What to do if your lost?
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LH2
I was specific about the question and your original statement.
So your not going to answer the question. Just your rambling nonsense.
Its actually speed with power, aim point with elevators. Used for approach and it is taught and used in many disciplines. And a very useful method. Its called 'constant aspect approach'. I have used it in light aircraft and airliners. It is used by the RAF and many EXPERIENCED insructors train it. Actually my FI instructor taught that after his 30 years in the RAF
I know you will have some strange and ridiculous reason from all your experience!!! why that is wrong but try to understand that on this forum there is a plethora of experience and you should try a be a little more open to ideas.
So, its a yes or no answer. Have you been taught by UK IR instructors, on an IR and examined by an IR examiner. You will not answer it clearly but I will take it as a no. So still confused of how you say take thier advice with a pinch of salt. Its quite an insulting statement to make.
And for your information, I got out of bed in the afternoon and cannot remember which side it was as the room was relatively dark.
So your not going to answer the question. Just your rambling nonsense.
teach you the speed-with-power, ROD-with-yoke method because that's what airliners use"... in a PA28 (heard from a fellow student)
I know you will have some strange and ridiculous reason from all your experience!!! why that is wrong but try to understand that on this forum there is a plethora of experience and you should try a be a little more open to ideas.
So, its a yes or no answer. Have you been taught by UK IR instructors, on an IR and examined by an IR examiner. You will not answer it clearly but I will take it as a no. So still confused of how you say take thier advice with a pinch of salt. Its quite an insulting statement to make.
And for your information, I got out of bed in the afternoon and cannot remember which side it was as the room was relatively dark.
Last edited by jamestkirk; 21st Jan 2009 at 22:25.
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DaveD
I want him to post his hours, licence type and nationality. He keeps calling us regional or something eqaully verbose. I bet he won't though.
And Dave. You won't end up like him/her. I have seen your posts and you give the impression of reasonality.
What LH2 does not understand is that FI's generally have a passion for keeping their students safe and want to give them the best grounding for safe flying. In my opinion , teaching how to use a GPS before teaching competance and the rewarding skill of map reading and in flight planning is dangerous at best. Technology can come after licence issue.
An FI has a responsibilty to give good, sound and correct advice while trying to be supportive. So I get a little riled by individuals who give bad advice and no experience in the discipline.
And Dave. You won't end up like him/her. I have seen your posts and you give the impression of reasonality.
What LH2 does not understand is that FI's generally have a passion for keeping their students safe and want to give them the best grounding for safe flying. In my opinion , teaching how to use a GPS before teaching competance and the rewarding skill of map reading and in flight planning is dangerous at best. Technology can come after licence issue.
An FI has a responsibilty to give good, sound and correct advice while trying to be supportive. So I get a little riled by individuals who give bad advice and no experience in the discipline.
Last edited by jamestkirk; 21st Jan 2009 at 22:19.
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RIN - booklet
In a recent copy of Flyer there was a handy booklet from the Royal Institute of Navigation (RIN) on "Visual Navigation Techniques for Pilots". Section 3.10 Uncertain of Position from this booklet provides the answer to your question and also provides guidance on what to do if lost rather than uncertain in sub-section 3.10.3.
Navigation is part of the experience of flying and dealing with the challenges it throws up is part of what makes flying fun to do. Had you thought of having a go at the Top Nav contest to build on and consolidate your PLL skills? Top Nav | Royal Institute of Navigation --
Navigation is part of the experience of flying and dealing with the challenges it throws up is part of what makes flying fun to do. Had you thought of having a go at the Top Nav contest to build on and consolidate your PLL skills? Top Nav | Royal Institute of Navigation --
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James,
Ok, so you're feeling hurt, offended, molested, insulted, aggravated, etc., etc., because in your opinion I'm talking nonsense on a web forum?
And yet, you're not only talking nonsense[*], you're actually teaching it to paying punters who don't know any better. Now that would make me feel guilty.
[*] In the opinion of some.
Now you've discussed two of the examples I've given you. Sorry you misunderstood my comment about the technique for flying the approach--it's not the specific method that I was questioning, but the reason given. My thought was along the lines of "how about you teach to fly a PA28 right now, then we'll worry about airliners during the type rating", but never mind. It was rather amusing, but you had to be there
Your comment about (not) teaching how to use a GPS, however, that is worrying, and IMO representative of the general UK view on the subject. I would be interested to know what prevents you from teaching that in addition to map reading[**] before you let them loose with a licence in their hands.
