postings about accidents
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I don't recall seeing any posts by relatives on any of the accident threads recently - if they don't already frequent here, then they're not likely to stumble on it by chance
Whirly and I have both said relatives do read these threads - honest we are not making it up. I have been around PPruNe to long, so I can tell you they also post here on occasions.
Relatives and friends have a strong desire to know what others are saying about their loved ones - it is human nature.
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I don't see a solution to the 'relatives' issue, Fuji.
The whole flying scene appears pretty bizzare to outsiders. The regs for a start are utterly bizzare, as is the % of time pilots spend debating the most obscure quirks of the regs. The various ways one can kill oneself, if read by the uninitiated, can make flying look incredibly dangerous. For example, most non-pilots I know think that if you stall a plane, it just tips over and plummets uncontrollably into the ground. The rather technical nature of instrument flight appears obscure and it seems impossible to achieve safe flight. Yet the same people are happy to step into a 737 and just 'trust' the pilots - as if the pilots were doing something completely different to what we do.
If/when I ever kill myself flying, I'd like the incident to be fully discussed, with no holds barred.
The whole flying scene appears pretty bizzare to outsiders. The regs for a start are utterly bizzare, as is the % of time pilots spend debating the most obscure quirks of the regs. The various ways one can kill oneself, if read by the uninitiated, can make flying look incredibly dangerous. For example, most non-pilots I know think that if you stall a plane, it just tips over and plummets uncontrollably into the ground. The rather technical nature of instrument flight appears obscure and it seems impossible to achieve safe flight. Yet the same people are happy to step into a 737 and just 'trust' the pilots - as if the pilots were doing something completely different to what we do.
If/when I ever kill myself flying, I'd like the incident to be fully discussed, with no holds barred.
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I don't see a solution to the 'relatives' issue, Fuji.
All I am really saying is it is tiresome when contirbutors simly want to invent possible scenarios when there is nothing we know about the accident that would rule such scenarios in (or out).
I have sat through an AAIB "interview" with the relatives. As you might expect they take the relatives through the events that occurred before the accident, explaining carefully on what evidence they are relying or why it is reasonable to speculate a particular event took place. The result is a balanced and professional interpretation of the events that lead or contributed to the accident.
At least we can all make an effort to achieve the same level of professionalism on a thread where we are specifically discussing a particular accident.
For example, on a recent thread there were repeated suggestions that an engine failure was the cause. In fact there was not a shred of evidence to support that position. Of course, one thing lead to another, and the pilot was clearly incpable of handling an engine failure. What a load of b*lls.
In that case because I have a particular interest I have a pretty good idea what caused the accident based on reliable evidence but that evidence is not in the public domain. I cant therefore support any speculation I might wish to contribute, and for that reason I dont see I can justify posting.
Anyway I appreciate that not everyone agrees with my views and I have more than had my say.
Last edited by Fuji Abound; 22nd Nov 2008 at 10:15.
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OK, I agree, but we don't have much in the way of facts.
The 'facts' are a closely guarded secret. Cannot get ATC data, cannot get flight plan data, even finding out the type and registration takes some digging sometimes. Cannot find historical TAFs (it seems).
All we can do is speculate and discuss hypothetical scenarios.
The 'facts' are a closely guarded secret. Cannot get ATC data, cannot get flight plan data, even finding out the type and registration takes some digging sometimes. Cannot find historical TAFs (it seems).
All we can do is speculate and discuss hypothetical scenarios.
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It may be tiresome to you but a lot of us, as shown in the posts on this thread find value in it.
As to professionalism
The AAIB and the discussions on this forum serve two different ends.
The AAIB want to determine the probable cause.
The different posters want to discuss possibilities rather than probabilities and are quite happy to to speculate as to things that may have cause an incident irrespective of whether there is any supporting evidence.
It's basic human nature, it's what makes us look at something and say "I can do better than that", it's curiosity, it's why we say why?, and I believe it's part of what makes us better pilots.
Whenever I screw up when flying I spend the next few days/weeks running through the events that led up to my cockup working out what went wrong and what I can do to make sure that it doesn't happen again. Occasionally I read something on here (irrespective of whether it is relevant to the incident being discussed) that sparks a similar train of thought - and that might possibly save my life one day.
If we stop discussing these things or posters start making all their comments nice and fluffy because it might offend someone who might read it - then we have lost a valuable resource.
As to professionalism
The AAIB and the discussions on this forum serve two different ends.
The AAIB want to determine the probable cause.
The different posters want to discuss possibilities rather than probabilities and are quite happy to to speculate as to things that may have cause an incident irrespective of whether there is any supporting evidence.
It's basic human nature, it's what makes us look at something and say "I can do better than that", it's curiosity, it's why we say why?, and I believe it's part of what makes us better pilots.
