feel brave enough to do so.

Your previous comments generally show that you do not have the knowledge or attitude to do so.

Oh, we definitely agree about the attitude, and mostly so about the knowledge.

[LH2]

What Next,

Just out of curiousity: Where and how do those airliners fly? In my part of the world BRNAV-capability (e.g. RNP-5) has been introduced as a mandatory requirement for IFR flying from 1998 on

That's a good point. I do note that 82% of European airways above FL90 have an RNAV requirement[*] and yes, anyone flying any half-serious IFR in Europe is assumed to be BRNAV capable, your typical bugsmasher included (I wonder how many UK IR instructors know that, let alone train their students for).
[*] Don't have a reference at hand for the exact number, sorry. I read it in some Eurocontrol publication.

[jamestkirk]

LH2

You keep not answering a question. So let me ask it again.

What experience do you have and what are your first hand experiences to say that you should take the advice of UK IR instructors (+ examiners)
with a pinch of salt? How much flying have you doen with them? How much of IR instructing have you done to make a comparison?

And I assume you mean CAA examiners in the above. How many have tested you?.

You keep making sweeping statements. I can ignore you but your advice may have a bearing on inexperienced people on this forum.

Can you answer the above question with honesty and without your usual copy/paste method

------------------------------

To answer someones elses question. The airliner that I fly is glass cockpit but the CAA has not approved it for RNAV dep/arr. We have an overlay but must use raw data. Yes we can follow lines but it must be backed up by the former. I have been told there are some other like that but cannot recall which types.

[LH2]

Hi James,

still on the wrong side of bed today?

You keep not answering a question. So let me ask it again.

Just to be a pedant, "keep" above implies continuity or repetition, neither of which is applicable because a) you had only asked once and, b) I did answer to you, as you will see a couple posts above.

However, to clarify a bit, I have trained in three different countries so far (France, UK, Spain) and I am in a position (not just by having trained there) to compare the training and the levels of experience and competence of "typical" instructors, as well as the flying environment as a whole. From my point of view, the UK comes in at a distant third--I have discussed the details before so won't repeat them here.

This is not to say there aren't, e.g., good instructors in the UK (mine were, actually) or crap instructors elsewhere (I could tell a few stories ), but as a whole the UK training environment (PPL and commercial, pre-type rating anyway) is absolute, worthless, pathetic rubbish (but, mind you, full of arrogant, self-aggrandising, insular provincials who think otherwise so it's self-perpetuating).

So, sorry but unless you have something else to meaningfully compare against, there is no point in even asking your question, which is why I told you that was ingenuous.

Now, on first reading you would appear to disagree with my assertion, so could you tell me why, in your view, you should not apply seasoning to certain advice from the aforementioned? Perhaps a few specific examples would help, if you would want to discuss them for the sake of argument:

* Advice to squawk 7300(?) if one gets lost (given on another thread a few days ago by some instructor)
* Not ensuring that students are fully proficient with all their nav kit--systematically, literally hours are spent explaining the fine details of how a VOR works and students spend hours in front of that RATS software or whatever it's called. Yet, not a single minute of the syllabus is dedicated to teaching those students how to use the onboard GPS, or practising with it. (seen first-hand in the UK, discussed with friends)
* "I'll teach you the speed-with-power, ROD-with-yoke method because that's what airliners use"... in a PA28 (heard from a fellow student)
* Trying to descend below MSRA in IMC (UK-trained instructor I had the displeasure to carry onboard once)
* The endless discussions here about whether such-and-such merits a PAN or a MAYDAY call, as if it's going to make the slightest bit of difference to ATC.

So what say you? Grain of salt or not?

You keep making sweeping statements.

I am offended by that sweeping statement!!!

I can ignore you but your advice may have a bearing on inexperienced people on this forum.

Oh yes, forgot the poor buggers cannot think for themselves and apply some critical thinking.

Can you answer the above question with honesty

No sorry, that would make me more enemies than you could imagine. I have given you the polite answer above

and without your usual copy/paste method

Nope. Saves typing.