One caveat though: If you want to carry on a discussion with me (assuming your blood pressure permits
), you must use proper grammar, spelling, and syntax. I'm not having a cheap shot as such, I'm just a bit conservative on that particular issue. Things like "impression of reasonality" 
and "teaching competance" 
are rather painful to the eye.
[**] However a wonderful skill that might be.
Ok, so you're feeling hurt, offended, molested, insulted, aggravated, etc., etc., because in your opinion I'm talking nonsense on a web forum?
And yet, you're not only talking nonsense[*], you're actually teaching it to paying punters who don't know any better. Now that would make me feel guilty.
[*] In the opinion of some.
Now you've discussed two of the examples I've given you. Sorry you misunderstood my comment about the technique for flying the approach--it's not the specific method that I was questioning, but the reason given. My thought was along the lines of "how about you teach to fly a PA28 right now, then we'll worry about airliners during the type rating", but never mind. It was rather amusing, but you had to be there
Your comment about (not) teaching how to use a GPS, however, that is worrying, and IMO representative of the general UK view on the subject. I would be interested to know what prevents you from teaching that in addition to map reading[**] before you let them loose with a licence in their hands.
One caveat though: If you want to carry on a discussion with me (assuming your blood pressure permits
), you must use proper grammar, spelling, and syntax. I'm not having a cheap shot as such, I'm just a bit conservative on that particular issue. Things like "impression of reasonality" and "teaching competance" are rather painful to the eye.[**] However a wonderful skill that might be.
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LH2
YOU STILL have'nt answered the question! Either of them.[
And the reason you won't is spelling. You have confirmed your level of airmanship and knowledge with that statement.
Final3Green.
Why does'nt anyone tell me these things.
And yes your right, I will stop as its pointless.
And the reason you won't is spelling. You have confirmed your level of airmanship and knowledge with that statement.
Final3Green.
Bit of a problem on a PA28, as it has a stabilitor.
And yes your right, I will stop as its pointless.
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Its actually speed with power, aim point with elevators. Used for approach and it is taught and used in many disciplines. And a very useful method. Its called 'constant aspect approach'. I have used it in light aircraft and airliners. It is used by the RAF and many EXPERIENCED insructors train it. Actually my FI instructor taught that after his 30 years in the RAF
Taking the basic aircraft a Glider in still air you can only use the elevator to control your speed. I like to think of the elevator as another throttle which taps into the potential energy of the airframe.
Move up into a low powered and draggy aircraft and while you now have a low powered aircraft pitching for speed is more important especially with low time pilots who could get on the back of the drag curve, not have enough engine power and stall/spin.
Where the aircraft has an abundance of engine power pitching for speed becomes less relevant.
In reality it is neither pitching for speed or power for speed but a blend of the two.
I think of it as two energy supplies. One from the engine and one from the potential energy in the aircraft, Tap in with either the throttles or by pitching but it is a matter of playing with and using both.
I too like to power for speed as the dominant source but realise that in low powered aircraft with students pitching for speed can be the dominant and safer way.
As to students not being taught to use GPS that is the old way. Years ago you were not even taught to use the ADF. It was a puritan way and in my opinion a blinkered way. If its there use it.
Pace
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On an IAP I'd pitch to maintain glide path and power for speed.
On an approach into a short grass strip, I'd pitch for speed and power for glide path.
Regarding GPS - almost every single boat which navigates out of sight of land will be doing so by GPS.
On an approach into a short grass strip, I'd pitch for speed and power for glide path.
Regarding GPS - almost every single boat which navigates out of sight of land will be doing so by GPS.
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Hey Dave! You have the same birthday as me!
I would be interested to know what prevents you from teaching that in addition to map reading
He didn't say "In addition" he said "Before", and he's right, the simple navigation should really come first, because after all, it's fail-safe, when done right. (With a working clock)
And a decent compass unless the sun is shining.
No batteries needed
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Right,
I have read all seven pages and these last few of slinging pies can be covered by PM's don't you think?