Whenever I screw up when flying I spend the next few days/weeks running through the events that led up to my cockup working out what went wrong and what I can do to make sure that it doesn't happen again. Occasionally I read something on here (irrespective of whether it is relevant to the incident being discussed) that sparks a similar train of thought - and that might possibly save my life one day.
If we stop discussing these things or posters start making all their comments nice and fluffy because it might offend someone who might read it - then we have lost a valuable resource.
Last edited by collectivefriction; 22nd Nov 2008 at 10:53.
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When an accidental death occurs the painful need to understand and find answers remains. The time it takes to get the 'facts' can sadly take years but the void this creates can be very difficult to deal with.
Is it not feasible the coulda, woulda, shoulda, opinion, debate, argument and fact allows relatives and friends, who may have little or no experience of aviation, to explore and come to understand the possibilities, from the realistic and probable to the ludicrous?
Of course people would never say to a grieving relative what they would write here, as such this medium allows for an open, honest (however misguided), full and frank exchange. To have this forum, even with its faults, must be of great benefit to those who are desperately trying to understand.
I hope you never have cause to debate it but should the unthinkable happen this would be the first place my wife would come to get more information.
Is it not feasible the coulda, woulda, shoulda, opinion, debate, argument and fact allows relatives and friends, who may have little or no experience of aviation, to explore and come to understand the possibilities, from the realistic and probable to the ludicrous?
Of course people would never say to a grieving relative what they would write here, as such this medium allows for an open, honest (however misguided), full and frank exchange. To have this forum, even with its faults, must be of great benefit to those who are desperately trying to understand.
I hope you never have cause to debate it but should the unthinkable happen this would be the first place my wife would come to get more information.
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I don't recall seeing any posts by relatives on any of the accident threads recently - if they don't already frequent here, then they're not likely to stumble on it by chance, unless directed. Granted, if they do then wish to complain they're unlikely to do it in the thread, and complain to management instead, but that's their prerogative to do so, and for the mods to take the action they deem fit (after all, it's their train set).
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The different posters want to discuss possibilities rather than probabilities and are quite happy to to speculate as to things that may have cause an incident irrespective of whether there is any supporting evidence.
I agree it is a fine line.
However, the probabilities seem a lot more relevant to me, otherwise every "accident thread" deteriorates into the usual collection of probabilities, usually followed by the pilot was a complete pi**ock, which I wouldn’t have thought actually helps anyone.
By all means discuss the possibilities, but why not take this to another thread - along the lines of "why do accidents occur"?
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usually followed by the pilot was a complete pi**ock, which I wouldn’t have thought actually helps anyone.
By all means discuss the possibilities, but why not take this to another thread - along the lines of "why do accidents occur"?
At the end of the day we each have our opinions and all are relevant and they are usually aired everytime there is an incident like this. The fact of the matter is that neither your opinion on here nor mine is likely to make one jot of difference to what happens next time. c'est la vie.
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The fact of the matter is that neither your opinion on here nor mine is likely to make one jot of difference to what happens next time
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Originally Posted by Fuji Abound
Quote:
I don't recall seeing any posts by relatives on any of the accident threads recently - if they don't already frequent here, then they're not likely to stumble on it by chance
I don't recall seeing any posts by relatives on any of the accident threads recently - if they don't already frequent here, then they're not likely to stumble on it by chance
Whirly and I have both said relatives do read these threads - honest we are not making it up. I have been around PPruNe to long, so I can tell you they also post here on occasions.
Obviously, it's perfectly reasonable for relatives to request that threads are removed should they deviate from facts and enter into the realms of unfounded criticism, however, if criticism is warranted, imho on this forum it should be able to be aired. The value of these threads should not be diminished as imho it adds to the bank of "I don't want to end up like him" checks I subconciously run through before flying.
Ultimately, the mods have final say what is or isn't on here, and I'd presume upon their judgement if that was needed. And of course, the interests and feelings of relatives are paramount, and if needed, discussion should be conducted in a more "generic" thread.
Originally Posted by Slopey
....however, if criticism is warranted, imho on this forum it should be able to be aired.
There is an enormous sifference between criticism on the day after the AAIB report is published (i.e. when we know what happened), and criticism on the day after the accident (i.e. when we don't; and neither does anyone else).
It's fairly simple - in the immediate aftermath of the accident, the following tone is reasonable:
"I wonder if X happened, given that it appears Y and Z?"
The following is not:
"What an irresponsible idiot; anyone could see that X happened, and if he hadn't done Y..."
The above often isn't said explicitly, but strongly implied by thoughtless posters. That causes unwarranted pain - why would anyone wish to do that?
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Firstly if relatives do view the contents of these forums then they have to appreciate that the posts are speculation.
I am no expert on loss but have been through the process of loosing people who are close.
Emotions will go in every direction from sadness to anger but a needed part of that process is not to be cotton woooled. "oh there is X dont talk to him about Y as he might get upset" so everyone avoids talking to you or if they do they avoid "THE SUBJECT" and that doesnt help anyone.
