Cross channel check out!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: london uk
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Cross channel check out!
I visited one of the flying clubs at Biggin Hill today with a view to joining as i have just recently moved back to London. The one i liked had a nice fleet of clean and smart aircraft and the people i spoke with were pleasant and helpfull. I was taken out to the aircraft and shown around, after donning the yellow jacket of course
Back in the club asking the usual q's, how many hours per day if you stay away over night and currency requirements etc. I was told that if i wanted to go foreign i would need a "Cross channel check out?". I asked what one of these cross channel check outs entailed exactly. Filling out the F/P and other documents and an ELB check and how you get on with ATC in France! I pointed out that a join for right downwind for 14 is the same at L2K as any where else and they all speak English ICAO 4 or better!
I asked if they had an official cylabus for this check for me to study, obviously they didnt and so i asked if i could forgo taking the CFI on a free blast to France on the grounds that i have flown all over Europe, as a quick look in the log book would confirm. I was told to have a chat with the CFI when i come for my check ride. I really like the aircraft and a block of 5 hours worked @ £114/hr for a decent warrior with a GNS430(plus landing fee though
). So i guess i will just have to try and win the CFI over or just take him on the first trip, but at £20 odd/hr for his time i do think its a bit of a liberty!
One last point, they didnt know which local euro countries were now insisting on Mode S? Any one know the latest on that please?.
Cheers PG.
Back in the club asking the usual q's, how many hours per day if you stay away over night and currency requirements etc. I was told that if i wanted to go foreign i would need a "Cross channel check out?". I asked what one of these cross channel check outs entailed exactly. Filling out the F/P and other documents and an ELB check and how you get on with ATC in France! I pointed out that a join for right downwind for 14 is the same at L2K as any where else and they all speak English ICAO 4 or better! I asked if they had an official cylabus for this check for me to study, obviously they didnt and so i asked if i could forgo taking the CFI on a free blast to France on the grounds that i have flown all over Europe, as a quick look in the log book would confirm. I was told to have a chat with the CFI when i come for my check ride. I really like the aircraft and a block of 5 hours worked @ £114/hr for a decent warrior with a GNS430(plus landing fee though
). So i guess i will just have to try and win the CFI over or just take him on the first trip, but at £20 odd/hr for his time i do think its a bit of a liberty!One last point, they didnt know which local euro countries were now insisting on Mode S? Any one know the latest on that please?.
Cheers PG.
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Amsterdam
Posts: 4,598
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So i guess i will just have to try and win the CFI over
One last point, they didnt know which local euro countries were now insisting on Mode S? Any one know the latest on that please?.
However, each country has its own timetable for this. In the Netherlands they've made mode S mandatory above a certain FL and within certain TMZs, and the mandatory FL is coming down in stages. Other countries are no different but at the end of the day, you're going to have to look up each countries AIP, and possibly one or more associated AICs, to find out what the exact requirements are at which particular time.
So if the aircraft you're thinking of renting doesn't have mode S, be prepared for a serious additional amount of homework in planning your flight.
As a starting point, here's the Dutch AIC about mode-S for VFR flights:
Aeronautical Information Circular Series NETHERLANDS A 07/08
The same thing by the way applies to the mandatory carriage of a 406 MHz ELT: This requirement is being phased in, but each country has a different timetable.
This is the Dutch take on this subject:
http://www.ais-netherlands.nl/aim/AICB/pdf/b07-08.pdf
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: Midlands
Posts: 2,359
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
“All countries in Europe, including the UK, will require mode S, eventually, in large areas, or even all, of their airspace.”
That is not the CAA’s current policy. In France you will not require Mode S, but you will need Mode C.
Completely agree the CCC is a rip of.
Rod1
That is not the CAA’s current policy. In France you will not require Mode S, but you will need Mode C.
Completely agree the CCC is a rip of.
Rod1
Completely agree the CCC is a rip of.
Even though you may have flown across Europe they still want to verify your skills.