In summary there are some issues I would like to highlight:-
1. Asking for re-teaching (or initial teaching) of the PPL getting lost procedure is probably in order for the original poster. HOWEVER, We're all assuming that this original poster did not get taught this, his question could have been "on top of the usual stuff what else can I do?"(Like the calls for rules of thumb which there are heaps on these forums). There have been many good answers to this question.
2. We have had people from D&D say, "Call us we will help!" yet we have posters saying, "don't call unless really needed." I think this becomes a personal preference, although I don't fly in the UK I would be inclined to call. Better to ask for help early than say a very big sorry to a very big aeroplane and filling in lots of forms! It comes down to airmanship really, "situational awareness"..Helloooo!
3. There is nothing wrong with using a GPS. Totally relying on said GPS to me is an issue, so back it up with your other skills - DR and other Nav equipment. I actually try and use DR (with a GPS backup) GPS covered or turned off means I can have fun looking outside and seeing things. After all I am paying a fair amount for the view. No I don't fly IFR.
4. I have been "geographically embarrassed" before, several times. I have used all available to me, even other aircraft in range. A bit of an experience but I bought a few guys a few beers in the bar that night. Personally I would love to be able to help out if someone else was in that position.
And that all I have to say about that.
I have read all seven pages and these last few of slinging pies can be covered by PM's don't you think?
In summary there are some issues I would like to highlight:-
1. Asking for re-teaching (or initial teaching) of the PPL getting lost procedure is probably in order for the original poster. HOWEVER, We're all assuming that this original poster did not get taught this, his question could have been "on top of the usual stuff what else can I do?"(Like the calls for rules of thumb which there are heaps on these forums). There have been many good answers to this question.
2. We have had people from D&D say, "Call us we will help!" yet we have posters saying, "don't call unless really needed." I think this becomes a personal preference, although I don't fly in the UK I would be inclined to call. Better to ask for help early than say a very big sorry to a very big aeroplane and filling in lots of forms! It comes down to airmanship really, "situational awareness"..Helloooo!
3. There is nothing wrong with using a GPS. Totally relying on said GPS to me is an issue, so back it up with your other skills - DR and other Nav equipment. I actually try and use DR (with a GPS backup) GPS covered or turned off means I can have fun looking outside and seeing things. After all I am paying a fair amount for the view. No I don't fly IFR.
4. I have been "geographically embarrassed" before, several times. I have used all available to me, even other aircraft in range. A bit of an experience but I bought a few guys a few beers in the bar that night. Personally I would love to be able to help out if someone else was in that position.
And that all I have to say about that.
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I haven't read much of this thread so far so apologies if what follows is totally irrelevant.
I have no GPS and use DR and following features to navigate. Last Sunday I flew from Stapleford to Bourn and then from Bourn to overhead Ely. Nav was a piece of cake.
Different story when I turned south to head back home. The sun was in my eyes. I missed the A10. I had changed my planned route due to advice from the "Captain" at Bourn but had not worked out a heading. I suddenly felt horribly confused.
I decided to head 200 - 210 degrees as I knew the instrument approach to Cambridge was to the East and that I wanted to be west abeam of Cambridge. I came upon a built up area but Cambridge has two "horns" heading out NE and NW - so which bit was I flying over?
I few minutes later I thought I must now be west of the city but where are the Backs? A minute or so later I spotted the Kings College Chapel.
One is seldom as lost as one thinks one is!
More trouble ahead though. I reckoned I should see Duxford or my left. Yes indeed but should I be so close to the ATZ at 2000 feet? Better gain some height.
Not a good idea! Essex Radar demanded to know who was squawking 0013 and did they know they were in Controlled airspace! Make a right turn immediately!
I did as requested and gave my details. How the hell did I get so close to Stansted? (thinking I was in the SFC-3500 feet zone). After flying west for a while I turned again south only to have ATC on my back again. Of course I was in 2500 - 3500 class D which in my panic I had forgotten about! I still didn't cotton on, thinking I was still too far east at the same time knowing that I couldn't possibly be. Where was I?
ATC confirmed that my flying at 2000 feet was now fine by them so I carried on south-south-eastish, feeling bewildered but thinking that at least I would spot the M25 if nothing else.
Just then I saw the A10 and Buntingford out the left window. I was 100% on track! I descended to 1300 feet as there's the stub near Ware but tricky to spot the actual start.