I am of the camp that these accidents should be dissected and torn apart because it only when such accidents occur that pilots are more open to thinking.
We tend to go through a shock stage because it is close to home.
There for the grace of god go I. None of us ever want to know that a good pilot in a good aircraft has been killed because that opens up our own vulnerability.
If its an accident pilot waiting to happen flying a load of junk then we feel more comfortable that he asked for it and its unlikely to occur to us.
In that process of taking the accident apart we too go through processes. Some of that process is to discuss every scenario real or unreal where such a tragic event could happen. In that way we become alert to the possibilities so that we can avoid a simular situation.
A year down the line when the AAIB reports are released the event is forgotten, hardly anyone reads the accident report and they are less likely to take in the messages.
When one of my best friends was killed flying into a hill covered in cloud for three weeks I didnt fly, I didnt read my aviation magazines. Then I forced myself to climb the hill to examine the crash site rather than hiding away from my fears. Then on my first flight I overflew the hill as some sort of mental fly past and a salute to him but also so that I could move on from the accident and face what was totally a pilot fault accident.
With regards to relatives I am sure in all reality with their limited knowledge that they too think the unspoken word the unsavoury possibilities that their loved one has done something stupid. Most accidents are pilot mistakes and that is fact so reading about speculative possibilities is probably helping to prepare the relative to accept their worst fears that their loved one is only human and not some invincible God.
Finally as in anything in life beware where you look if your not prepared to see what you dont want to find and that is the only advice I could give those relatives. This is a Pilot forum and if you cant come here with an open mind then dont or do when you feel you can.
Pace
I am no expert on loss but have been through the process of loosing people who are close.
Emotions will go in every direction from sadness to anger but a needed part of that process is not to be cotton woooled. "oh there is X dont talk to him about Y as he might get upset" so everyone avoids talking to you or if they do they avoid "THE SUBJECT" and that doesnt help anyone.
I am of the camp that these accidents should be dissected and torn apart because it only when such accidents occur that pilots are more open to thinking.
We tend to go through a shock stage because it is close to home.
There for the grace of god go I. None of us ever want to know that a good pilot in a good aircraft has been killed because that opens up our own vulnerability.
If its an accident pilot waiting to happen flying a load of junk then we feel more comfortable that he asked for it and its unlikely to occur to us.
In that process of taking the accident apart we too go through processes. Some of that process is to discuss every scenario real or unreal where such a tragic event could happen. In that way we become alert to the possibilities so that we can avoid a simular situation.
A year down the line when the AAIB reports are released the event is forgotten, hardly anyone reads the accident report and they are less likely to take in the messages.
When one of my best friends was killed flying into a hill covered in cloud for three weeks I didnt fly, I didnt read my aviation magazines. Then I forced myself to climb the hill to examine the crash site rather than hiding away from my fears. Then on my first flight I overflew the hill as some sort of mental fly past and a salute to him but also so that I could move on from the accident and face what was totally a pilot fault accident.
With regards to relatives I am sure in all reality with their limited knowledge that they too think the unspoken word the unsavoury possibilities that their loved one has done something stupid. Most accidents are pilot mistakes and that is fact so reading about speculative possibilities is probably helping to prepare the relative to accept their worst fears that their loved one is only human and not some invincible God.
Finally as in anything in life beware where you look if your not prepared to see what you dont want to find and that is the only advice I could give those relatives. This is a Pilot forum and if you cant come here with an open mind then dont or do when you feel you can.
Pace
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I read this thread originally a few days ago and have left if a while to collect my thoughts and try and make sense of conflicting emotions. I came here because I had heard that the family and friends of a fellow pilot had been really upset by comments on a previous thread. The poster has pulled the thread - but I believe in good faith he believed his family member / friend had "friends" on this site who would want to know of his demise and perhaps show compassion and condolence in the usual way and was shocked by the judgmentalism of some of the responses. I'm sure you'll correct me if I am way off mark here as the original thread has been pulled so I'm only going on the remaining thread. So what is so offensive about Bose's comment - he probably said what most reasonable thinking people have concluded. I have been involved in some speculation as to the accident too - and we really don't know. I think what is offensive is the lack of compassion, the judgementalism and the wisdom questioning. The subtlety of the issue I suppose is - and I ask you directly Bose - would you go up to a family member or friend of the deceased and say what you said on this site? I wouldn't. I might privately share your thoughts but my thoughts would be with the family and friends who need to hear what an amazingly unique person the deceased was - and will have the rest of their lives to ponder on the circumstances of his death. So Bose, I am asking you "Where was the love and compassion in your comment?" Is the truth as you see it always justification for comments that leave those around you battered and emotionally bruised. You say you don't care - well a lot of us do and if you look in your heart, I think you do care but maybe noone cares about you and that's what this is really about.