Every self respecting decent club should do this.
The very fact that they require it means to me that they are serious about there business.
You're willing to pay 114 GBP/hr for the airplane and not an additional 20 for the Instructor?
You might learn something, go ahead and do it.
At the very least it's a confirmation from an independent source that you skills are up to scratch.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hotel this week, hotel next week, home whenever...
Posts: 1,492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Firstly, you'll find that most schools do treat this channel check with a bit of common sense - and although I don't know which 'club' you went to I'm sure that they will approach the situation with an even handed view.
Three things though....
Firstly, their toys, their rules! If it were my investment you were taking across water into a foreign airfield you'd be convincing me you knew exactly what you were talking about and handling everything I asked you to do on the club checkout with ease, probably before I'd asked you to do it!
Secondly, logbook evidence? Means jack! Had a 14,000 hour airline captain who'd flown to every airport in Europe in his long and illustrious career come to join our group. Could he file a flight plan?....nope, Ops did that. Did he know what a gen dec was? Nope....Did he understand a VFR chart?....nope, hadn't seen one for years. Could he land the thing?....nope, technique was completely different.
Thirdly, last time I went to L2K it was a quiet weekday. Even so, the controller had us join downwind LH for 14 from the Cap even though a base join was requested. The traffic behind was given a base join, but as he was much further behind he conflicted with us as we were 3/4's of the way downwind and had to throw an orbit for spacing. Then, we conflicted with traffic joining opposite base despite being afforded priority by yon controller. In short, a hectic arrival! Have you been there at a weekend recently? Even though it is alot quieter nowadays, weekends are still extremely busy and not everybody on freq. is speaking English - you're out of the loop, not the full picture! No big deal for a seasoned aviator - but for someone who hasn't done it before it's a daunting process.
So, please, don't be so dismissive of the cross chanel check - not everybody is as experienced, as qualified or as confident!.
And yes, I actually do have a SYLLABUS for the event - to include but not limited to paperwork completion and submission (timings, estimates et al), survival equipment requirements and use, ditching procedures, effects of the 'haze' layer over water, foreign airspace usage and differences from what happens in the UK.
Bon voyage!
DD
Three things though....
Firstly, their toys, their rules! If it were my investment you were taking across water into a foreign airfield you'd be convincing me you knew exactly what you were talking about and handling everything I asked you to do on the club checkout with ease, probably before I'd asked you to do it!
Secondly, logbook evidence? Means jack! Had a 14,000 hour airline captain who'd flown to every airport in Europe in his long and illustrious career come to join our group. Could he file a flight plan?....nope, Ops did that. Did he know what a gen dec was? Nope....Did he understand a VFR chart?....nope, hadn't seen one for years. Could he land the thing?....nope, technique was completely different.
Thirdly, last time I went to L2K it was a quiet weekday. Even so, the controller had us join downwind LH for 14 from the Cap even though a base join was requested. The traffic behind was given a base join, but as he was much further behind he conflicted with us as we were 3/4's of the way downwind and had to throw an orbit for spacing. Then, we conflicted with traffic joining opposite base despite being afforded priority by yon controller. In short, a hectic arrival! Have you been there at a weekend recently? Even though it is alot quieter nowadays, weekends are still extremely busy and not everybody on freq. is speaking English - you're out of the loop, not the full picture! No big deal for a seasoned aviator - but for someone who hasn't done it before it's a daunting process.
So, please, don't be so dismissive of the cross chanel check - not everybody is as experienced, as qualified or as confident!.
And yes, I actually do have a SYLLABUS for the event - to include but not limited to paperwork completion and submission (timings, estimates et al), survival equipment requirements and use, ditching procedures, effects of the 'haze' layer over water, foreign airspace usage and differences from what happens in the UK.
Bon voyage!
DD
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Firstly, their toys, their rules!