Lessons to learn
- Always work out DR headings in advance even though I probably won't need
them
- Organise charts, plogs, circuit instructions etc in a logical order
- I print out charts from Memory-Map. If blowing these up might be a good idea to print them a known scale (say 1:250000 to double the size of a 1:500000 chart) so that estimating distances is straight-forward
- Take into account the fact that looking a charts etc may be difficult due to poor visibility (low sun straight ahead obscuring the horizon) and turbulence.
- Underline vertical airspace restrictions and add notes to my plog.
and finally
- don't panic if you think you are lost - you probably aren't!
I have no GPS and use DR and following features to navigate. Last Sunday I flew from Stapleford to Bourn and then from Bourn to overhead Ely. Nav was a piece of cake.
Different story when I turned south to head back home. The sun was in my eyes. I missed the A10. I had changed my planned route due to advice from the "Captain" at Bourn but had not worked out a heading. I suddenly felt horribly confused.
I decided to head 200 - 210 degrees as I knew the instrument approach to Cambridge was to the East and that I wanted to be west abeam of Cambridge. I came upon a built up area but Cambridge has two "horns" heading out NE and NW - so which bit was I flying over?
I few minutes later I thought I must now be west of the city but where are the Backs? A minute or so later I spotted the Kings College Chapel.
One is seldom as lost as one thinks one is!
More trouble ahead though. I reckoned I should see Duxford or my left. Yes indeed but should I be so close to the ATZ at 2000 feet? Better gain some height.
Not a good idea! Essex Radar demanded to know who was squawking 0013 and did they know they were in Controlled airspace! Make a right turn immediately!
I did as requested and gave my details. How the hell did I get so close to Stansted? (thinking I was in the SFC-3500 feet zone). After flying west for a while I turned again south only to have ATC on my back again. Of course I was in 2500 - 3500 class D which in my panic I had forgotten about! I still didn't cotton on, thinking I was still too far east at the same time knowing that I couldn't possibly be. Where was I?
ATC confirmed that my flying at 2000 feet was now fine by them so I carried on south-south-eastish, feeling bewildered but thinking that at least I would spot the M25 if nothing else.
Just then I saw the A10 and Buntingford out the left window. I was 100% on track! I descended to 1300 feet as there's the stub near Ware but tricky to spot the actual start.
Lessons to learn
- Always work out DR headings in advance even though I probably won't need
them
- Organise charts, plogs, circuit instructions etc in a logical order
- I print out charts from Memory-Map. If blowing these up might be a good idea to print them a known scale (say 1:250000 to double the size of a 1:500000 chart) so that estimating distances is straight-forward
- Take into account the fact that looking a charts etc may be difficult due to poor visibility (low sun straight ahead obscuring the horizon) and turbulence.
- Underline vertical airspace restrictions and add notes to my plog.
and finally
- don't panic if you think you are lost - you probably aren't!
Lessons to learn
- Always work out DR headings in advance even though I probably won't need
them
- Organise charts, plogs, circuit instructions etc in a logical order
- I print out charts from Memory-Map. If blowing these up might be a good idea to print them a known scale (say 1:250000 to double the size of a 1:500000 chart) so that estimating distances is straight-forward
- Take into account the fact that looking a charts etc may be difficult due to poor visibility (low sun straight ahead obscuring the horizon) and turbulence.
- Underline vertical airspace restrictions and add notes to my plog.
- Always work out DR headings in advance even though I probably won't need
them
- Organise charts, plogs, circuit instructions etc in a logical order
- I print out charts from Memory-Map. If blowing these up might be a good idea to print them a known scale (say 1:250000 to double the size of a 1:500000 chart) so that estimating distances is straight-forward
- Take into account the fact that looking a charts etc may be difficult due to poor visibility (low sun straight ahead obscuring the horizon) and turbulence.
- Underline vertical airspace restrictions and add notes to my plog.
Quite so.
As I mentioned earlier, proper preflight planning prevents piss poor performance.
You might also add time marks and drift lines to your disposable map. Good system, memory map. I use a laser printer so the ink doesn't run, but probably your aeroplane is more rainproofed than mine.
But you did get unlost, so well done anyway.
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May have missed it but, in this 'getting lost' discussion, didn't notice any mention of fuel state. Getting that plane trimmed for best endurance is always a good thing when you're lost. Hopefully you won't stay lost long but, if you do, it's always better with the motor still running.