Could he file a flight plan?....nope, Ops did that. Did he know what a gen dec was? Nope....Did he understand a VFR chart?....nope, hadn't seen one for years. Could he land the thing?....nope, technique was completely different.
No big deal for a seasoned aviator - but for someone who hasn't done it before it's a daunting process.
Seriously, if you havent done it before a cross channel "check" may not be a bad thing - but you will have to do better as to the reasons why.
The log book does mean a lot if you know how to read it - and a club check out with the pilot around the local cabbage patch will tell you whether the pilot is likely to make it across the channel without mishap.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Abroad
Posts: 1,172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The bit I would have a problem with is, did you say the CFI of a flying club wants GBP20.-/hr to fly with you?
What kind of club is that, exactly? Neither the one where I did my night qualification, nor the one where I currently fly charge for an instructor (be they PPL or CPL licenced) It's a club and we/they do it for the joy of it.
With regards to the need for a "cross-channel" checkout, as opposed to a general assessment of your flying competence, the only thought that comes to mind, from this side of the channel, is "quelle connerie!"
What kind of club is that, exactly? Neither the one where I did my night qualification, nor the one where I currently fly charge for an instructor (be they PPL or CPL licenced) It's a club and we/they do it for the joy of it.
With regards to the need for a "cross-channel" checkout, as opposed to a general assessment of your flying competence, the only thought that comes to mind, from this side of the channel, is "quelle connerie!"
Join Date: Mar 2000
Location: U.K.
Age: 46
Posts: 3,112
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not being funny, but as an ex CFI, if someone had come to me with significant European experience, then I wouldn't have dreamed of expecting a cross channel check out.
People seem to think that aircraft fly differently on the other side of the channel, when obviously they don't.
Yes French VFR charts are a bit differnt, but to be honest I know a fair few PPL's who could show most FI's how the things work rather than vice versa.
Cross channel checkouts are an utter load of b*lls frankly.
If you were a bit unsure, then of course taking an experienced person with you is a good idea, it doesn't need to be an FI though.
I've certainly never seen any insurance certificates that ask for someone to be accompanied on a European jaunt.
People seem to think that aircraft fly differently on the other side of the channel, when obviously they don't.
Yes French VFR charts are a bit differnt, but to be honest I know a fair few PPL's who could show most FI's how the things work rather than vice versa.
Cross channel checkouts are an utter load of b*lls frankly.
If you were a bit unsure, then of course taking an experienced person with you is a good idea, it doesn't need to be an FI though.
I've certainly never seen any insurance certificates that ask for someone to be accompanied on a European jaunt.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Abroad
Posts: 1,172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DD,
You would not happen to be the CFI in question, would you?
Yep. That's fair enough--entirely agree with that.
No it doesn't. From the logbook you can get a decent idea of what kind of flying the person does, how often, in what planes, etc., etc. Evidence of long-range touring on GA machines, provided that the pilot's flying standard is consistent with the logbook evidence, and his general attitude and knowledge are satisfactory should be sufficient to decide whether or not the guy flies one of your club's planes.
In the event that he's found capable of local flying but one is not quite sure how he would cope abroad, surely that can be discussed, and a trip with a more experienced member of the club can be suggested? That would of course either be shared costs, or the person accompanying gets a free lunch in France, depending on who logs the hours... but paying someone to go with you? Sorry but in my book that counts as a rip-off. Remember it's a club we're talking about--it's supposed to be a social thing, not a business.
So it gets busy? Big deal 
Again, if not sure whether the newcomer has the experience to cope with a busy GA aerodrome, sharing a first trip somewhere busy with another pilot should give him the confidence/exposure he needs. But, sorry to insist, he should not have to pay for the other guy to come along.
As for not everyone speaking English on the radio, of course not--it's France. However, although you may not have the full picture, everyone else will and the local pilots (who by and large understand English well) will take care to stay out of the way of the rosbifs as needed.
Just how a presumably non-French speaking English CFI is going to help in that situation beats me. Meanwhile, if you do happen to go down mid-channel, you've just unnecessarily killed some poor sod who didn't need to be on that plane to start with.
Quite honestly, the whole thing strikes me as nonsense. Inventing rules for the sake of rules, as usual.
Anyway, as for mode S, just check the AIP of the country(-ies) you will be flying in, and if in doubt, call the relevant air traffic services for some first hand info.
The aircraft I have flown lately either have had mode S installed for a while now, or do not have/use a transponder at all (in the Alps, where it's mostly useless anyway) so I'm not really in the loop on that one.
Three things though....
Firstly, their toys, their rules!
Secondly, logbook evidence? Means jack!
In the event that he's found capable of local flying but one is not quite sure how he would cope abroad, surely that can be discussed, and a trip with a more experienced member of the club can be suggested? That would of course either be shared costs, or the person accompanying gets a free lunch in France, depending on who logs the hours... but paying someone to go with you? Sorry but in my book that counts as a rip-off. Remember it's a club we're talking about--it's supposed to be a social thing, not a business.
Thirdly, last time I went to L2K [....] a hectic arrival! [....] weekends are still extremely busy and not everybody on freq. is speaking English - you're out of the loop
Again, if not sure whether the newcomer has the experience to cope with a busy GA aerodrome, sharing a first trip somewhere busy with another pilot should give him the confidence/exposure he needs. But, sorry to insist, he should not have to pay for the other guy to come along.As for not everyone speaking English on the radio, of course not--it's France. However, although you may not have the full picture, everyone else will and the local pilots (who by and large understand English well) will take care to stay out of the way of the rosbifs as needed.
Just how a presumably non-French speaking English CFI is going to help in that situation beats me. Meanwhile, if you do happen to go down mid-channel, you've just unnecessarily killed some poor sod who didn't need to be on that plane to start with.
Quite honestly, the whole thing strikes me as nonsense. Inventing rules for the sake of rules, as usual.
Anyway, as for mode S, just check the AIP of the country(-ies) you will be flying in, and if in doubt, call the relevant air traffic services for some first hand info.
The aircraft I have flown lately either have had mode S installed for a while now, or do not have/use a transponder at all (in the Alps, where it's mostly useless anyway) so I'm not really in the loop on that one.
Join Date: Jun 2003
Location: EuroGA.org
Posts: 13,787
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The reason we have cross-channel checkouts is that the UK PPL training machine doesn't teach the pilot how to go anywhere useful.
If there was a significant cross country element, done using radio nav (dead reckoning doesn't work well for a flight over lots of water) one would not need the CCC.
But to apply the CCC to even experienced x/country pilots is silly.
If there was a significant cross country element, done using radio nav (dead reckoning doesn't work well for a flight over lots of water) one would not need the CCC.
But to apply the CCC to even experienced x/country pilots is silly.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: london uk
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It seems the general consensus is that the CCC is a bit of a money maker for the club. Remember this would be after the hours check ride! However, i can see that a low houred pilot may find it usefull, but why not just offer a safety pilot for such instances? For example, Biggin to L2K is appx 78nm straight line or appx 90nm if you do the Dover-Cap dog leg. Not the most challenging cross country even for a newby, only difference being the fir crossing eta to calculate. Now, without the CCC the same low houred pilot could go to Denham(who ask for a local area familiarisation check thing? If renting from them
(how do they apply that to visiting pilots
)) to meet a freind say and then go to Barton, or Manchester City even, using the low level corridor and threading round quite a lot of airspace. Basically if they are not happy with your flying after the hours check the problem(s) should be discussed there and then. Having said all that. Their planes are very well kept and i did quite like the place so i will be taking a check ride with them and hope the CFI see's sense and just oversees the paperwork on the first trip to see all is in order. Thinking back to my first foreign trip, there was allways some one around who knew what to put in which box etc when doing the F/P etc etc, thats the whole point of being in a club isn't it?
Safe flying all PG.
I just had a look at google earth and just make it even easier for the newby pilot, Biggin is on a 78nm Looooooooooooong final for L2K
(how do they apply that to visiting pilots)) to meet a freind say and then go to Barton, or Manchester City even, using the low level corridor and threading round quite a lot of airspace. Basically if they are not happy with your flying after the hours check the problem(s) should be discussed there and then. Having said all that. Their planes are very well kept and i did quite like the place so i will be taking a check ride with them and hope the CFI see's sense and just oversees the paperwork on the first trip to see all is in order. Thinking back to my first foreign trip, there was allways some one around who knew what to put in which box etc when doing the F/P etc etc, thats the whole point of being in a club isn't it?Safe flying all PG.
I just had a look at google earth and just make it even easier for the newby pilot, Biggin is on a 78nm Looooooooooooong final for L2K
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hotel this week, hotel next week, home whenever...
Posts: 1,492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
LH2....
No I'm not the CFI of the school concerned......
Do people not read......?????
I said in my opening line...
and although I don't know which 'club' you went to I'm sure that they will approach the situation with an even handed view.
Then...
Firstly, their toys, their rules! If it were my investment you were taking across water into a foreign airfield you'd be convincing me you knew exactly what you were talking about and handling everything I asked you to do on the club checkout with ease, probably before I'd asked you to do it!
and, of course, you're right.....your money, your choice. Spend it where you want.
That would of course either be shared costs, or the person accompanying gets a free lunch in France, depending on who logs the hours... but paying someone to go with you? Sorry but in my book that counts as a rip-off.
Your argument has holes in it.....not paying someone, but buying them lunch...?
Remember it's a club we're talking about--it's supposed to be a social thing, not a business.
Is it...????? I work for a flying school, run as a business. We run CC checks. People expect everything for nothing these days. My boss has to show a profit or the 'nice, clean, functioning aeroplanes' that people hire won't be that way for long. £114 per hour for London...that's good. £20 per hour for an instructor, that's very good!
I can just see it now....Little Johnny goes off to L2K unbriefed and unchecked with a freshly minted PPL (which, of course he is entitled to do!) and something terrible happens - who would you all be pointing the finger at?
There was much hooting and bleeting recently because a CFI let a pilot depart into known IMC with terrible consequences. When schools take a responsible attitude and exercise a 'duty of care' we are accused of profiteering!
Make up your
minds!
No I'm not the CFI of the school concerned......
Do people not read......?????
I said in my opening line...and although I don't know which 'club' you went to I'm sure that they will approach the situation with an even handed view.
Then...
Firstly, their toys, their rules! If it were my investment you were taking across water into a foreign airfield you'd be convincing me you knew exactly what you were talking about and handling everything I asked you to do on the club checkout with ease, probably before I'd asked you to do it!
and, of course, you're right.....your money, your choice. Spend it where you want.
That would of course either be shared costs, or the person accompanying gets a free lunch in France, depending on who logs the hours... but paying someone to go with you? Sorry but in my book that counts as a rip-off.
Your argument has holes in it.....not paying someone, but buying them lunch...?
Remember it's a club we're talking about--it's supposed to be a social thing, not a business.
Is it...????? I work for a flying school, run as a business. We run CC checks. People expect everything for nothing these days. My boss has to show a profit or the 'nice, clean, functioning aeroplanes' that people hire won't be that way for long. £114 per hour for London...that's good. £20 per hour for an instructor, that's very good!
I can just see it now....Little Johnny goes off to L2K unbriefed and unchecked with a freshly minted PPL (which, of course he is entitled to do!) and something terrible happens - who would you all be pointing the finger at?
There was much hooting and bleeting recently because a CFI let a pilot depart into known IMC with terrible consequences. When schools take a responsible attitude and exercise a 'duty of care' we are accused of profiteering!
Make up your
minds!
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hotel this week, hotel next week, home whenever...
Posts: 1,492
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Pistonbroke.....
I feel your focus is not perhaps where it should be - - - you're happy to have a safety pilot.....just don't want to pay for it!
Denham ask for a club checkout, which includes local famil, because we operate within the London CTR.
Visiting pilots are (or should be) briefed by the tower when they call for PPR - that's why it says in Pooleys PPR By Telephone. You'd be amazed at how many people don't either phone first OR/AND don't fully read Pooleys and end up infringing class A. Most of the time, Heathrow Special or Northolt (whoever holds the aerospace that day) simply and quietly issue a sqwauk via Denham tower and vector the offender out of harms way...other times Departures get delayed.
Now, are we profiteering......or are we acting responsibly?
I feel your focus is not perhaps where it should be - - - you're happy to have a safety pilot.....just don't want to pay for it!
Denham ask for a club checkout, which includes local famil, because we operate within the London CTR.
Visiting pilots are (or should be) briefed by the tower when they call for PPR - that's why it says in Pooleys PPR By Telephone. You'd be amazed at how many people don't either phone first OR/AND don't fully read Pooleys and end up infringing class A. Most of the time, Heathrow Special or Northolt (whoever holds the aerospace that day) simply and quietly issue a sqwauk via Denham tower and vector the offender out of harms way...other times Departures get delayed.
Now, are we profiteering......or are we acting responsibly?
Join Date: May 2001
Location: UK
Posts: 4,631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Duchess Driver
Sorry, you have lost me.
Here is my view.
The issue with cross channel rides is you can find yourself on instruments even on surprisingly good days. This could be an issue for PPLs who have not seen these conditions before.
There are a few differences that a PPL may not have seen before. The paperwork you have mentioned. However a chat about the pocedures, which frequency you will work across channel, what to do about the FIR boundary etc can usefully explained.
Personally as part of the club check I would have a review of basic instrument skills to ensure if the pilot lost the horizon and other visual references they would cope. If they demonstrated they could I run through the paperwork and differences with them to ensure they were up to speed. I would then be happy they go.
If they already had a few trips in their log book and their club check went well I'd be happy enough in any event.
Sorry, you have lost me.
Here is my view.
The issue with cross channel rides is you can find yourself on instruments even on surprisingly good days. This could be an issue for PPLs who have not seen these conditions before.
There are a few differences that a PPL may not have seen before. The paperwork you have mentioned. However a chat about the pocedures, which frequency you will work across channel, what to do about the FIR boundary etc can usefully explained.
Personally as part of the club check I would have a review of basic instrument skills to ensure if the pilot lost the horizon and other visual references they would cope. If they demonstrated they could I run through the paperwork and differences with them to ensure they were up to speed. I would then be happy they go.
If they already had a few trips in their log book and their club check went well I'd be happy enough in any event.
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Abroad
Posts: 1,172
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hi DD,
Well, I'm sure pistongone will be glad to hear that!
Yep, the difference between being coerced into paying and a voluntary gesture of appreciation. Capisce la differenza? 
Yes it is. We're not talking about where you work, we're talking about the club Mr. Gone is looking into joining.
Ah, the Nanny Ideology, I understand now.
Is that the one from a couple years ago where a low-currency student was basically coerced into flying somewhere else for the school's convenience, with a "safety pilot" who didn't even have a valid licence? Perhaps I'm thinking of a different accident report, but if not, that seemed a pretty good case of neglecting one's 'duty of care' and profiteering, so perhaps you would care to use a better example next time? 
In any case, just to make it clear: I am accusing you and any proponents of the idea of a "compulsory cross channel check" and similar superfluous, ad-hoc "rulemaking" of not acting with your customer's safety and best interests in mind. Whether that's out of greed, fear, or stupidity I wouldn't know and it probably doesn't make a difference anyway.
Perhaps, as a training venue, it would be better to put your efforts into taking IO540's suggestion onboard and making sure your students come out properly trained in the first place.
I did my first long range trip (1800nm, three countries, three days) with 55hr TT and everyone was most supportive, plane's owner included. Mind you, I was very disappointed when we had to change plans for my PPL x-country after I learned that Morocco wouldn't let me in solo as a mere student. That was devastating, I tell you
On the other hand, being in the South of England, I presume your school wouldn't have any difficulty in programming a hop or two down to la France as part of your PPL syllabus? I'm sure your students would love it (and any decent student pays for his instructor's lunch on a landaway so there is something for everyone)
No I'm not the CFI of the school concerned
Your argument has holes in it.....not paying someone, but buying them lunch...?
Is it...????? I work for a flying school, run as a business
I can just see it now....Little Johnny goes off to L2K unbriefed and unchecked with a freshly minted PPL (which, of course he is entitled to do!) and something terrible happens - who would you all be pointing the finger at?
There was much hooting and bleeting recently because a CFI let a pilot depart into known IMC with terrible consequences. When schools take a responsible attitude and exercise a 'duty of care' we are accused of profiteering!
In any case, just to make it clear: I am accusing you and any proponents of the idea of a "compulsory cross channel check" and similar superfluous, ad-hoc "rulemaking" of not acting with your customer's safety and best interests in mind. Whether that's out of greed, fear, or stupidity I wouldn't know and it probably doesn't make a difference anyway.
Perhaps, as a training venue, it would be better to put your efforts into taking IO540's suggestion onboard and making sure your students come out properly trained in the first place.
I did my first long range trip (1800nm, three countries, three days) with 55hr TT and everyone was most supportive, plane's owner included. Mind you, I was very disappointed when we had to change plans for my PPL x-country after I learned that Morocco wouldn't let me in solo as a mere student. That was devastating, I tell you
On the other hand, being in the South of England, I presume your school wouldn't have any difficulty in programming a hop or two down to la France as part of your PPL syllabus? I'm sure your students would love it (and any decent student pays for his instructor's lunch on a landaway so there is something for everyone
)
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: london uk
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
DD i neither want or asked for a safety pilot, free or not. So i dont think its my focus that needs to be checked. I was merely suggesting that if it is considered prudent to have a pilot accompanied on a short 90 mile jaunt that happens to cross an Fir boundary when the pilot has not requested this then send someone as a safety pilot. Personally it would be a bit difficult as myself mrs p and my friend plus his wife uses up all the vacant seats and as they have agreed to pay half the bill and get lunch the unwanted guest would have to be less than 30kg all up ready to fly including the gold bars and captains hat with the obligatory corporate logo etc. I still maintain a trip from biggin to say carlisle with a stop at denham after obtaining the telephone briefing before departure to collect a friend would be more challenging and deserving of a safety pilot or instructor than a short hop over la Manche. I would also ask you to justify charging someone who has over 500hrs in the log book to go up with an instructor to learn the local area. If any pilot has passed nav'xs etc etc then why would they need you to show them something they can do themselves if arriving from another airfield without an instructor onboard or are you of the opinion that, like IO Says the PPL syllabus doesnt prepare pilots well enough to cope in the present day environment of aviation? If this is your position then may i suggest it is your focus that needs adjustment to whit the CAA and the regime they sadle the instructors of today to teach in. So when i am given the approval to go foreign after however many hoops through which i have to jump, could you tell me if i will be allowed to fly to Belgium sans mode s. As suprisingly the people i spoke with didnt know the answer and they want me to do a CCC?
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Kent, UK
Posts: 73
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Why not just do your main checkout flight via L2K? Combine the two, also enjoy a spot of lunch and a chance to chat to the CFI or FI you do it with.
If it is the "club" I think it is they only require this CCC once, and it is then valid for all times. It is all part of their hire rules, and as such I am afraid you will just have to go along with it.
If it is the "club" I think it is they only require this CCC once, and it is then valid for all times. It is all part of their hire rules, and as such I am afraid you will just have to go along with it.